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Seems pretty clear that even if she's doing everything right now, it's only because she's worried about her reputation after the divorce. She was determined to do the absolute minimum effort she could get away with to keep you from divorcing her. And when you asked for more, she alternated between either taking the absolute minimum concession she thought she could get away with, or gaslighting you about how you were being unreasonable. Now you've blown up at her for dragging her feet for each small step, so she's taken a slightly larger one. But it's not because she cares about you, but because she cares about herself. She's terrified that once you divorce the truth will come out.

And the truth is she's not doing everything to help you heal. She. Is. Still. Working. With. Him.

She isn't looking for a new job. She isn't even offering to look for a new job.

You don't care anymore because you've started to really realize that SHE doesn't care anymore. Not about you, at least. She cares about not being the woman who's husband left her because she cheated on him. She cares about not being called the office whore at the water cooler.

Just leave, dude. She'll cry and tell you she loves you more than anything and how she can't picture her life without you. But deep down you'll know she's crying for herself.

Look back to when she forced herself into your lap and told you it was her fighting for your marriage. She wasnt fighting for you marriage. She was fighting you about divorcing her. She was taking the power back. You said you wanted a divorce and she's taking that decision away from you.

You're not gonna believe me. You'll tell yourself you do but deep down you'll hope she's serious. Watch her actions. Soon she'll start snapping at you again for not being over it already.

Look back to when she forced herself into your lap and told you it was her fighting for your marriage.

She was taking the power back. You said you wanted a divorce and she's taking that decision away from you.

Manipulation. Nothing but.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 8:25 PM, April 24th (Friday)]

Unfortunately you all have been correct. I have discovered the rest of this site and was looking at the healing library. I found the open letter to WS. I showed it to her and her only response was I am doing that, not that I got anything from it. Doing what she has to do whether she likes it or not was the impression I got. I also showed her the stages of infidelity and we argued about that. Fun times

What happened to the letter she was working on.

And why don’t you tell her you want to review her rebuilding plan with her tomorrow. You might even want to tell her that if finding a new job is not on there then it will be a short conversation.

Unfortunately you actually have to push yourself to have these conversations to move yourself out of limbo and toward a path.

Remind her it is she that put her job in jeopardy by having sex and an emotional relationship with someone there. She made her job and her marriage incompatible, not you. And now she has to do something about it.

I know it’s a terrible time for a new job hunt, but if she truly wants you and her family, she needs to start taking the steps to prove that. And finding a new job and an IC who specializes in Infidelity are non negotiables.

Finally, once she gives you the letter, tell her the next one needs to be a description of how she imagines you felt when you learned about her affair and how you feel now. We need to know if she can express empathy for the pain you are in.

Hang in there.

Ps: I understand the desire to just go and punch out the AP. Don’t want u to land in jail, so don’t. But it sure would be satisfying.

She got a journal and is writing in that. She wrote out the timeline. It is not as detailed as I would like but we have gone over it numerous times to clarify and get additional details.

She wrote out a rebuilding plan that includes a section for me. We have gone over it. The job thing is a continuing problem.

She also wrote the apology letter and it seems genuine but she is somehow working out all her issues by herself. Issues like low self esteem, feelings of self worth and loneliness. Not sure how she managed that.

I still think it would be nice to knock him on his a.. but know I can't. Might solve a lot of problems though or at least make me feel better for a minute

I guess thinking you knew what happened and trying to come to grips with it only to later find out it was even worse and she had been hiding that, has been tough. Like starting the whole thing over ten months later.

[This message edited by achilles1101 at 10:24 AM, April 25th (Saturday)]

I read the threads and

what I see is lying a..holes and cheating spouses. Does no one value marriage ?

She is unbelievable!!!

What will it take for you to finally pull the (figurative) trigger and get yourself out of the Hell she is put you in and you are allowing her to keep you in?????

Stay strong, and make sure you can look yourself in the mirror

So only you can know what you can live with.

If it were me, I’d not be able to stay in a relationship where my wife still works in any capacity with the man she cheated on me with. Her leaving the job is not the cure all for her cheating or a guarantee that she never does again, but it sure as hell would show me that she in part understands the ramifications of her awful and destructive choices.

And without IC there would be no future with me.

What do you think?

I’ve said before I’m all about honesty. And if it were me I’d be brutally honest about this.

My communication to her would be: “I see you have started to realize how destructive your choices have been. But I want you to know that IC (with an infidelity specialist) and getting a new job away from your boyfriend are deal breakers for me. You may not feel those things are worth having me as your husband.

If it were me in your shoes I would have done those things immediately to try and start making you feel safe again. You have chosen not to and that shows me a lot of how my feelings are not top priority for you.

I will not be in a relationship with someone who thinks it’s ok not to do those things. If and when you have worked in IC for several months and have a new job, then we can discuss whether rebuilding our relationship is a possibility. But without you even seeing the need for either of those things I’m not hopeful that’s going to happen. “

What do you think Achilles?

[This message edited by Stevesn at 11:56 AM, April 25th (Saturday)]

Sorry, but my advise is to tell her that you are going to file for divorce for adultery, have her served, and that she is more than welcome to try and win you back.

If she is serious, then she’ll will work her A$$ off trying to get you back prior to and immediately after the divorce. If she isn’t serious, well then, you are moving forward getting out of the hell she put you in.

Good luck

I think I am finally starting to see that she will do the minimum to keep this going. We had an argument this morning and it was all about me. How we could make the house and such work. Sucks , but I think I am waking up, slowly like waking up from a drunken stupor

I can't look myself in the mirror I don't like what I see

I think she will not leave her job for me, so

[This message edited by achilles1101 at 12:36 PM, April 25th (Saturday)]

So today I got the clearest answer I will get. She will not find another job because if I leave her she will have a worse job and I will not commit to staying with her. I guess that tells me where she is at

[This message edited by achilles1101 at 1:43 PM, April 25th (Saturday)]

It’s been there all along sometimes it takes awhile to see it.

So now you have to decide what you can and cannot live with. It’s your life.

I’ve told you what I would do. Others have said what they would do. But we are not living your life.

So what are your deal breakers?

If it’s getting a new job and getting weekly IC, can you live with her not doing either? Can you stay if she does only one or the other.

Imagine the next year, 5, 10 or even 20 where you have to know that she may have had work interaction with a man with whom she’s been intimate before. Can you live with that?

Perhaps if she got intensive IC, you could. Perhaps you still can’t.

If she keeps the job and does not get IC then I doubt you can go long.

I’m not a big believer in “healing herself”. Becoming a better and safe person requires, in my mind, BOTH work with an IC and on your own, not either or.

So really think about what you require. For me it would be everything on her list plus IC plus applying for new jobs. Then be clear about it to her. Doesn’t mean the new job has to be a worse job.

But if it were me in her shoes I would have applied for new jobs the day after DDay to show you I was serious about making you feel safe. That would be a big step. And I’d want you to know how important you were to me.

Let us know if you need help working thru what you really need to stay in this relationship and still be able to find happiness.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 1:55 PM, April 25th (Saturday)]

So today I got the clearest answer I will get. She will not find another job because if I leave her she will have a worse job and I will not commit to staying with her. I guess that tells me where she is at

I just reread every post you've ever made just to remind myself.

You have never really tried the 180, or at least you haven't stuck with it for a solid 24-72 hours.

Because your wife isn't doing what she needs to do for you to even seriously begin a real reconciliation process, it really looks to me like you only have two choices here. You didn't ask for them, but here they are, and you need to be aware of them:

1. Continue going on exactly like this. This will be a pretend reconciliation. Call it rug-sweeping or whatever you want, but it's not reconciliation. It *does* have the "benefit" of health insurance for you.

2. Do the 180, get the divorce papers, and file for divorce.

~

Remember: filing for divorce is not the same as *getting* a divorce. In fact, filing for D is really just one step in the 180. You can stop the D process at any time, and you may decide you want to stop the process if suddenly your wife is begging at your feet and giving you 110% of what you need for reconciliation.

If you can get some pointers here, *really* do the 180, my guess would be your WW would rethink the whole job thing, and you'd probably see a huge change in her.

Even then, it still might not be enough. That's up to you.

But I can see you're struggling with that decision. You can't do the 180 and file for D just for show; you have to be willing to walk the walk if WW won't do what you need her to do.

Again, there is no other option but #1 or #2 above for you now.

There is an option #3, though, if WW gets her shit together, gives you what you need, and you accept that and put in the work, too. There is no chance of that though, I think, unless you do #2 first. Which means a real 180 and filing for D.

[This message edited by Okokok at 3:35 PM, April 25th (Saturday)]

So today I got the clearest answer I will get. She will not find another job because if I leave her she will have a worse job and I will not commit to staying with her. I guess that tells me where she is at

This was the position she took 2 weeks ago, it is her position now, and it will be her position till you force her out of it.

As you have been told before, to save this marriage, you have to be willing to lose it, and she has to believe it.

Right now, if you have to force her to do the right thing, is it not time to walk?

Can you rebuild a relationship in which you care more about the relationship than she does? That is not a foundation to build on.

I'd say struggling with the decision is a gross understatement of what I am doing. I really don't understand what I am doing. It doesn't make any sense even to me. I could not live with the constant reminder that he is still around her. I told her that tonight and it devolved into a huge argument with me saying I wanted a divorce. The problem is I don't know if I am serious about it yet. I think I am coming around to the inevitability of it but I am not sure I am ready to walk the talk I said. It seems she understands that and is taking advantage of it. I know.... I have been slow on the uptake.

Never make an ultimatum you won’t back up.

Right now the job means more than anything else unfortunately that comes with her other man as well.

I could not live with the constant reminder that he is still around her.

This is the thing. Nobody is saying it's some sort of rule that she can't work with him; we're saying that time and time again members suffer and struggle and land on the realization that, "No way! If you are willing to put me through this torture every day just to keep this job, then you obviously don't love me." We've seen it a thousand times. The callous disregard for your understandably raw feelings really tells you all you need to know about your M. It hurts way, way too much if they continue to work together. And the disrespect is like salt in an open wound. It just never works.

I think I am coming around to the inevitability of it but I am not sure I am ready to walk the talk I said. It seems she understands that and is taking advantage of it. I know.... I have been slow on the uptake.

You seem to be doing pretty well to me. What you seem to be getting in touch with is your own right to hurt, to make demands, to matter. And if she does not rise to that challenge, it simply leaves you with nothing.

I wish you all the best. This crap hurts so badly.

Never make an ultimatum you won’t back up.

Seriously. What Marz said. Saying something and not doing/meaning it doesn't help you. Better to say nothing.

I'd say struggling with the decision is a gross understatement of what I am doing. I really don't understand what I am doing. It doesn't make any sense even to me. I could not live with the constant reminder that he is still around her.

So set me straight if I'm off-base: you're narrowed down, basically, to choosing between two basic options for yourself. Having health insurance and more money/house but not really getting out of a situation that, by your own admission, you "could not live with" vs. 180 and heading toward D, with the understanding that if things don't turn around with WW (she doesn't get a different job or do whatever else you need), then you will follow through with D. Is that right?

~

When people with experience try to explain the 180 to new BS's, it's always so time-consuming and there is always so much nuance to it...it's really tricky because a new BS just cannot wrap their heads around the fact that taking these actions help them so much and truly turn the tables. I think most BS truly fear that they will "push" their WS's away by doing the 180 and will ruin their chances at salvaging their marriage.

Always with the caveat that the 180 is not disingenuous, it's not lying, it's not a way to trick your spouse into thinking you're leaving them when you secretly never would...it really is about you getting out of infidelity.

But a very, very common side-effect of *really* doing the 180 is that the WS completely changes their tune.

That's not a guarantee, and again, I CAN'T stress enough that if you go into it with the mentality that you're tricking your WW back to "loving" you or something, you will crash and burn.

I also can't stress enough that if you do the 180 and *do* see the common side-effect of your WS saying "Wait! Hold on! I'll do anything to fix this!", that still doesn't mean that things are hunky-dory and you can ride off into the sunset. There would still be so much work to do, and it still might not work out in the end.

I told her that tonight and it devolved into a huge argument

So how are these conversations and arguments working out for you?

Imagine an alternate history where, instead of constant discussion and arguing over the past, say, 48 hours, you had just stopped talking to your wife altogether except for business stuff. If you had stopped engaging, stopped pushing to talk, stopped sharing meals with her, stopped watching TV with her, etc. Just totally going a different way.

What would have happened? Would she seek you out, ask why you're acting different?

If she did that, what if you had said something like "it's become clear to me that you cannot or will not do the one thing I truly need in order to try to move forward from this point with you. And as much as I don't like it and as much as it breaks my heart, I'm realizing I have to go in another direction, because I cannot exist in this marriage with a partner who won't work with me on this very necessary requirement for a reconciliation. I have no choice but to work toward divorce whether I like it or not. If something changes in what you're doing, I may consider stopping the process, but I may not--it may be too late by then. Either way, I'm moving in this direction, and I intend to see it through based on everything in front of me now."

What would have happened then? Would she have tried to engage you? To fight with you? Make you feel bad? Yell at you? Etc.??

What if, if she did do or say any of that, you simply said "I can see you're upset, but I don't have any choice. You're free to do anything you want now, and I won't stop you. I'm going to my room now." And then went to your room and played candy crush on your phone? Maybe start looking at those divorce papers?

What would happen then? Would she keep trying to engage? Ask questions? Fight? Try to argue? Try to discuss?

If she did, what if you said "I don't have anything to talk about unless it's about kids or finances. I'm not angry and I'm not trying to fight, but these conversations are over for me." Or even a simple "I don't want to talk about that right now," or "We can talk about that another time."

~

This is what the 180 looks like in practice.

[This message edited by Okokok at 9:21 AM, April 26th (Sunday)]

Speaking from personal experience, I did not insist strong enough that my wife leave her volunteer position and it prolonged the turmoil and almost cost our M.

If I could do it all again I would have made a lot more of an issue with it at the office since it was a faith based nonprofit...it’s since shut down after it all became public.