SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

because they have something to prove,

You know, I’m sure some women give up the “dirty dozen” for different reasons (like some of my friends actually enjoy anal) but in my experience as a woman, being attracted or “more” attracted to someone had nothing to do with what I was willing to do. You know what did? My desperation for them to like ME and think I was “good enough”. Usually when asked, but sometimes offered up because I thought it would make ME look hotter to them. To make me feel better about myself and secure their “love” for me.

So with that idea, A sex, or porn star sex has a lot more to do with insecurity. How worthless a wayward feels about themselves, how desperate they are for those kibbles. The OW never had an orgasm but she told (I saw) how incredible, passionate, etc. the sex was. Because she needed that picture. I know for a fact that my WH is not forward, not an initiator, and having had only me as a partner, not well-versed in the differences in a woman’s anatomy. (I am built in a way that I can easily orgasm from PIV sex, this is NOT the case for most women, but my WH didn’t know that.) So whatever pleasure she would have gotten would have been self-made and if I’m realistic, probably all in her mind. My WH’s skillz were not great when I met him and even after 20 years with me, reverted to things he’d seen in porn and not what I said I liked. BUT, at the tome, she probably told herself and him it was great bc she needed the kibbles to feel better about it all. To a man, all sex is ok as long as they get off. Women are just different.

My WH has gotten “less” than other partners, but only because he’s never asked, and I was not ever insecure enough to offer something I didn’t really enjoy. Honestly, if he’d ever asked, I would pretty much have done anything, because I loved him, but wouldn’t necessarily want them in the normal repertoire because they don’t do it for me. And porn star sex for the mans pleasure only is ok every once in a while, but real married, connected sex is more satisfying for both of us.

[This message edited by TX1995 at 10:43 AM, October 12th (Saturday)]

Hey RIO, I completely understand where you are coming from in your posts on this topic. I get why you are so focused on the sex, because I agree with you that sexual interest reflects desire. I also agree with you that, in general, women and men view sex differently based upon some immutable realities of biology. I get it brother, I really do. I appreciate your ability to lay your thoughts out there, even in the face of incoming fire.

Look brother, I agree with your assessment that your wife absolutely gave her AP a bigger sexual menu because of desire. What do you think she was desiring?

Do you think she desired him, specifically and rationally, as in "this guy is so much better than my husband RIO in every way?" Do you think she thoughtfully compared the two of you, point-by-point, and he came out ahead? And that she used a bigger sexual menu to hook him as a long-term partner?

Or do you think she just looked at him and said "this guy is so incredibly hot I have to have sex with him," and then on the way to have sex with him thought about all of the "porn star" acts she was going to do with him? And that she was saying to herself in a thoughtful way I am going to give him these things that I don't give RIO because he is so much hotter than my husband, RIO?

Or do you think she got some ego-kibbles from him and then sat down and thoughtfully said to herself "I am going to have sex with this guy, and offer him all of these things sexually because he obviously loves me more than my husband, RIO," and then then proceeded to do that because she really loved him too?

From reading all of your posts, I think you understand that none of these three scenarios is true or applicable to your wife. But brother, much of the time your posts sound like you are saying one of these three things has to be true. You are struggling to understand your wife's behavior assuming that she was logical in her actions. I think intellectually you know she wasn't acting logically, but emotionally you cannot accept that she wasn't acting logically.

I do believe, however, that her illogical actions in the affair can be understood logically. To do so you need to understand what her desire was. I believe she has told you she wasn't really in love with they guy and her affair wasn't about the sex. Do you believe her? You have had cheating spouses on here tell you their affairs weren't about love and sex. Do you believe them? I would guess that intellectually you believe those posters, you have said as much. Do you just not really believe your wife when she tells you the same thing? It's okay if you don't. Maybe she is lying. Only you can be the judge of that.

You always circle back to porn-star sex equals desire. Okay, I'll agree with you there. But what do you think your wife was desiring in her affair?

What is a drug-addicted woman desiring when she has porn-star sex with her dealer because she doesn't have any money to buy drugs? Let's go through a thought experiment. Let's say that your wife had become a drug addict and her AP had been her drug dealer. If she told you she had porn-star sex with him because she wanted the drugs, would you be able to understand that logically? Do you think you would be having the same issues that you have right now? Would you understand the porn-star sex was reflective of her desire for drugs? Or would you still think that she must have desired her drug-dealer sexually more than you because she had porn-star sex with him?

Or let's flip it around another way. Let's say that your wife had her affair but had only given her AP handjobs. Do you think you would not have been as hurt and angry because since it wasn't porn-star sex she obviously didn't desire the guy more than you? You correctly argue, in my opinion, that in an affair, generally one party is being used for sex and think the other person cares for them. If your wife had only given her AP handjobs would you be doing better right now because to you that would mean she desired him less than you and wasn't as fooled as to his real intentions?

Brother, I humbly submit that what you are dealing with are your own emotions. You need to process your feelings of rejection and emasculation. No logical understanding of her affair is going to fix those. It seems like it should, but it won't. I get the impression that you are looking for a silver bullet-type piece of reasoning that will lift the weight of your emotions from you because you will finally somehow understand why she did what she did. Your pain isn't about sex, it's about betrayal. You were betrayed by the woman you loved in the most primal way a man can be betrayed brother. I'm so sorry. It really fucking hurts, and it hurts deeply.

Simply, your wife betrayed you because she chose the easiest, cheapest, most sleazy route to make herself feel good emotionally. How does she now tell you she feels about acting this way? Do you believe her? It's okay if you don't. She gave her AP porn-star sex because that was the easiest, cheapest, most sleazy form of payment she could offer him for making her feel good emotionally.

She's giving you porn-star sex now. If sex is about desire, what does this tell you she desires? Why do you question if it is real? Is your questioning of the realness of her desire for porn-star sex with you really about your own insecurities? If so, what are you doing to address those? What logical fact are you going to learn about her affair that will fix your insecurity?

I'm with some of the other posters; you are in an emotional loop over this. I humbly suggest that you are focused on sex and her actions because by focusing on those things you can avoid dealing with your own pain. I don't think you are intentionally avoiding it, but I think this is what you are doing. So do others here.

I've just spent the past couple of hours thinking about you and writing this. I'm not trying to win an argument with you. I have had tears in my eyes while writing this. I have tears in my eyes right now. I feel your pain brother. I want you to heal. I know you are struggling. Please step back and listen to what people are saying to you. They care for you.

Focus on dealing with your emotions, brother. That is where your healing will come from.

Rio- you misunderstood- I am not saying she is being inauthentic with you- I am saying that you are afraid that’s the case. That’s in one way the affair is a mindfuck to you- i actually believe your wife probably loves you and through the emotional bonding of doing therapy with you has now opened up to you sexually. But who she was in the affair makes you question it. In the affair she didn’t feel she could say no because she needed to be perceived a certain way. She didn’t feel she had worth enough to be wanted just for who she is. But if you concede to that it would mean you would have to fear the other part- that she now doesn’t see her worth to you. It could be she has grown from her experience and has also learned to enjoy sex On a different level because she feels a connection she didn’t before. I truly believe there are women (I am one of them) whose openness to sex is relative to emotional connection.

I am a ww. Our sex life is better than ever. I am authentically enjoying it. You should ask your wife these questions. In some ways these topics that are harder for you to discuss with her, the hard thoughts you save her from, those are the things that create the emotional bond.

I am a ww. Our sex life is better than ever. I am authentically enjoying it. You should ask your wife these questions. In some ways these topics that are harder for you to discuss with her, the hard thoughts you save her from, those are the things that create the emotional bond.

As a wayward, your self experience is always going to be authentic. It is how the BS experiences the WS that is inauthentic.

In RIO's case, there is more work to do, because to him, even pre-A experiences are now seen as inauthentic.

Actions need to precede words. It is going to take a good bit of reclaiming, or second claiming in this case, for the acts done with the AP to be able to be talked about. If she enjoys them now, it's bringing the AP right into the bedroom, because he taught her how, he "broke her in." If she doesn't enjoy them, the sex now is inauthentic, and that even heightens the impact of the A more, because it's one more the WW was willing to do in the A, the A really must have been that special.

Your A, while a betrayal, did not seem to destroy that much of the relationship between you and your BH. No new ground broken in the A itself. That is not the case here. There is a lot more building that needs to be done here before some things can be talked about.

You know what did? My desperation for them to like ME and think I was “good enough”. Usually when asked, but sometimes offered up because I thought it would make ME look hotter to them. To make me feel better about myself and secure their “love” for me.

Makes sense, but, in a way, I think we're saying the same thing. I was "desperate" to get really attractive girls to like me, so I'd "do more" for them to keep them coming back. A less attractive girl, I would be as "desperate" and there, do less. But, in some ways, it's similar, I would try to make myself "look hotter" (it's different for me though, it wasn't really that, it was more "look more appealing as a partner" rather than just "hot"). So, I get where you're coming from.

To a man, all sex is ok as long as they get off. Women are just different.

Two points where I can't even offer a reasonable counter, I agree completely on both.

But brother, much of the time your posts sound like you are saying one of these three things has to be true. You are struggling to understand your wife's behavior assuming that she was logical in her actions. I think intellectually you know she wasn't acting logically, but emotionally you cannot accept that she wasn't acting logically.

And I agree with you too. Your right, I'm trying to fit it into a limited number (you presented 3, and those are certainly 3 good ones, I think there's probably a few more "logical reasons" that I'd add, but, yeah, for sure) of logical reasons to exhibit that behavior. Hotter? Better in bed? Cared for him more and just wanted to make him happy? Wanted to punish me/rub my face in it? Always wanted this, but afraid to ask/say yes to it and could be "free" with him? There are logical answers, for sure, that would apply here. And there's also just "broken" which, in a lot of these discussions, is what we come back to. Broken, in this sense, meaning acting in a way that simply cannot be understood.

I believe she has told you she wasn't really in love with they guy and her affair wasn't about the sex.

She professed love during the A. Told me she "didn't really think so" quickly after D-day. And has steadfastly said it wasn't about sex. To your follow on question, yes, I believe her, on both points.

You have had cheating spouses on here tell you their affairs weren't about love and sex. Do you believe them? I would guess that intellectually you believe those posters, you have said as much. Do you just not really believe your wife when she tells you the same thing?

Well.. Kind of funny you put it that way, but, to answer the question. Yes, I often (not always) believe it when I hear people profess that here as a WS. But, the fundamental difference is, a WS here has little/nothing to gain by lying about it to me. I PM with a few members here, we've talked it through in depth, and unless their BS is reading their PM's, I can't fathom why they would lie. Some of the open posts, I do question, but again, the "payoff" for lying to SI is pretty poor. As a community, we really don't care if the sex was great, the affair was about sex or about unicorns and rainbows. It's irrelevant to us because we're not the ones dealing with that particular affair. So, yes, I do believe many of the WS's here, but it's not something I can duplicate with my W, she has reason to lie to me where posters here do not.

But what do you think your wife was desiring in her affair?

As best I can tell, someone to tell her whatever she wanted to hear. She's pretty, smart, funny, God's gift to the world, and has no flaws. To hear someone parrot every line from the book to her in a single sentence. And to believe them, not just hear them, she wanted to think it was true, so they had to be delivered well.

If she told you she had porn-star sex with him because she wanted the drugs, would you be able to understand that logically?

Yes.

Do you think you would be having the same issues that you have right now?

Depends. If I thought that was the "real answer" and if she brought that into our bedroom, probably not. If she said "Well, I'm willing to have anal for a bag of blow, but no, don't feel like it for you" well.. I really don't know what I'd feel. It's a hard situation to imagine for me, but I do see your point. I think, in some ways, I'd feel similar to how I do now, "A line of coke is worth more than me"? And in another way, I'd think "she was a drug addict and couldn't control her actions".

I guess a better analogy for me would be dating a prostitute who did "anything" with the men she had pay her for sex. And then coming home and saying "No, I don't do that for anyone, sorry baby", and then, of course, finding out that whatever act you'd asked about was freely offered to any customer who had an extra 100 bucks. That analogy makes more sense to me, but I think that both have value. And, in both cases, it's kind of like "well, OK, I understand, you wanted the bag of blow or the 100 bucks; got it. But are either of those things worth more than me/us and our relationship together?".

Do you think you would not have been as hurt and angry because since it wasn't porn-star sex she obviously didn't desire the guy more than you?

As hurt? No way, that would have been far easier for me to deal with. Or, taking it another level removed, a pure EA, for me, would have been a speed bump. Where a pure PA (paid encounter type thing, ONS, etc) would have been the absolute worst for me. Now, before I get chastised, I'm NOT saying that this "pain scale" is for everyone. There are posters who would give their right arm for a pure PA without feelings. And there are posters like me, who would give my right arm for a pure EA without sex. But, to your question, no, it would have been much better for me if she hadn't gone full porn with him. Shoot, it's basically the only "open question" I have left, if she hadn't done that, I don't think I'd still be wondering/questioning and thinking about that aspect anymore.

How does she now tell you she feels about acting this way? Do you believe her? It's okay if you don't. She gave her AP porn-star sex because that was the easiest, cheapest, most sleazy form of payment she could offer him for making her feel good emotionally.

How does she feel now about it? Easy and sleazy. And yes, I do believe her, and I also think she'd "undo it all" if she could. She didn't get enough value out of the A to make the fallout worth it (almost nobody does, hence, IMHO, the reason that A's in general offend us all so deeply; so much pain for so little gain).

If sex is about desire, what does this tell you she desires? Why do you question if it is real? Is your questioning of the realness of her desire for porn-star sex with you really about your own insecurities? If so, what are you doing to address those? What logical fact are you going to learn about her affair that will fix your insecurity?

I question if it's real because it wasn't "freely given" as it was to the AP. She knew that "yes for him, no for you" was a dealbreaker for me. And she was right, I never put it exactly in those terms, but it was a dealbreaker, and I think that she's smart enough to know that. So I question if it's "real" because it feels forced. Much like the WH running out to buy a new diamond for his BW, she would be wise to question "is this real", particularly if she had to say to him "diamond or divorce" (which, no, I did not do, but again, anyone with a modicum of intelligence, which my wife has oodles of, wouldn't struggle to come to this conclusion). It feels less real because it wasn't "freely given" as it was to the AP. Oh yeah, it's FOR SURE about my insecurities, pot, kettle, black on that one. As to addressing them, IC, MC, reading here, posting too much, reading books.. If it's out there, I'm willing to try it. In a lot of ways, I think I've gotten much of the way there. However, there's always the little logic bomb waiting for me, am I just insecure? Or do I really suck and I'm accurately assessing myself when I think that? And the 2nd, well.. It's not impossible. No, I don't think that's it anymore, I really don't. But it could be, and knowledge of that fact does give me pause.

Focus on dealing with your emotions, brother. That is where your healing will come from.

Thank you, and thank you for the post, it really did give me a lot to think about. When I respond as I do usually, I really am not looking (most of the time) to start a fight. I'm trying to explain my viewpoint and have someone point out different ideas/flaws in thinking/experiences that have worked for them/etc. And I do appreciate it.

Anyway, I'm going to make this the last question/argument. What does "Focus on dealing with your emotions, brother" actually mean? I "deal with" my emotions by, probably not the shock of the century for many who read my posts by trying to make them go away (the bad ones), typically through rationalization and understands, and, the good ones, I focus on enhancing them by doing more of it and keeping a positive frame of mind. But, I think that's wrong, and that I'm missing something. So, what does it look like to you? What does it mean to you to "deal with your emotions"? When I finish this post, if I want to spend the next hour dealing with my emotions, what am I doing? Now, of course, there are million answers to that question, I'm really looking for what you do to help in that area/respect as a guide that I can look at and say "yes, I do that, but don't talk about it" or "no, shoot, maybe that's what I'm missing".

I am a ww. Our sex life is better than ever. I am authentically enjoying it. You should ask your wife these questions.

Well, I'll close this post with a happy note. I am a BH. Our sex life is DRAMATICALLY better than it ever was in the past. I can't really express it correctly, but it's gone from "think up 10 things you'd like to try, good, got them? They are all NO WAYS" to "think up 100 of the craziest things you've seen in porn and tell me about them, and I'll pick the top 95 and we'll do them together". Yes, there are limits, frankly, limits that are kind of mutual, and I feel even like those limits, for both of us, we could have a conversation and say, "OK, that is really important to you, I can see that, and I'll try it, but I'm afraid, so let's take baby steps together". Let me make it a bit more concrete, a "hard limit" for me is other guys, and she knows that. But I think if she came to me, and I felt like she was sincere in wanting that, I'd probably be OK with letting another guy watch us have sex and mastrubate. Sorry, that was pretty "out there" but I have a reach quite a distance to find something that's a limit for me. :)

Thanks guys, I really do mean that. I know I'm hard to deal with at times, and it just seems like I don't "get it". And I don't think I do "get it" frankly, I don't think I ever have (which is likely a big reason for the A in the first place; I know I'm not supposed to say that, but I think it's more likely than not, true).

Gettingoveritall - brilliant post, IMO. Your level of insight blows me away.

One thing I'd add is this: You wrote

She gave her AP porn-star sex because that was the easiest, cheapest, most sleazy form of payment she could offer him for making her feel good emotionally.

In my W's case, and I bet in a whole lot of cases, the truth is more like:

She gave her AP porn-star sex because that was the easiest, cheapest, most sleazy form of payment she could offer him for making her feel less bad emotionally.

That is, for many WSes (personally, I think it may be more accurate to say 'for all WSes'), an A is not a matter of winning - an A is a matter of hoping to lose less.

[This message edited by sisoon at 2:48 PM, October 12th (Saturday)]

I just realized this thread was started by MilwaukeeMike.

I just realized this thread was started by MilwaukeeMike.

Well, under a different username at the time, but yeah, it's him, good ol MM back for another round. I'm not sure what to make of him, either a guy who's in awful pain and just can't process at all, or a complete troll who likes to throw this turd and get us all fighting among ourselves. Whatever, I learned something from this thread so, I'll look past his intent and lack of engagment.

Thanks guys, I really do mean that. I know I'm hard to deal with at times, and it just seems like I don't "get it". And I don't think I do "get it" frankly, I don't think I ever have (which is likely a big reason for the A in the first place; I know I'm not supposed to say that, but I think it's more likely than not, true).

Do you think all of your SA associates "get it?" That they just go home and slap on some sensitive guy mask so their wives don't cheat on them? They got more game? What is it?

Frankly, the only thing I see is that you had your WW on a pedestal, and she's still there. You taking the blame for the A is a byproduct of that attitude, not the other way around.

Do you think all of your SA associates "get it?" That they just go home and slap on some sensitive guy mask so their wives don't cheat on them? They got more game? What is it?

Interesting question.. They are undeniably good at telling women what they want to hear, so, get it or not, maybe they pull that some routine at home. But, honestly, I think it's far less interesting an answer than that, they are wealthy and powerful men, and that's attractive to a lot of women, likely including their wives. If you take out the cheating (I realize that's kind of like taking the sugar and flour out of cake), they certainly appear to be "good husbands". Doting on their wives, buying they whatever they want, every anniversary is a new car, diamond or some other expensive and "thoughtful" (LOL) gifts.

But I think their wives, in general, see through the act and just accept it for what it is. I don't know that for sure, but, come on, seems hard for me not to think they realize it. Of course, maybe one of my W's girlfriends is saying the same exact thing about me, who knows.

Striver-

I think we misunderstand each other. First, our relationship was severely damaged so I don’t know what you mean by that.it wasn’t. We have been able to come back from it but certainly there were many times we weren’t sure if we could. If he could.

And for my part I think as telling Rio my perspective so he knows it’s possible not because I don’t understand he is having trouble knowing what was authentic. That was the purpose of the 2 or 3 posts I made leading up to the message. I get he doesn’t know, and no one knows the answer but his wife. But I think he does need to have those harder conversations they are several years out. They need to explore his feelings, he has avoided telling her a lot of it over the time he has been here.

I keep telling myself I'm not going to get involved in these discussions anymore and then I find myself sucked back in. I think because it has all become so absurd.

RIO, you missed my point about the ego. It's not just about assuming the women you had sex with when you were younger thought just like you (You admitted you were dishonest with them to get what you wanted, btw, which puts into the question the notion that you thought you were all the same. I also think you grossly misunderstand what it means when people say that females enjoy sex as much as males, another point that you keep insisting can't be true because it doesn't fit what you think you know). It's also assuming now that what you think, what you see, what you know is what everyone else thinks, sees, and knows. That's ego. I'm not trying to insult you. Everyone has an ego. Sometimes we need to check it.

The reason I say you are not really listening is because you have had multiple people say that's not the case for them. Your truth is not their truth. Those others have acknowledged that there is truth to your what you are saying for some people, just not everyone. You continue to argue your singular point, though, insisting that that is how it is.

Basically, you say, "I hear what you are saying, but it's not true because that's not how I see it." If that's not what you mean, maybe you need to change your wording. Stick to "I" statements and refrain from generalizations. Talk about your experience and how it has affected you, your CW, and your M. We really don't need to read anymore about the people you know.

There are some people that think that RIO is focused on a type of sexual encounter, that of a WW that does more in the affair than with the BH.

Surprise! Yes he is focused on the sex because it is what HE is dealing with. Yes several FWW's (benefit of the doubt. Meaning only that I have no magical power to pass out f's as in former WW or WH) have come forward and talked to RIO about how it worked for THEM.

Their cheating was not the same as RIO's wife so as valuable and thought provoking as it is, it's NOT the same. The part for RIO is that 100 FWW's that did the exact same as RIO's WW did it would not preclude that his WW did NOT think about the ego destroying things she did in the manner that he wonders about.

After all he KNOWS that she WILL, and has, LIED directly to he face and sworn that she (whatever it was that got them there) and could simply be lying again.

He is simply not yet ready to believe that somebody who could do that to him and lie about it, is to be "TRUSTED" again. Why did she lie? Obvious as the reason is, she LIED and has shown that she is WILLING to lie BUT he now knows that HE CANNOT SEE IT WHEN SHE LIE'S TO HIM!!! It's all about TRUST and it takes a very long time to see that she is not going to do it to him again.

The trouble is she could lie a thousand times BUT the trouble to him is she lies so WELL!!

JMO YMMV

brennan, there is nothing wrong with you not

wanting things that your WW did with the OM.

however I ask you, would it be wrong for a WW to

refuse to give her BH those things she gave to the

OM after D day if the BH wanted them?

But I think their wives, in general, see through the act and just accept it for what it is. I don't know that for sure, but, come on, seems hard for me not to think they realize it.

Why? Unless these women met their husbands in the same situation/habitat you know them in they're not likely to be seeing the same facets of their character. After all most people tend to marry people they think have good moral character, why would these women be any different? Are you saying it should be automatic to be prepared for infidelity if you marry someone who's powerful and/or rich?

he now knows that HE CANNOT SEE IT WHEN SHE LIE'S TO HIM!!!

A huge part of the problem, I agree here. And if you can't trust your instincts about someone, and the "evidence" is lacking or inconclusive, what the heck do you believe. "Yes, RIO, I did these things with the OM, denied them to you, but now I want to do them with you". Well, why? Antenna shooting up, sounds "fishy" to me. If I thought my "lie detector" was good for my W, I'd just think "OK, she's asking for this, and she's sincere, so, awsome, let's get freaky". But this is harder, because the words lost meaning, now I have to examine other things to make decisions.. And I don't know if I'm doing that well today, and as you point out, I'm proven "bad at it" from how easily I was fooled in the A (and, if we're just talking about sex, for the years we were together before that).

It's not just about assuming the women you had sex with when you were younger thought just like you

I didn't assume that, I was told/taught that. Not that everyone thinks alike, but was very explicitly taught that "men and women both enjoy sex the same". "Women like to have NSA sex too". And those statements, I agree, even today, they are true as written. Problem is, if you dig into them, it doesn't mean "all women" (or even most), it means "some". But this wasn't some blind assumption I was working against here, it was things I was told by adults as a young man (primarily my parents, but also sex ed in school, for example).

Years ago, in my grandfathers basement, I stumbled upon a "romance a dating guide for the modern man". I wish I had the book, and I wish I could remember the title, sadly, both are lost to history. Anyway, this book was always an interesting read at grandpa's; first off, it described sex (nothing all that interesting there today, but as a young guy, it was pretty interesting to me, including line drawings of a vagina!!) in some detail. But the really interesting part was that book talking through the "man's responsibility" in sex. It was basically, "all the responsibility" was the man's; it's up to you. Now, this book would be seen as wildly offensive today, it was entirely about the male perspective on sex, but it was basically saying "Don't shoplift the p*ssy". It's much more valuable to you (sex) than it is to her, so make sure your offering something valuable in return, your commitment, a wedding, children together.

As I got older, reading that book, I often thought to myself, "Someone needs to phone up this author and explain to him that women like NSA just as much as men". I'm not shoplifting anything, these women want sex just as much as I do, they just want to be pursued for it.

But now, looking back, I think that my life would have a lot less regrets in it if I'd followed that books advice a little closer. No, we're not all the same, and being aware of those differences and NOT doing things to exploit them, well, that's the mark of a good man. I have NO doubt at all that there's a 1940's version of that book for women that had the same guidance in reverse, "Don't use sex to get what you want from your H/men" and some version of "Sex is your gift to give men".

Fantastically quaint, right? But is there wisdom in it? A the time, outside of the line drawings, I felt the answer was obvious, "No, this isn't the way men/women are, they want sex just as much as we do!". Today? Well, I think there was more value in the message of that book than I saw decades ago. The message isn't actually all one or the other, it's a blended message, it's some of both. Yes, women do greatly enjoy sex, but differently than men, and they, in general, hate having sex "shoplifted". That said, this particular point, I still wonder a little bit; an A is pretty much inviting the local gang into the convenience store and the clerk going on break while they browse; no, they're not going to pay, they're going to rob you blind. But, even with that, I still think a lot of the message of that book was right, I would have done far better in not harming other people if I'd internalized that message rather than the message I did internalize.

Are you saying it should be automatic to be prepared for infidelity if you marry someone who's powerful and/or rich?

I'm saying that you should be "more prepared" for it, yes. Powerful, rich, travel extensively, male dominated workplace, typically younger industry. Yeah, if you marry someone in that situation, I think it's entirely reasonable that you'd be more concerned about an A. This doesn't make it right or OK, but there are certain things that tip the scales one way or the other. I'm friends with a guy who married a stripper, she's very attractive, free with her body (even today) and he's a LOT older than her. Funny thing, AFAIK, she's not cheated on him that I know of (I actually think they are big into the scene, so, I'm sure that changes things a bit; if nothing else, blurs the line for what is/isn't cheating), but, if she did, I think that most people would think (and not say) well, what did you expect? I know before my W's A that's what I would have thought, and, sadly, even today, it's hard for me not to victim blame in this situation. Still, if you self select into any "high risk" group, you do have to think about that risk, IMHO. No, you should NOT expect it, but you should realize your risk is increased because of factors in your M and work to make sure that factors are "handled" in any way possible.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 7:21 AM, October 13th (Sunday)]

You know what did? My desperation for them to like ME and think I was “good enough”. Usually when asked, but sometimes offered up because I thought it would make ME look hotter to them. To make me feel better about myself and secure their “love” for me.

I actually think a lot of BH's understand this. Implicit within this statement is also the understanding by the WW that doing these things for/to/with the AP will bring him a lot of pleasure, and she is investing this energy and providing this pleasure to him because she wants whatever it is she perceives she is getting from him via the A. At some level, usually instinctive, it is transactional: if I make him feel good, really good, often, then he will continue paying attention to me.

Which begs the question: why didnt she want what her BH was providing, as a husband, to this same degree? Why didn't she want to make her BH fee really good, so that he would be incentivized to keep on doing his husband stuff?

Although it's generally regarded as taboo to discuss this point, I reckon that the answer in some cases is that the A comes out of a genuinely bad marriage where the husband is a bad husband. The reality in some cases is that she truly does not desire what the BH is providing.

But there are plenty of threads where the BH is doing all the things a loyal husband should do. Working hard to advance and preserve a career to provide for his family. Taking care of the "honey do's" at home. Being a present, attentive father. Showing affection for his wife. A husband who does these things is going to feel utterly devalued as a man if his WWs invests energy to provide heightened sexual pleasure to another man, especially if this goes above and beyond any type of energy and imagination she has invested into providing sexual pleasure to her BH prior to the A. What the BH will hear from that is that she placed more value in whatever it was she thought she was getting from the A than she does in the stuff the BH is providing.

If the BH perceived himself as being a good husband, this is the psychological equivalent of spitting in his face and telling him he's worthless. This is why there is a higher divorce rate where the wife cheats. A husband being told he is worthless as a man will solve that by ceasing being a husband.

The injury a man feels is particularly acute if the WW is a SAHM who complains that he is at work too much. The emasculation from this specific dynamic is so strong. We men are doers, providers, fixers. It's a big part of how we show desire. What greater expression of sexual desire can a man give than to devote decades of his life into working hard to advance a career, bringing home 100% of his pay, emptying the grease trap every night for 37 years, getting up on ladders in dangerous places to fix the house, waking up at wee hours to take kids to sports team practices or such, essentially giving every fiber of his being toward advancing the family?

A bored housewife who responds to attention from a scumbag who has leisure time, while the BH is doing his duties, is telling her husband that all of what he does is worthless to her. I've seen a lot of threads here on SI with that fact pattern. It usually occurs around the time the nest gets empty. Men do fail to understand the profound degree to which this can make a SAHM feel tossed away and worthless. I grok this. But if the SAHM does not effectively communicate this to her BH, and instead pursues an A with a malingerer who is around while BH works, that is 100% on her. And if she goes "full porn star" for the POSOM, most BH's would walk from the marriage, I think.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 9:18 AM, October 13th (Sunday)]

she thanks him by using that free time to give sexual pleasure to another man.

Whilst simultaneously claiming, to the BS (this isn't just a BH thing), "too tired", "I'm not into that", "That's just not me" etc, etc, etc.

I actually think a lot of BH's understand this.

Yes, at least I certainly do. And what you said is exactly what I think about it, "OK you were doing these things to impress him, am I not worth impressing? Was whatever he was giving in return really that much better than what I gave in return"? And, if you break it down, what did he "give in return". It wasn't a great lifestyle, it wasn't a future together, it wasn't caring about you. No, it was "words". Words that have immense power, I get that, but there was nothing actually "given" of himself. And this can be flipped around for BW's too, raising the children, having a job, working in the house.. All things she's really giving to the WH, and what did the AP offer? Sex and words/kibbles. OK, so you got blown away by the sex/words/kibbles in the A, you really wanted them and you were willing to do/say whatever it took.. Got it, that makes sense too. But, circling it all back, am I not more valuable than the AP? Why are his empty words (or meaningless sex) worth so much more than my real words and/or sex that actually has feelings behind it?

Which begs the question: why didnt she want what her BH was providing, as a husband, to this same degree? Although it's generally regarded as taboo to discuss this point, some As come out of genuinely bad marriages where the husband is a bad husband. The reality in some cases is that she truly does not desire what the BH is providing.

It is taboo, and it's also probably true. I wouldn't describe our marriage as "bad", but my wife absolutely wanted something I was not providing. I'm not in any way responsible for her crappy choices, but, at the same time, while I wouldn't put myself into "bad husband" category, if you look only at my "emotional intelligence" you'd see pretty quickly I'm a bit of a slow learner. I wasn't providing what she was getting from the A.

feel utterly devalued as a husband, and a man, by a WWs actions investing that energy to provide heightened sexual pleasure to another man. What the BH will hear from that is that she placed more value in whatever it was she thought she was getting from the A than she does in the stuff the BH is providing.

That certainly what I heard. And while it's been explained a million different ways, I'd bet my life that at least some of the time, this is the case. The AP was "worth more" to the WS, whatever that means, and because of that, they were willing to do more for their pleasure. Could be sex, could be gifts, could be mowing their lawn while complaining that your W doesn't mow your own. But it is very hard to not see it as "he/she was providing something so much more valuable than me that you were willing to do more to get it" because, in fact, I think that's at least some of the time the case.

Yes he is focused on the sex because it is what HE is dealing with.

I understand this. If the discussion stuck to this, there wouldn't be an issue. Open up about what is going on with you, how you are feeling, what your CW is doing to fix things, what you are struggling with. Stop talking about what other people are doing.

RIO, your explanation of what you were told and understood about sex doesn't jive with you lying to get it. If you truly thought all things were equal, why would you feel the need to lie? People lie to trick others. If you thought you had to trick these women to get them to have sex with you, you must've known on some level that things weren't equal.

I know your explanation for this. You thought it was part of the game the women were playing. They had to pretend they didn't want what they really wanted. Again, that doesn't jive. If all women wanted sex just like men do, there would be no need for anyone to pretend.

The problem is that you think (thought?) that enjoying sex the same meant wanting sex the same. I enjoy sex just as much as my fch does. However, I do not want random, emotionless ONSes. That doesn't mean I need to have a deep, emotional connection every time. What I need is respect and safety. Lying to get what you want and then ghosting afterward is not safe or respectful.

As has been said ad nauseam, women put a lot more investment into every sexual exchange they have then men do. We put ourselves in a very vulnerable situation. We risk our bodies and our lives every time. Unless the parts are gone or have gone through menopause, there is always a chance of pregnancy. Life-threatening risks come with pregnancy that men will never experience. Not to mention being left to possibly raise a child by ourselves because we don't even know the father's name. We have to be more cautious.

Having a distorted view of things when you are young and inexperienced is one thing. Continuing those distortions into mature adulthood after evidence to the contrary shows a lack of something.

I know your explanation for this. You thought it was part of the game the women were playing. They had to pretend they didn't want what they really wanted. Again, that doesn't jive. If all women wanted sex just like men do, there would be no need for anyone to pretend.

Well, if nothing else, you know my script. Yes, I felt it was part of the "dance". But, let me flip it around. If you know that a lot of men are "hot to trot" and most single guys don't need much/any encouragement beyond "yes" to jump in bed with you, why wear 3" heels? Paint your bedroom eyes on? A tight and short skirt? None of this is the least bit necessary (speaking for myself), I'm just as happy with the "authentic you", no makeup, in everyday clothes. There's no need to "lie" about how you look to me. I can't answer this question, but, to me, this was just another part of the "dance". You put on clothes that make you look different and make me want to sleep with you, I say words that do the same thing for you. Neither is "authentic", this isn't how you look and this isn't what I'm really thinking, but we both "know it" and dance happily towards the bedroom because, you put on that mini-skirt and I "kicked game" to you, but we both went out tonight with the intention of finding someone for a sweaty evening between the sheets. We were both less than authentic, but that's OK because both got what we wanted. Yes, you're right, that's exactly what I was going to say; just with a bit more elaboration (if I could get paid by the word for my posts, oh man, watch out Bill Gates!).

Having a distorted view of things when you are young and inexperienced is one thing. Continuing those distortions into mature adulthood after evidence to the contrary shows a lack of something.

If we're talking about the view of the "dance" and both of us know we're "dancing" but both actually want to have sex, trust me, that viewpoint is GONE. Gone, gone gone.. Yes, I did think that up until the A (not about my W, it was obviously different then, but about other women). I've come to learn that I was dead wrong there, mostly from reading here and affair recovery books, it became abundantly clear that while perhaps both sexes are dancing, they aren't the same band that's playing for both people. That distortion is gone, never to return, I can promise you that. I also have no idea how I'd ever date again without that distortion, I think about that occasionally and just have no idea how I'd come to some logically consistent viewpoint on how to operate in a dating situation again. Topic for a different time (hopefully never, because I really don't want to dig for this answer).

The problem is that you think (thought?) that enjoying sex the same meant wanting sex the same.

Thought. Past tense. Although, I often wish I didn't know, I do, and there's no going back. But you're entirely correct, that's exactly what I thought. "I wouldn't care if someone lied to me to have sex" so.. Why would she care? We enjoy sex the same (which, to your point, really was "want sex the same"). Basically, I looked at it as "would this bother me" and, if the answer was "no" then I figured it was acceptable.