SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

RIO, one thing I've always been curious about. Well, one thing in two subparts: how did you learn your WW was having an A, and how did you come to know the details of her A?

That's OK, I don't charge by the question.

I found electronic correspondence between them. There wasn't much, but it was enough to know that there was an A.

The details were a combination of electronic recovery of the messages between them, GPS info from her phone, interrogation of her coupled with my "what would I do" meter.. And, while this isn't my finest moment, I got a lot of details from the OM and then later, from his BW (we were friendly and compared stories that we got from both of them). I had a bit of a unique situation though, my disclosure of the A to the right people (who I happened to know very well, the AP and I work in the same industry and it's not that big) would have been a career ender for him; he knew it, and he knew that I could and would do it. Once he realized that, he sang like a bird. 95% of what he said was true; my W has now verified it. He lied about a few details (well, let's be clear here, I choose to believe my W over him, someone is lying, I just don't know who), but the vast majority of what he told me did, in fact, turn out to be true. I used what he told me to interrogate my W, I hate that word, but sadly, that's what I did/had to do, over the course of months until I'd verified all the parts of his version of the story that mattered to me.

I was getting 95% truth from my W about the emotions and 5% truth about the physical/sexual details. From him, I got 95% truth about the physical/sexual and ??% about the emotions (I frankly, really didn't give a s**t one way or the other; if she was just another notch in the bedpost or his long lost love, made no difference to me at all). I put ?? because it's unknowable, but, if I had to peg it somewhere, I'd say he probably gave me about 80% of the truth about his emotions. I think he "spared me" the real/raw answer (dude, she was a just an easy f**k to me, what do you want me to say).

I suspect we get a lot of RIO’s fears and thoughts in here. The lingering doubts that his coworkers and erotic affair stories he reads on the internet because these are the topics he hasn’t a lot of people to air out in real life. I think he likely does empathize with his wife but there isn’t anyone around to empathize with him. He probably feels like he has gotten through the questioning for details phase and there really isn’t anything he can verify further of his wife’s story. I can understand why people are sometimes frustrated with his looped thoughts, but I have seen him make a lot of progress in understanding there are spectrums of how people feel about affair sex and some of the other things he has come off of.

That being said, RIO you do seem stuck to me, I have wondered if you have opened up to your wife yet about any of this? I feel like there is still lack of communication that you don’t see a point of putting her through but it’s better to put her through that Iran eventual divorce. There is a day where you won’t be able to stomach pushing this down any further and letting it out in sites like this isn’t going to yield the progress. I do believe a lot of the things I have told you to be true, but as I have said the person who needs to answer and explore this with you is your wife and you are not for whatever reason looking at that as an emotionally healing activity for both of you. I believe it can be, but I think you fear you will show too much of your anger. Likely what will happen is you will begin to fight about ither stuff and your anger will shine thru at those times. It will not help you then and she will not see the correlation to her own actions. Just my two cents. I feel like if you need to vent just do it. It’s hard to display empathy for someone if they aren’t giving it back. And incidentally they can’t give it back if you don’t show them your thoughts and feelings. Even if you wish they weren’t there or you fear it will cause her to crumple. Crumpling is part of the process for change with ws.

I do believe a lot of the things I have told you to be true, but as I have said the person who needs to answer and explore this with you is your wife and you are not for whatever reason looking at that as an emotionally healing activity for both of you.

Well, I know I don't talk about it much, but I have and do bring this up with my W. We talk about it often. It's how our sex life turned into what it is now, these types of conversations, explaining what it means to me and us, stuff like that. Now, I don't bring up "what this did to me" kind of stuff, I don't see the value in that. Yes, it might make me feel marginally better (even that, questionable) but it will hurt her terribly. I think she knows what she did without me putting actual words to it. But, I'd be willing to have this conversation, the only reason I haven't is because I fear it would do more harm than good.

And, the real "crux" issue, the "why him and not me", or "did you care for him more/find him sexier/better in bed/bigger d**k/etc/etc/etc" issue? Well, we've talked about it, in fact, quite a bit. But, are these questions really answerable? I mean, they are, of course, but would anyone really answer them truthfully if they want to keep their M (which I believe my W does)? Of course, those are the questions that I want answered, but, I just don't think there's any way to be even the slightest bit convinced that I'm getting "the truth" to any of them. There's too much incentive to lie and, there's no way to verify the veracity of any of those answers.

I doubt the BW worries about this kind of stuff, but, let's say she were to ask her H if my wife was "tighter" than her. Now, without getting too wildly graphic, I'm relatively sure the answer is yes; she's tiny, and I've had enough experience to know that she's "out of the norm" for most women. So, this type of question, how do you answer it? I'm sure, if asked the OM would just lie, that's the "only acceptable answer", right? But the evidence points elsewhere, lots of "premature moments" with my W, for example. Was it the best sex he ever had? IDK, but I'm sure it rates up there on the scale, I've had plenty of sex with her, and she's pretty amazing in bed; add in the danger/excitement of an A, well... See where this is going? And that's the thing, while she's the only person in the world with some of these answers, she also can't really give me an honest truth here; frankly, as much as I hate to say this, I'm not sure even I, with my "blunt truth viewpoint" on life, would answer this type of question truthfully.

So, in a way, these threads are my way of gathering "more evidence". What do other WS's (who aren't my W and therefore have no reason to lie to me) think? What did they feel and do? How do they see it now? And I feel like that gets me much closer to the "truth" than asking her, sad as that sounds, but "crowdsourcing" answers to these questions is, IMHO, more reliable than actually asking the only person who knows for sure.

And, I have asked these questions and others like it. And I've gotten the answers you'd expect, "different, not better", "smaller than you", "didn't orgasm".. The "right" answers. And they might be the REAL answers too, they really might be, but I'll never know.

RIO, I don't know if knowing those answers would even be helpful. I know for an absolute certainty that the prostitutes my XWH cheated with were younger and more attractive than I am. Tighter, LOL, well...odds aren't so good on that score. But better looking? Yeah. They were half my age and less. Probably acted their asses off too. Well, except for the one who was apparently eating fruity pebbles while she casually got him off. Yes, he told me that. He told me a lot of things in the guise of "honesty". But it isn't like he could lie about some of it. I saw their pictures online.

On another note, the guy I had my DDay ONS with was better looking, had a better body, and was larger. Had more sexual skills too. Do you think I told him that? No, I didn't. I agree about the incentive to lie. The incentive for me wasn't even "gosh, I will totally lose this great guy if I'm honest" because he had already dropped more pain and betrayal on me than I could even come close to equalling. My honest incentive to lie was that even though I hated him, I didn't want to be the person who put that in his head. Even though he deserved it. Even though I had so much in my head that I literally wanted to die. The lie wasn't to protect me. It wasn't to protect the marriage because if that had ended it right there it would have been a favor to me that I could recognize even 2 weeks out from DDay. I told him about what I did on DDay kinda hoping he would take the action that I was too shell-shocked to take and just end it. So why on earth did I lie? It was empathy, plain and simple. Even though he had caused that same pain and more in me, I couldn't hand it back. He deserved it and I couldn't do it. Maybe that was selfish of me, that I avoided having to feel that I had handed him the pain I already possessed. Regardless of whether it was selfish or unselfish and I'm not even sure myself which it is, I did lie about those things. I would only come clean now that we're apart to actively hurt him and I don't have that in me.

I doubt the BW worries about this kind of stuff, but, let's say she were to ask her H if my wife was "tighter" than her. Now, without getting too wildly graphic, I'm relatively sure the answer is yes; she's tiny, and I've had enough experience to know that she's "out of the norm" for most women. So, this type of question, how do you answer it? I'm sure, if asked the OM would just lie, that's the "only acceptable answer", right? But the evidence points elsewhere, lots of "premature moments" with my W, for example. Was it the best sex he ever had? IDK, but I'm sure it rates up there on the scale, I've had plenty of sex with her, and she's pretty amazing in bed; add in the danger/excitement of an A, well... See where this is going? And that's the thing, while she's the only person in the world with some of these answers, she also can't really give me an honest truth here; frankly, as much as I hate to say this, I'm not sure even I, with my "blunt truth viewpoint" on life, would answer this type of question truthfully.

I just want to say what I heard in this was that a big part of your wound is what the AP took from you. What he was able to experience with your wife. I know that is the case for most BS's so it's not that part is revolutionary. But, I think in your case this *might be* a situation where that's a bigger wound than what she got from him.

And, I mean it makes sense because I think you know that the stuff he was enjoying might not have been what she wanted out of it. You have seemed to get to a point where you seem to understand that and mostly believe it. So, the wound of what he got is bigger, and as you say it's what you had been wanting.

I am wondering how you overcome that obstacle? I'm thinking some other people here might have that as their bigger wound which is why I am pointing it out so maybe someone else will speak to it. But, I will point out - whatever it was he got wasn't worth leaving his own wife over. By your own accounts, he dropped your wife like a hot potato to stay and try and work on the marriage with his own wife. That was the case in my situation as well. And, I am thankful for that every day, that he walked away because I know in the end it wasn't him I really wanted anyway. So, if the sex was on a magnitude of what you feel like it would have been for him, don't you think it would have at least given him pause? It didn't. So, whatever happened between them wasn't something he had a hard time walking away from. Maybe you are over analyzing what he actually got, because of how much it took from you?

I don't know the answers, I am just trying to give you different angles to look at in the case it will help. Sorry, I know my perspective on this part would be limited, but maybe someone else can take this in a different direction even if it's to point out why I am wrong. Sometimes rolling around in these things is really the only way to process it, but you have to come at it from different angles I think, and while you are up in your own head, you probably have limited angles.

Lastly, I don't discount what you are saying about the communication with your wife. All I am saying is that there have been a lot of times I wished I could get at different points of my own husband's pain, and he has similar issues with articulating himself. He knows some of the consequences of my affair is that I have punished myself a lot, and suffered a lot over it. I think at times he has held back for similar reasons but I think get it all out and let's look at it. I realize that your wife may be different from that, but the more we have been able to drag into the light the more it has helped both of us to understand each other.

Oldtruck,

To answer your question:

brennan, there is nothing wrong with you not

wanting things that your WW did with the OM.

however I ask you, would it be wrong for a WW to

refuse to give her BH those things she gave to the

OM after D day if the BH wanted them?

I think it depends on the situation. If my WW did those things out of pleasure, lust, desire for the AP, etc. Yes, I would expect her to give those to me as well.

However, if she did those out of pain/trauma/recreation, then no, I would not expect her to give me those things. Essentially in my mind, I would be no better than her. Hurting her to ease my own pain.

RIO,

Do you not think critically in your work? Do you not have to evaluate differing opinions and choose one of many? Do you not have to talk with people and make decisions on the basis of what they say?

The point of these questions is that you probably have considerable ability to differentiate truth from fiction. You can hone those skills with additional techniques you can find on the 'net. IOW, you can figure out what's true and what's not.

How can you R if you think your W is not telling the truth? And how can you ignore all of the testimony here that A sex is generally just different, not better. And how can you ignore your experience that it takes time to build variety and great quality into sex. (I apologize if you've told us how long your W's A was; I missed it.)

And really, does the quality of your W's A sex make a difference, or do you just fear it makes a difference? (Real question.)

It's how our sex life turned into what it is now, these types of conversations, explaining what it means to me and us, stuff like that.

I applaud your honesty (with your W). (Seriously.)

Come to think of it, if she changed her approach to sex in response to your saying why you want something, you may have a winner ... and however good A sex was, you've probably made M sex better for her.

Now, I don't bring up "what this did to me" kind of stuff, I don't see the value in that. Yes, it might make me feel marginally better (even that, questionable) but it will hurt her terribly.

Gently, RIO, how would you react if your W posted that? 'What this did to me' can be a Drama Triangle, but if you talk about the feelings you felt - the grief, anger, shame, fear - you might feel more than a little better, and you'd give your W some insight. The pain she probably will feel will also probably help her grow asa person.

I think she knows what she did without me putting actual words to it. But, I'd be willing to have this conversation, the only reason I haven't is because I fear it would do more harm than good.

It might be a one-step-back-one-jump-forward type of 'harm.'

[This message edited by sisoon at 10:06 AM, October 14th (Monday)]

As to the "why him and not me" question, what sort of answer has she proffered?

At the risk of starting this particular hamster wheel all over again, RIO, I would just like to say unequivocally that some of the absolute best physically-feeling sex I have ever had was with a man with a smaller-than-average penis. Conversely, the two most physically-worst feeling sex partners I’ve ever had were larger than average. I emphasize my assessment on a purely physical level because in my assessment, I am removing the emotional component (or lack thereof) from the equation. It. Is. Not. Always. About. Penis. Size.

It. Is. Not. Always. About. Penis. Size.

Agreed. I'll go a step further and say that usually isn't even close to the reason the sex is good. It can be the reason it's bad, though. Too big can be very uncomfortable.

I don't get the sense RIO is really concerned about penis size - he just stated that his wife has a smaller than average vagina. If anything it might be that the AP was smaller and he might fear she preferred that based on her own size. I think it goes way more deeply than that. I think it's about the overall package that AP had to offer and the fact she was having an exit affair. I too had an exit affair and if anything that's been a hard thing for us to overcome.

The point of these questions is that you probably have considerable ability to differentiate truth from fiction. You can hone those skills with additional techniques you can find on the 'net. IOW, you can figure out what's true and what's not.

I used to believe that. In fact, I thought I was pretty darn good at it. But I was so blindsided by the A, and that was a real "you suck at this" moment, that I still, years later, have difficulty trusting my intuition anywhere, with her, work, friends.. It's a moderate problem for me, because I don't trust myself anymore, and, for my work, I need to trust myself, I have to speak with authority and make decisions, and, even today, I feel like I'm not as good at it as I used to be.

And really, does the quality of your W's A sex make a difference, or do you just fear it makes a difference? (Real question.)

I think she'd say "it makes no difference" (even if the OM was 1000X better than me). It's just not what she was after/wanted and it's never been that important to me. But, to me, it does make a difference; the thought that the best sex of her life was with OM is just.. Well, it's impossible to digest. Talk about a boner killer!

Come to think of it, if she changed her approach to sex in response to your saying why you want something, you may have a winner ... and however good A sex was, you've probably made M sex better for her.

I'm going to tell you something kind of funny. I always wade into these arguments because I feel like I live this situation, I am the guy who's wife went pornstar (not the only one, but one of those who's trying to R and posts a lot) with the AP and denied it from me in our marriage. But, what you said above.. I'm nearly sure it's true. I think our sex is better. I don't think the OM rocked her world and she's still pining for it. I really don't think any of that anymore. But I do fear it! Kind of like how some people are irrationally afraid of planes, driving to the airport is more dangerous and yet, some people are terrified of plane travel. And the reason is obvious, getting on a plane that's going to crash is perhaps one of the worst ways to die that many of us can fathom. You're afraid of it because, if it's true, it would be impossibly awful. I concede, and I'm pretty sure I'm right, this is, at least for me/us, now an irrational fear (I don't think it was an irrational fear right after the A though, she gave him so much more "access" that I just didn't even have a chance to compete. Imagine if a woman has "sex" with 2 men, one man she gets naked and lets him go down on her, the other man, she gives him a handjob.. Which was better for her? Well, physically, I'm going with the first guy, but it doesn't mean the 2nd guy sucked, he just didn't have a chance to show her he was good.. That's kind of how I felt right after D-day). It's a rational fear because it can/does happen, I'm sure of that. But it's irrational because, in my case, I'm pretty sure that's not what actually happened in her A. Our sex now is fantastic, it really is, and I think it's greatly eclipsed what she got/had with the OM.. Think, but I do not (and cannot) know..

And how can you ignore your experience that it takes time to build variety and great quality into sex. (I apologize if you've told us how long your W's A was; I missed it.)

Actually, that's not my experience, and I think it's a BIG part of the problem for me. I've had "porn star" one night stands or very casual relationships. In fact, I've had more of them than I've had "porn star girlfriends". It didn't take "time to build great quality into sex", in fact, if anything, that was the enemy in many of my previous relationships. Novelty was a huge turn on for me; I honestly can't remember when my first time having sex with someone wasn't a "wow". It may have happened, but something would have had to really have been "off" (not attracted to her at all, or, more likely, way too much to drink). I think that's a big part of the problem honestly, because for me, new sex = great sex. I do realize and believe, particularly female posters, who say it's not that way for them at all. In fact, I kind of laugh/cry to myself and think back to those I've had sex with before and think "Yeah, that was a wow for me, and she was probably counting the minutes until it was over". Sad, but almost undoubtedly true.

As to the "why him and not me" question, what sort of answer has she proffered?

She didn't care what he thought of her (if he thought she was a sl*t, for example, for doing some specific acts). And she did care what I thought of her. That's probably the most cognizant answer I've gotten that does kind of make sense. It also points to "need more therapy, stat!" because, while somewhat understandable as a reason, it's also so f**ked it's a little hard to wrap my head around.

It. Is. Not. Always. About. Penis. Size.

No, it's not. But I think this is just a common male, or perhaps just my, insecurity. We see people talking about it all the time, and, while intellectually I know it's not the end all be all of sex, it still bothers me. It's irrational, I know. Honestly, again, probably TMI, but if I wanted to worry about something "more real" I'd wonder more if he has a golden tongue than a 10" penis, my wife (and most women, in my experience) enjoys that a lot more than being blasted with something that can double as a baseball bat should you leave your at home on the way to the ballpark.

I get the impression that RIO is primarily concerned about getting the truth. I don't think to him it is about getting the details for the sake of getting the details; for him it is about being able to trust that his wife is being honest with him. Even if all of his worst assumptions are true, he would rather his wife honestly tell him they are true. I think he could deal with that.

His issue, as I understand it from his posts, is that he has gotten answers to all of his questions, but he is having a hard time believing them. He wants to, but his own experiences are telling him that her answers are unbelievable.

That is why I believe his issue is completely with his own emotions. Everyone has assured him that what his wife is saying is plausible and it matches their own experiences, so it's not that he doesn't understand that she could be telling the truth. It's that he is so stuck in this emotional loop he cannot move forward.

I think RIO is focused on the sex in the way that he is because it is an easy mental exercise for him and he has a great deal of experience with the subject matter. It's easier for him to focus on that than really dig into his own emotions. I get it. Been there. Done that. Still have to consciously work against doing that.

RIO, what would you say your most prevalent emotion when you think about your wife's affair is? Anger? Embarrassment? Humiliation? Something else?

You asked about working on your own emotions. What are they, and why?

She didn't care what he thought of her (if he thought she was a sl*t, for example, for doing some specific acts). And she did care what I thought of her. That's probably the most cognizant answer I've gotten that does kind of make sense.

So it was truly a classic "madonna/whore" syndrome. I've often suspected this to be the case. I've heard of this a few other times in life. She has an inner freak, but due to a lifetime of factors (often including maternal browbeating about how a "lady" or "wife" behaves), she can't let that person out in the presence of her husband.

On a lower key cousin of this same syndrome, I've known women who jump in the sack with a casual met at a bar that evening, but only if it's a dude they dont care for or respect. If the dude seems like potential serious relationship material, they hold back on the sex and make him wait. Which, from a male perspective, is 180 degrees the wrong strategy for long term relationship success. Which in turn goes to how profoundly women sometimes misunderstand mens sexuality on questions like this.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 10:56 AM, October 14th (Monday)]

Yeah, that was a wow for me, and she was probably counting the minutes until it was over". Sad, but almost undoubtedly true.

I don't think it's quite like that either. Women have sex because we want to have sex. The lady friends I talk to and myself talk about how you need a certain number of times until you kind of get to know each other in that way and feel more comfortable. But, we expect it. We know what it's going to be like. I think for those women who are more like me - we still enjoy the sex, but we enjoy it differently after we have taught you more of what we want and we are more confident in what it is you want. Less thinking means more experiencing. The early times for me are just too much thinking, but I never put it as a reflection on my partner, I just know that's how I am. But it's not like watching paint dry or anything. I am usually just actively learning more than anything.

I think RIO is focused on the sex in the way that he is because it is an easy mental exercise for him and he has a great deal of experience with the subject matter. It's easier for him to focus on that than really dig into his own emotions. I get it. Been there. Done that. Still have to consciously work against doing that.

Yes, I think it's the topic he is most comfortable with, it's the thing that got the biggest response from his pain scale, and therefore it's what he kind of swims around in. As that improves I very strongly suspect he will look around and perhaps see some other things he wants his wife to work on if he isn't already starting that process. I think he spent a lot of time in the early times just trying to save the marriage - her fog, and then her proving desire. As those things feel more secure then some of the underbelly stuff will float up I think.

If the dude seems like potential serious relationship material, they hold back on the sex and make him wait. Which, from a male perspective, is 180 degrees the wrong strategy for long term relationship success.

It's not only the wrong strategy for relationship success, it's downright awful for society and the interaction between sexes in general. Look, I might be stupid, but I'm not dumb. I saw this stuff first hand too, and then I decided that, if this is what a lot of women want, well.. I'll give it to them. Want me to be "bad relationship material", check. Want me to not respect you or care for you deeply. Check and check.

I'm sure that there are people out there who are born a**holes. That wasn't me, I really wasn't. I wanted to treat women nicely and yes, I wanted that to result in a lot of sexual opportunity (so sue/berate me, but that certainly was a goal for me). I didn't want to be an a**hole, but that's what I became in spades, to try to appeal to what more women seemed to be interested in. And it worked, again, in spades. Now, I suspect people will say "you just attracted more broken women" which may certainly be true. But it's not like I was in the paradise of lots of wonderful women in my circle to date when I was the "nice guy". I was in the desert!

I really feel, in my heart, I wasn't made an a**hole, I became one to suit the desires of the women I wanted to attract. I don't miss it AT ALL, not a single second of it do I miss treating people like that. But it's effectiveness couldn't be denied for me. In some ways, I suppose I flip it around about a woman wearing 3" heels everywhere. Probably hate every minutes of it, but, yeah, it's damn effective at getting people to look at you and making you look more attractive. Do you want it to be effective? I doubt it, I think that many would rather put on their sneaks and, you know, not forever damage their feet trying to put them into something that closely resembles a medieval torture device. But it works. If it didn't, people would stop doing it. And being a "player" or "asshole" (not sure there's much of a distinction there) works. And encourages men to exhibit terrible behavior around women.

Now, before anyone flips out, no, not all women, I realize that. But experience also, for me personally, says "more women are attracted to assholes than are attracted to nice guys". I have no idea if that holds broadly true, but, for me, it's undeniably so.

Hiking, he specifically said one of the things that goes through his mind is “did the AP have a bigger d*ck.”

Maybe he did and the AP was worse. Maybe it was smaller and better.

[This message edited by Darkness Falls at 11:15 AM, October 14th (Monday)]

Hiking, he specifically said one of the things that goes through his mind is “did the AP have a bigger d*ck.”

I think that's just a typical worry. I have no idea why, it's just burned into my mind from a young age that "size matters" no matter how much I might try to overcome it (I really DO NOT think it's true anymore, or, perhaps a tiny bit true, but other things matter a LOT more). So, yes, I did think it and still think it occasionally. It's another "I don't think it's true, but it still bothers me" thing.

 But experience also, for me personally, says "more women are attracted to assholes than are attracted to nice guys". I have no idea if that holds broadly true, but, for me, it's undeniably so.

I had a similar experience during my single period. I don't think I became an asshole in terms of being abrasive or disagreeable or combative or anything like that. But I did become a cad in terms of not caring, saying saccharine stuff I didnt mean, lying by omission (a lot) as well as actively lying, etc. And had a lot of pretty wild sex. Since people here object to the term "porn star sex", I'll date myself and say I had a lot of "Penthouse Forum" sex.

Interestingly, one weekend I borrowed a gold band from a friend and wore it on my left wring finger to see if it would have any impact on my luck. A friend saw it on Friday. "Dude, did you get married?" "Ah, no man, I'm wearing this to see if I can get laid quicker by acting like a married man." "You're sick. Truly sick."

But I got laid.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 12:20 PM, October 14th (Monday)]

I don't think I became an asshole in terms of being abrasive or disagreeable or combative or anything like that. But I did become a cad in terms of not caring, saying saccharine stuff I didnt mean, lying by omission (a lot) as well as actively lying, etc.

Yeah, that's really what I mean when I say being "an asshole". I wasn't combative either, I'd just say whatever the "next best thing" to say was. Basically whatever she wanted to hear was what I was most likely to say next. And karma, you know, it's a b*tch. Because that's exactly the routine that the OM pulled with my W. Who cares if it's true, or even resembles the truth? It gets me laid, said it.

And had a lot of pretty wild sex.

As did I. Didn't lead to much in the way of lasting relationships, but sure worked great for getting some "porn star"/"Penthouse forums" type experiences, that's for sure. In a lot of ways, my experience in this area showed me something that I still, to this day, don't understand. The less I cared, the more they cared. And the more I cared, the less they cared. I cared about my wife a whole lot, she gave no shits. I gave no shits about most of the girls I dated/slept with and wound up with legit stalkers. Makes no sense at all to me, but, that was my personal experience.