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It's a simple supply/demand thing, there are more than enough attractive men to go around to meet female sexual demands, and so few attractive women to meet male sexual demands that they are paid better than lawyers.

I’m not sure if I read that right.

Are you saying there are way more attractive men than attractive women in this world? Or there are not enough attractive women for all the men in the world?

Paid better than lawyers? Are you talking about high-priced (attractive) hookers?

Say 1 attractive man can find sex to have with 100 attractive women. But one non attractive man can’t find hardly any attractive women to have sex with?

Could you elaborate on this ?

I am not sure exactly what you meant.

I did not read it as there are more attractive

men than attractive women.

What was stated is that there are the top percentage

of men that have no problem getting sex from women.

They are able to get quality and quantity. For they

have what most women want.

Most men struggle to get a woman of average and

above average rating to have sex with.

Women are the gate keepers to sex. They know that

it is a suppliers market. They want the best they

can get. So they use their control of the market.

[This message edited by oldtruck at 6:56 PM, July 5th (Thursday)]

Rideitout

Are you really this smart? This is incredible.

Oldtruck pretty much said it. It's the 80/20 rule. 80 percent of women want to be with 20 percent of men. If your in that 20%, good for you. If not, then you'll have to go through some pretty intensive training if you want to know how to attract women because they are all pretty focused on that 20%. This is what the "friend zone" is all about. Women say to men "I wish I could find someone who cared about me". To a man, who, incidentally cares very much about her, which is why he's listening to her and trying get her to notice him as a sexual partner. Women, especially when they are young, look right past the "nice guys" that they stridently maintain they want to meet to all shoot for that top 20% of men who will almost certainly use/abuse them. And there's nothing wrong with that, but, not recognizing the behavior in themselves does seem somewhat intentionally obtuse. And then repeating exactly that behavior in an A, pining after a "taken" guy who's going to use/abuse them.. Well, that's kind of how the whole thing looks to me from the outside looking in. I realize it's not that way when you're in it, but, if we look at the facts of most A's, that's often exactly what happens.

And really, there's another way to look at it. Most women don't look at "attractive" as their primary criteria for sleeping with someone. If they did, there would be a similar market for high priced male escorts as there is for female. There isn't because women can sleep with a very physically attractive man if she doesn't require anything other than sex. Even a man who's rich/famous and really good looking, if an average looking woman makes it "easy enough" (IE, throwing panties on stage with their number sewn into them) they can sleep with the most attractive men. The difficult thing for women isn't finding sexual partners, it's finding sexual partners who care about them. That's the difficult thing for women. For men, it's finding sexual partners (unless they happen to be in the top tier).

There are certainly not more attractive men than women in the world. If anything, I'd say the opposite. But it doesn't matter very much because it's just not the thing that most women are picking sexual partners or long term mates based on. But a very attractive woman (like my W) pretty much will always have her pick when it comes to men for a short term/FWB/affair type relationship.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 7:58 PM, July 5th (Thursday)]

The difficult thing for women isn't finding sexual partners, it's finding sexual partners who care about them. That's the difficult thing for women. For men, it's finding sexual partners (unless they happen to be in the top tier).

And these men who find a sexual partner, they don't care if the woman care about them or not?

[This message edited by shiloe at 8:00 PM, July 5th (Thursday)]

And these men who find a sexual partner, they don't care if the woman care about them or not?

I'm gonna go out on a limb.

No.

The difficult thing for women isn't finding sexual partners, it's finding sexual partners who care about them. That's the difficult thing for women. For men, it's finding sexual partners (unless they happen to be in the top tier).

And these men who find a sexual partner, they don't care if the woman care about them or not?

I'm gonna go out on a limb.

No.

Interesting, so... If women stopped falling in love with men (i.e. caring if men care about them and getting emotionally invested in men) and only ever approached men when they wanted to have sex with them, then this would solve all the problems? No brokenhearted women, no men jumping through emotional hoops to get sex.

I don't know whether to laugh or sigh or cry. And yes, the above was somewhat sarcastic... Though I am curious to know if anyone genuinely thinks that would solve everything.

(I hope not.)

Save yourself silverhopes, run away!

The generalizations here are getting so fucking thick...

So if it’s not attractiveness, what DOES define the “top” 20% of men? Is it just $$$?

Save yourself silverhopes, run away!

The generalizations here are getting so fucking thick...

Aye, aye, over and out!

Seriously, the generalizations are making my heart hurt. I think it's the cynicism settling in.

Women, especially when they are young, look right past the "nice guys" that they stridently maintain they want to meet to all shoot for that top 20% of men who will almost certainly use/abuse them.

And the other 80% who are average only want to bang average or above average girls without mutual caring feelings which is using them also.

So in other words, when it comes down to it, 100% men are just users who want women for a bang.

That does not paint a very good image of men.

And if you’re a below average woman , you ain’t worth squat? (worth keeping around, like marriage)?

Wow, Kinda makes all women like livestock, to be graded and used.

Very, for lack of a better term, unflattering image of men.

People can change if they are motivated to do so.

I have seen zero evidence of a change when it comes to this. I don't want to have affairs, so I don't. People that do, do. I think people like this are only as safe as their next temptation, and their ability to white-knuckle.

Xhz- didn’t you just get frustrated with the generalizations? Lol

I get your experience turned out that way.

I know you will laugh and probably mock me on this but I don’t feel like I am white knuckling anything. I honestly believe that I have taken in a lot of information about myself over the past year and don’t like it. I am getting out of infidelity. But we have agreed in the past you are not who I need to prove that to. I jus wanted to call that out as a generalization that I personally do not believe to be true.

Rideitout, you have a pm

I honestly believe that I have taken in a lot of information about myself over the past year and don’t like it.

Hikingout, I think you are honest and awesome and learning and growing. And that is plenty good enough for me! I wish everyone were that good.

I don't like when things devolve into "women are only this" or "men want only that." And it has been me that has been the culprit, dragging us down there, many times. But in reality, both men and women are better than where these ugly generalizations go. I know plenty of amazing men and women.

Trying to understand the sexes does not require maligning them; they both have faults.

I think people like this are only as safe as their next temptation, and their ability to white-knuckle.

I don't feel like I am white knuckling it either.

There are plenty of people that change and get past feeding themselves when they really want to stop and fix what they were feeding. Some people just take longer. Some people love and respect themselves at a young age. Some (like myself) learn it in their 30s. I don't consider myself attractive. No where near in your top percent. Normal geeky kid with the coke bottle glasses and skinny as Hell. I did care if the woman I slept with before my wife cared about me. Otherwise, why bother. I could just jack off. My wife was out of my league and I was in the close "friend zone" for 7 years before we started dating. I fucked that up . 80/20 rule meant something different to me in the past. As in, no one can give you 100% to feed you. You marry the 80%, and have 20% on the side. So fucked up, I know. But, that was how I thought. No one leaves their spouse for 20%. Though I would say my wife is a 90 and the APs were 10%.

Maybe tmi but the girl I dated right before I met my wife was gorgeous. She worked for a video game company designing games and after I met her the first night I went out and bought 400 euro worth of games made by her competitors, took a picture of them, and sent it to her in a text telling her that I got them as a "Nicola trap" so shed want to come over and check them out.

It worked. We played them together and that progressed to us going out a few times on dates.

All was fine until we got to sex. She was pretty upfront about it - we could have sex but only when she initiated and only then. Ever. And she would decide how we had sex. She told me she liked sex but wanted to be in complete control of everything in regards to sex.

Notice she's an 'ex' girlfriend?

For awhile it was OK and even sorta fun to be her penis on demand. Sometimes shed call me at 1130 pm ask me to come over, I'd come, shed jump me, wed have sex, and I'd go back home. Other times wed go out, had sex afterwards, and I'd go back home. We would see each other 2-3/ week and were having sex 1-3/week with at least one of those her calling me late at night to come over for sex and then to leave.

Also, she had a 5 meter high wall around her heart. She was terrified at letting anyone in. Maybe shed been hurt in the past, she never told me.

But we became more than fwb and less than serious bf/gf (due to the walls around emotions and sex she erected).

Eventually it became obvious this relationship was never going to go anywhere because she wasnt going to let it, the calls for sex only became more annoying than endearing, and all those waving red flags made me decide it was better to get out if this.

So I was honest and told her why I wanted to end it. That I didn't like ALWAYS feeling like a sex toy, that I felt shed never open her heart, and that I really liked her but not enough to indefinitely tolerate the relationship as it was. She told me OK after first offering a NSA fwb relationship which I declined and we stopped talking and seeing each other that night.

A few weeks later I met the woman who became my wife. Interestingly Nicola flipped out when she found out a few months later. She told me it had all been 'a test' - of me and how serious I was about her. Keep in mind this from her was 2+ months of zero communication.

If I'd been the 'average' guy wouldn't I have found this relationship with her to be ideal?

You are right, William. I believe that people ultimately want full relationships, whether they are male or female.

I went out with a guy that I figured was a player. He had never married and was older than me, good looking, cocky, no kids. He had a motorcycle and nice car and went on great vacations with a close group of buddies. But I was rebounding and not looking for anything serious, so he seemed kind of perfect. No emotional danger or entanglements.

A couple months of casual dating go by, and he is really becoming frustrated because I am busy and simply unwilling to see him more than once every week or two. We kind of get into it, and I exasperatedly say, "But you have a great life! You do your own thing! You want for nothing! I thought you'd never be interested in a relationship!"

He looked at me with kind of a sad, serious face and said, "Everyone would like to be in a relationship, if they could find the right one."

I honestly didn't believe that until that moment. I do think that human beings were meant to partner off--for the company, the conversation, the bonding, not just the sex. And both sexes would like to make that happen, not just women.

We're all here because of emotionally unavailable people who want that partnering but also sabotage their efforts at having that partnering.

This has been one of the most enlightening, if depressing threads I've read on here to do with sexual attraction/relationships between men and women, regardless of infidelity.

Oh to not have been born 'nice'!