SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

got it. I am glad you handled it with your kids in a constructive and respectful manner. I feel badly that they are going through this hell as well. They sound like great people and it is good you have them in IC.

Walloped, I love where you are spiritually in your response to Rain. To live through the tests that God gives us on our purpose driven journey, and the courage to replace our fears with faith. Progress, not perfection. On another note, is the polygraph holding back your healing? You sound so conflicted in reference to the truth it may provide (narrowed down to the best 3/ this week or next week/ Not sure?-I need to). Could getting this quickly behind you be a springboard to restore some trust? What kind of messages are these sending to Mrs. Walloped? Continued prayers from our family to yours, today & everyday.

If you are wondering about her change in 4-6 times per week to zero, why do you not ask her? Also if the sight of her in robe after shower a trigger, wondering if she did that at OM, then why not tell her what you are feeling and wondering to her?

I did not hold back from my wife regarding what I felt or wondered. I never yelled or called names, but for example like the trigger in the robe, my blood would boil. It helped luckily that my kids were around so frequently I had to wait a few hours to talk about it.

What is your reason for not bringing it up?

I do agree you need to tell her when you are triggering..she needs to see what she has done. Also she needs to read up on how affairs effect children - because your girls most certainly have been scarred by this.

I have another question Walloped - if you and your wife don't make it do you think she goes back to the POSOM?

Eric - Yes, it does dominate my thoughts. You know by now that I'm a process / analytical guy. My rambling posts here is, deep down, simply me trying to organzie my thoughts and make sense of them in order to determine a plan of action. Of course, next up is a post from someone telling me I can't force it and to give it time. Which intellectually I know is true and right, but there's a big part of me that doesn't like that answer.

Anyway, to answer your question, if I remain rudderless, I believe we're headed for divorce, unless my wife takes charge and provides direction if I'm too frozen to. But that's why I'm mulling MC and talking about how we are in this "can't last limbo stage." Because I feel rudderless and I am concerned that it's not helpful to anything.

It's also why I like Catlover's suggestion of doing things in baby steps. Start small. See how it goes. Build on small successes. That kind of thing.

I'll be honest with you. Right now my big concern is that you are a good guy committed to "good" (reconciliation) things, but you're being faced with a deal breaker that you're not equipped to confront.

You're going to get conflicting messages here as a number of people are generally predisposed towards a certain direction, which is one reason I'd encourage you to blaze your own trail. Advice as to WHAT to do at this point is honestly detrimental to your recovery.

I also disagree vehemently that her boyfriend was "the devil". All he did was seduce her, which is nothing more or nothing less than what happens thousands of times a day on this planet. Just because your wife was married doesn't mean that she became this magical victim. She accepted being seduced. It is as simple as the girl at the bar who accepts the guy buying her a drink. It takes two to tang0 - she knew exactly what she was doing, just as much as he knew exactly what he was doing.

Creating stories such as this isn't helpful to your recovery. You need to accept the truth head-on --- he didn't rip her clothes off and when she said that she loved him, she meant it. Occum's Razor and all.

I don't say this to hurt you, I say this because you're not a guy used to nibbling around the edges.

MWNN - No. Not at all.

wk55hn - Good question. I don't rightly know the answer to that though. Need to think about that and rectify it. Scary proposition though. But as someone said recently, it's not like I'm going to ruin my marriage over it, right?

I also disagree vehemently that her boyfriend was "the devil". All he did was seduce her, which is nothing more or nothing less than what happens thousands of times a day on this planet. Just because your wife was married doesn't mean that she became this magical victim. She accepted being seduced. It is as simple as the girl at the bar who accepts the guy buying her a drink. It takes two to tang0 - she knew exactly what she was doing, just as much as he knew exactly what he was doing.

Creating stories such as this isn't helpful to your recovery. You need to accept the truth head-on --- he didn't rip her clothes off and when she said that she loved him, she meant it.

Eric - You misread me. I in no way believe she is a victim of some magical player. I was simply describing my conceptual view of things from a certain spritual perspective. But make no mistake, we all own our choices and behaviors and yes, she chose to do what she did, eye open. I'm under no illusions and am not telling myself any stories about it. I agree 100% with everything you said quoted above.

I more meant that for Rain. Sorry for the confusion.

It's been a consistent theme and in other threads such as this over the past few months. Very damaging imho.

Blaming shit on a "devil" doesn't take into consideration free will. If we want to get Biblical (as you did above). Hell, even God himself said that his commands would be meaningless without free will

Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers.

And that sin be forgiven.

Wal, also try to slowly try to increase the intimacy in baby steps. Maybe start by holding hands for 10 seconds. Then 20s, 30s etc. Eventually, add hugging to that. Then spooning. Then cuddling. And so on and on. Take breaks for days in between if it becomes too hard. But try to do it, and both of you use that time to both bond AND to each learn how to deal with triggers (and how for her to help you when you're triggering).

Best wishes

Hobbes - Thanks. I have two key things I'm trying to work out with my IC that I've been touching on here.

1) Creating intimacy with my wife. She's willing and able. I'm the holdup. She's respecting my boundaries. How do I approach this in a way that's healthy and that I can handle. As it stands, while understandable and perhaps justifiable, it's not conducive to allow me to heal or allowing her to do her part in helping me heal. Good suggestions of incremental approaches here.

2) Communication. wk55hn is right. I have not been communicating with my wife. Not really. And definitely not about the myriad emotions that flow through me on a regular basis in response to her affair. Why? Don't know. Surivial mode? Protection against pain - afraid of vulnerability? Need to figure this out and correct it.

As an aside, I have a preliminary meeting scheduled with a poly examiner at the end of the week. We'll discuss what I'm looking for and I'll supply background and we'll come up a handful of key questions. My long list of answers during that hellish weekend, from the prior thread, will form the basis of this. Actual poly test will be next week.

Eric1 said:

I also disagree vehemently that her boyfriend was "the devil". All he did was seduce her, which is nothing more or nothing less than what happens thousands of times a day on this planet. Just because your wife was married doesn't mean that she became this magical victim. She accepted being seduced. It is as simple as the girl at the bar who accepts the guy buying her a drink. It takes two to tang0 - she knew exactly what she was doing, just as much as he knew exactly what he was doing.

Creating stories such as this isn't helpful to your recovery. You need to accept the truth head-on --- he didn't rip her clothes off and when she said that she loved him, she meant it. Occum's Razor and all.

I 100% agree with Eric and I'm glad that the OP realises it.

Walloped…

Maybe a far-out idea but since we are all spiritual…

Go google Retrouvaille.

[Edited to remove a link to Retrouvaille schedule in NY. Just use the name and add .org ]

Read about it.

Maybe going to some remote hotel, sitting with others that also need to respect anonymity and listen to expert guides and counsellors that offer tools that you can select to use or not to use…

Maybe that can get you two started.

It’s not about infidelity. It’s about communications. They are perfectly fine with you sitting in a corner and not taking part. They are fine with you leaving and never coming back. It’s your call. But many here on SI swear by it.

You might feel it’s too early but if you constantly wait you might be too late…

Ps. The OM wasn’t the devil any more than the serpent in Eden.

[This message edited by Bigger at 4:19 PM, September 21st (Monday)]

I think the suggestion of 'baby steps' if you choose to reconcile is a very good one. Try to spend more time around her, even when you don't really feel like it. Even if you trigger, and you have "mind movies" or you feel like you are getting angry or upset. As much as possible, stay in the moment if that happens, and distract yourself from these thoughts by re-directing your attention; physically stay there though in her proximity (unless you really feel like you are going to have a major blow up). In time, you will gradually de-sensitize yourself and will be able to not only feel less distraught, but even start feeling some of the old comfortable sensations around her. Talk to her. You can focus in the beginning mostly on things related to the household, and children, but in time you may even start feeling comfortable enough to talk about things that you both used to like to talk about (like every couple, there must be things that you both like to do, and shared a common interest in). This will gradually bring back the (now) lost feelings of togetherness, and of connection other than the 'absolute need' of talking about children and finances etc. If she touches you, even though you may feel like recoiling, try to not do it. She will gradually feel more accepted and less "gun shy", and you will learn to tolerate physical contact with you, and maybe this will bring back some of the old feelings of warmth and comfort that you used to have. Try to limit the discussions about the A to the MC sessions (if and when you decide for that), or if not there yet, to a specific time of the day (limited in duration) when you can talk about it, and express your pain, anger and disappointment (but as much as possible without raising your voice or using too many expletives). This way, you will be able to gradually become more comfortable around her, and, again, de-sensitize yourself from some things or images that are triggering you now. I think, from your description, that she is really trying and would be happy to be allowed to become close to you again.

You will probably have thoughts of how unfair this all is to you, and how she 'gets away with it' without much retribution, but this is how it is for the BS when they decide to R. However, she seems to indeed have at the very least a lot of empathy for you (even if you have doubt now that she really love(d) you), so her retribution is in feeling the pain that you are in, and seeing the devastation that her affair brought on the family. Again, from what I read, she is far from one of the remorseless, and entitled WW that others have dealt with, so if you decide to R (and this seems to be what you would like to do), I think she would be a good candidate for it.

On the other hand, I would not advocate for re-starting intimacy right away, for reasons I have already stated. If and when it happens, should probably be a gradual progression from an improved ability to not just tolerate her, but to feel again that you LIKE her and LOVE her. That may take some time.

But first you have to be able to be around her without feeling like you skin is crawling or you want to run away, or becoming an emotional mess. So...step by step.

longtime sucker - Excellent. Thanks. Really.

It amazes me that a BH in today's world would consider reconciliation with a cheating wife. I mean, there are counselors who specialize in infidelity, there are many books on infidelity, there are dozen's of Forum's on the Internet for Betrayed Spouses, there are a ton of studies that focus on recovery from infidelity. All of this information and yet so many men let their fear of abandonment and fear of the unknown keep them stuck in an abusive relationship. A BS never forgets - we all know this - and a BH never forgives. If he stays in the marriage he just settles for life with the betrayer because he believes it's better than life without the betrayer. I don't understand how a man can come to this conclusion.

[This message edited by theDrifter at 5:04 PM, September 21st (Monday)]

...so many men let their fear of abandonment and fear of the unknown keep them stuck in an abusive relationship...

Possibly against the forum guidelines to do this for real but just as a theoretical exercise I would be willing to bet almost any amount of money that if W is concerned about anything, it's the unknowns associated with staying in the marriage and not the unknowns associated with divorce.

Walloped - you are on a journey. Not one you wanted but one your wife sent you on. This is a process, there are no textbooks, timelines, or hard and fast rules. Your goal is to attain peace and happiness.

You need to work on you - IC, self help reading (and not just on infidelity) and intense physical fitness. You will come out of this a changed man - the old Walloped - the innocent husband is dead and gone - your wife killed him. But you can be a better you - the adversity can bring out the man in you and once and for all bury the little boy in you.

Whether you R or D - do so from a place of strength and not fear.

I see the debate still goes, off and on, about whether one should "cut their losses and leave" or give the WW another chance.

I would contend, together with many others, that the decision to stay or leave the M is something that belongs to the BS based on their own situation and desire or lack thereof to R.

As to what concerns precedents, (and past societal mores), there are plenty famous ones on both sides in history. Caesar divorced one of his 4 wives just because he heard a rumor about her, (while he was busy sleeping with various women.) Henry VIII killed Ann Boleyn on fabricated charges. On the other side, perhaps the most famous adulterer in history, Helen of Troy, was spared by her husband Menelaos after she had lived with her lover for 10 years and countless men had died because of her, and a whole city was destroyed (or such is the story...). The founder of modern Russia, Peter the Great, who was anything but squeamish or "weak" spared his adulterous wife (but had her lover's head and genitals cut off). That last part maybe unfortunately is not doable anymore indeed in the modern society.

My point is that no matter what path one chooses in such a situation, one can find oneself in illustrious company. So nobody should feel ashamed of themselves no matter which way they go.

I also think that projecting personal anger and rancor in someone else's thread is of little help to the OP, especially when the OP has a hard time dealing with their own doubt and possible feelings of inadequacy and anger as a BS. It is one thing to give a "friendly" 2x4 to someone who cannot see when they are being abused or gaslighted, to "wake them up", and a totally other thing to keep harping on these superfluous messages to "Burn the Bitch" even when the OP has as clear a head and as sharp a mind as Walloped has time and again proven to have here.

Just an opinion.

Some people are quick to jump to the D wagon. They can't imagine anyone with any self-respect to stay with a known cheater.

Well that's all fine and good. Except it's not true. Self-respect and marital recovery after cheating are not mutually exclusive polar opposites. Some recover their marriages BECAUSE of their self-respect. But it's from a position of strength, such as Walloped has demonstrated. There are others who take the doormat approach, but that is not an attribute I would subscribe to Walloped. He's cut from the same cloth as Spaceghost but open to a different outcome at some point.

So you can talk tough and throw down insults to men who look at all possibilities all you like. Until you look in the faces of your own children and see that the OTHER lesson you just taught them was the same one that the cheater taught them; that relationships are disposable.

When it's just you, you can be just as cold and calloused about the betrayal as you want to be. But all relationships go through tough times. Putting one back together after a cheating betrayal can sometimes be easier than one ripped apart by mental illness. Or addiction to alcohol or drugs.

Everybody has some unknowns coming into a new relationship. There are fewer surprises if you have a relationship that you can find a place to recover, with a spouse who's willing to do very hard things while the betrayed spouse also does the hard things. With a new relationship, you're starting from ground zero with EVERYTHING unknown.

The founder of modern Russia, Peter the Great, who was anything but squeamish or "weak" spared his adulterous wife (but had her lover's head and genitals cut off). That last part maybe unfortunately is not doable anymore indeed in the modern society.

I don't think we'll be hearing more from POS, but given where W left him I'm not sure POS wouldn't have preferred the Peter the Great option.