SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

CantBeMe123, in response to your above Madhatter post. People like balance. They like to sound wise and say both sides were wrong or could have done better. In order to achieve this they raise the standard to whatever they need to criticize both sides.

If one side did nothing that bad they bring out a microscope. They say things like “in hindsight you could have handled that better”. Suddenly you have no right to be upset or criticize unless you have lead the perfect life.

You handled it better than 99% of the population.

[This message edited by Michigan at 1:15 PM, February 1st (Friday)]

She (MC) thinks the issue is that rather than confront the truth that I was not satisfied with my sexual experiences before commitment, I instead basically rug-swept the issue and pushed it down whenever thoughts about it came up.

CantBeMe123

You didn’t rug-sweep it. You made a deal and it turned out great. You were happy until you found out that is wasn’t as great as you thought.

I like analogies. Let’s say that you always wanted a certain sports car. In 2001 you had enough cash to buy one but decided to buy Apple stock instead. Over the years you would randomly regret your decision. But then Apple stock went through the roof and buying the stock became the best decision you ever made. NO REGRETS.

The following was your Apple stock’s value.

I thought our love, our marriage, our sex, everything, was special. I wanted to be the guy in the bar bragging to his buddy about how good our sex is, how great our marriage is, how much we get each other, how I feel like I married my best friend even all these years later.

CantBeMe123

Now the stock crashed and you regret not having all the fun you could have had in your sports car.

The madhatter umbrella covers a really broad spectrum of situations, which arguably creates a "one size fits all" interpretation of false equivalency. My BH and I are both madhatters (and yes, I hate the word too, and don't even understand its origin -- did I miss the part in Alice in Wonderland where the Mad Hatter screws around?). We've earned that scarlet M because both of us committed betrayals in our relationship. Some might say that because my BH was with two women and I was with one man, he's "more" of an MH than me. Others would say that I'm more of an MH because I had a months-long A that included sex and he had two ONS of groping. One of the things I'm processing is that I never got my 18 months of safe space as a BW because BH didn't tell me about his infidelity until I told him about mine. I became an MH before I even knew I was a BW. What am I "most" -- a BW, a WW, or an MH? What's the point of the label, anyway?

The point is that BSes need to be protected from posters who exhibit the same behaviors and triggers that they are receiving from their WSes. None of them are expected to be perfect, but they are expected to have not committed any of the offenses that the other BS's are grieving. The answer to your question, therefore, is yes, you are that much of a trigger. What you did qualifies as an A on SI, even if you don't accept that, and therefore keeping you in JFO would invalidate the suffering of people who are struggling to cope with similar infidelities. The Wayward Side, with a stop sign, is the place for WS to bring up topics in safety, where they might get constant 2x4s in any other circumstances. Madhatters are in the unenviable position of not having a completely safe space to talk about being victims of betrayal. There's one MH Only thread in I Can Relate, but obviously, it doesn't get the kind of traffic that JFO does, and no one who is solely a BS can post there. You're out of the club of people who most understand what you're going through.

I can only imagine how frightening it must be to be kicked out of the safe bubble of JFO, like a bewildered Adam who says, "Wait, WTF? Are you serious? It was just one bite of an apple!" And then, when forced to face how costly that one bite of the apple really was, to suddenly need support from WSes, the very people whom BSes justifiably see as the enemy. But again, gently, you are still saying things that are textbook wayward. You don't see your behavior as an A, and you think it's less important because you were only attracted to feeling attractive. That is a CLASSIC wayward explanation for an A. I think you would see that instantly if you heard it coming from anyone other than yourself.

I do sympathize with your pain, though. Honestly, it kills me that my BH can't post in JFO. He is so deeply hurt by what I did, far more deeply than I am by what he did. Part of this discrepancy is because he came clean to me at my first DDay, so I've had 30 years to come to terms with it, years that he didn't have because of my trickle truth. Part of it is that I really do think what I did was much worse than what he did, both physically and emotionally. When I say we're both madhatters, I think I'm significantly higher octane than he is -- 90% WW/10% BW, while he's 90% BH/10% WH. That opinion doesn't matter where JFO is concerned, though. That needs to be a clear, hard line. I'm still so sad for my BH, who has been so devastated, so compassionate, working so hard to own the every things he did that got him labeled a madhatter. I wish he could have that safe space, but he can't, and he and I both accept why.

Believe me, a madhatter's BS side gets the sympathy any other BS gets. We know how we responded to being betrayed, and we can understand a lot about how you respond. You just can't post in JFO (because you can easily trigger a new BS). OTOH, you can post in WS STOP sign thread as a WS, something BSes can't do. I'm sure the mods wrote something like that (and I strongly advise going with what the mods say, if I've said something different from their message to you).

I want to reiterate, what I have been sharing is a private thought, an invasive thought, one that I can't control having.

I get it. Let me suggest a couple of things:

1) Read about the Drama Triangle - karpmandramatriangle.com (citation OKed by mod) is a good place to start. IMO, you have made yourself a Victim by obsessing about your pre-M sex life. You want to switch to Persecutor by cheating on your W with her 'permission.' (Gently, I think you're doing something similar over being labeled a madhatter.)

2) Go to the feelings underneath the thought. Are you mad, sad, glad, scared, or ashamed about being relatively inexperienced sexually? Go with the feeling and see what comes up.

3) If you want to stop the intrusive thoughts about something you cannot change, I urge you to make that a goal for your IC process. If your current IC can't or won't help, find an IC who will (and can).

*****

The thing is, it's common for WSes to minimize what they've done. That's what you're doing.

Wanting to be classed as an madhatter is not necessary. Describing yourself as one is all it takes.

You may think you own your shit, but you describe a madhatter, and you reject the conclusion. That isn't owning your shit.

Bro,

What do you want to change that you can change? You can't change being a madhatter.

You can't change entering your M while wanting to have wider sexual experiences. (Me, too, BTW. It's just that I realized I had a choice: on one hand, M with W2b and monogamy, and OTOH, wider sexual experience without W2b. I freely chose depth over breadth. No regrets.)

You can't go back to being a teenager, for whom wide experience without thought or consideration for others is the norm.

Read Karpman or his disciples. You'll see your fantasies are lies you tell yourself.

Healing requires honesty, and that starts with yourself.

I'm really sorry you're experiencing being a BS and a WS-without-benefit-of-intercourse. You can heal, though, and choose most of what your life will be. D, R, life in an armed camp, a life of fantasy, a life of being your own biggest obstacle - you can choose any one of those and more.

Keep reading. Get to know your feelings. Heal yourself. You really can make a good life if you get out of Drama Triangles and stay out.

[This message edited by sisoon at 3:20 PM, February 1st (Friday)]

CBM,

I posted this, on your thread, last Saturday...

Nothing, and I mean nothing, will shift the animosity off of a WS and onto a BS, faster than a revenge affair. Or even a revenge flirt.

......you are experiencing this dynamic now. Technically what you did was not “revenge” flirting, since it happened before Flawed confessed. But you did flirt. And it appears that is the threshold for MH status.

Which is fine. This board is a private entity and can make whatever rules they want. And enforce them how ever they see fit. Across the board. Or on a case by case basis. As they say it’s a free country.

I do wonder how many BS on this site would also qualify for MH status if they voiced their shortcomings. Even if they are only thoughts.

I simply don't understand why they did this to me, without any warning, still deep in my time of need. This site is supposedly a non-profit that exists to help people heal, I have donated to it myself, yet I am being treated like something that must be placed in a separate box and shamed and judged. That's how it feels to me.

Furthermore, I have described my co-worker "thing" for almost two months. Why do this now?

Why now? My guess would be, once you admitted to thinking about having sex with another woman, it brought you greater attention/scrutiny from the MODS.

But here is the silver lining. The BS who you interacted with on JFO will still be here. Keep posting and getting input. We are still here to help. I doubt any of the BS commenting on your thread are going to take their ball and go home over this. And if you never mention the sex with other women stuff again, the debate will die off. People have short attention spans and will find something else to get fired up about.

But just so I can categorize you....Rams or Patriots?

/threadjack/

Let me see if i have this right...

If you're currently a BS but also an MH, you post in General.

But if you're currently a WS but also an MH, you post in Wayward.

That way, SOs are never posting in the same forum.

Is that right?

[This message edited by GoldenR at 8:41 PM, February 1st (Friday)]

It’s entirely possible if not probable that because it was in the JFO forum, you did upset several newly betrayed members who are reeling and in pain.

A sizable chunk of your thread was you contemplating and people responding to your desire to have sex with a prostitute while still married. A piece of that was your stated prior emotional attachment to someone other than your wife.

.

Regardless of your personal circumstances, that forum exists for every newly betrayed person. They are confused, hurt, fragile, trying to make sense of cruel actions by their spouses, and although it isn’t how your thread began, it morphed into something that no longer met the guidelines of that forum, which is supposed to be a safe place to share for everyone. Even though it wasn’t your intention, I think that is what happened.

The mods don’t scrutinize every thread constantly (that would be a full time job!) and perhaps they didn’t catch it right away. It’s also possible that someone vulnerable and hurtalerted the mods and they discussed it and decided a course of action, i.e., that your thread became more suitable for General based on the content and your previous emotional attachment to whomever.

It doesn’t mean they’ve left you without a home though. If anything they’ve widened your circle of support because some people don’t read JFO (they find it too raw and painful). Keep posting. I think you’re exceptionally honest and although I don’t agree with some of your positions and rationales, I’m finding value in reading and considering. I also think you’ll be able to help others.

Peace.

Edited to add: Can anyone explain the origin of the term “Mad Hatter”?

[This message edited by Lieswearmedown at 8:44 PM, February 1st (Friday)]

Can anyone explain the origin of the term “Mad Hatter”?

I have wondered about this also.

The historical origin is something like this....

“The expression is linked to the hat-making industry and mercury poisoning. In the 18th and 19th centuries, industrial workers used a toxic substance, mercury nitrate, as part of the process of turning the fur of small animals, such as rabbits, into felt for hats. Workplace safety standards often were lax and prolonged exposure to mercury caused employees to develop a variety of physical and mental ailments, including tremors (dubbed “hatter’s shakes”), speech problems, emotional instability and hallucinations.”

Not sure how the term got applied to affairs. Looking forward to an explanation.

Ramius - just googled it and aside from a few odd social events and links to SI, I found a write up in some society page of a newspaper about a “Madhatter themed wedding!”

That sounds like hell.... hell with cake and a DJ....

[This message edited by Lieswearmedown at 10:15 PM, February 1st (Friday)]

CBM, I found your posts exceptionally honest, and for that you get two thumbs up.

My question for you, though...why does it bother you to be labeled a mad hatter?

I'm not asking that as a implicit statement, suggesting you shouldn't be bothered, because the fact is it bothers you, and would bother pretty much anyone else...but why?

I mean, we're just a bunch of anonymous people on the internet, right. Further, you are the exact same person today, posting in the General forum and labeled a mad hatter by a bunch of anonymous people, as you were when you were posting in the JFO. Nothing has changed about you. You are the same person.

One would think that how you feel about you ought to depend 100% on who you are and how you see yourself. It ought to be common sense. Yet you feel different. Gut-punched.

Opinions matter, and there is a social pressure that is about inescapable. It is an incredibly powerful force in our lives, barely noticed. Probably like a fish notices water.

Unless you become aware of it, and actually see it. Then you can put it in its place. You are who you are, whether people call you an MH or not. Whether your wife cheated before you were married or not. No matter what people might think about you staying married or getting a divorce, thinking you weak or strong. Ignore them and be yourself, centered by your own moral compass.

The affirmation you get socially is equally powerful. Once you are aware of it, you can see yourself responding to it. The support from a crowd. Being flirted with by someone. you can take a step back and just watch it work its magic on you, or on others. Maybe your wife sought it out too.

Keep being truthful and honest and just let the chips fall where they may as far as where you can or can't post. You're a valuable member with an important voice.

Sending strength!

I believe “madhatter” (which is a term I’ve come across in multiple infidelity sites and articles) is used because the person wears two hats - the betrayed and wayward - which makes healing exponentially more difficult. Trying to cope with the trauma of being betrayed AND trying to soothe a betrayed spouse who’s devastated by betrayal? It’s so hard and confusing - each spouse having to put aside their own pain to fix the errant wayward thinking and behaviours? Resisting the urge to compare pain - I couldn’t imagine enduring the pain of my husband’s EA but not being able to express it while dealing with his pain?

Maddening - which is where the insanity portion of the madhatter definition comes from. Descriptions from past valued madhatter members show this to be true. Being a MH doesn’t make healing and reconciliation twice as hard - it quadruples the challenge.

The term itself is shorthand. It’s a quick easy way to identify members for the purpose of applying the guidelines and keeping SI safe. Some members here refer to WS as wandering spouse which I just can’t stand - it drives me batty, so I don’t use it. I hate the term mistress, so I use OW or AP. And you never again need to use the term MH.

You can post as a BS for the rest of your time here at SI if that’s all you need or want. And if you read the General forum, you will see many BS’s seeking and receiving support daily. The only difference between JFO and General is that WS’s are permitted to respond to threads in General. And it’s been my experience that if you state you only want support from BS’s in the thread title, most WS’s respect that.

The question I have is will this action help my healing and make our marriage stronger in the future and make me less likely to have an RA later on.

If you think you'll get the same enjoyment from NSA sex with an escort that your wife got from her PA, forget it. NSA sex with an escort is just transactional sex. You pay, you have sex, you leave.

Affair sex (excluding ONS), with the illicit nature/taboo factor, the gradual lead up and unleashing of pent up passions, the ebb and flow of the affair between physical encounters, etc. is on a different plane, it's like a drug, compared to which a one-time transaction with an escort is lame.

Consider your wife's AP: Suppose he paid a hooker and had sex with her. Compare that experience with the experience he had with your wife (then GF) - flirting at work, grinding at the bar, taking her home and fucking her, then repeating it a couple more times in a couple more locations. Which one do you think he cherishes or remembers more? Which woman did he feel more intimate with? Your GF of course!

So unless your escort really rocks your world in some weird way, it will be a one-off encounter you will soon forget. Will that prevent you from an RA? Maybe, but maybe not - let's say a decade or two down the line, a pretty young thing catches your fancy and somehow you two just click - it could start by meeting at work, through friends, a chance encounter, whatever. You start corresponding, either you or her start flirting, you're still married and maybe she is too, or has a BF, but you have crazy chemistry, just like your GF did with her AP. Will you remember that you're even because you had your hall pass already? Maybe, but maybe not. You could get carried away by those emotions, the "fog" that cheaters so often quote.

You're absolutely justified in feeling deprived of sexual freedom, while your GF was happily rolling in the hay with her AP, and want to get even. But I struggle to understand how an escort session will help in any way. There is no passion, no pursuing and seduction, no crazy longings, etc. etc. That can happen only if you actively pursue a woman and seduce her, not just pay her for sex.

CBM

I really recommend you read Shirley Glass’s Not Just Friends, a non-judgemental and insightful book summarising her infidelity research and findings.

Best wishes

ED

T/J

I hate the term mistress, so I use OW or AP. And you never again need to use the term MH.

I dislike (not 'hate') honoring aps, oms, ows, etc. with upper-case letters., so it's almost always lower-case for me. I even spend some time making sure my sentences don't start with one of those terms, so I can avoid capitalizing even just the first letter of those terms.

I don't capitalize 'd-day', either. I reserve 'D-Day' for 6/6/44. As awful as a BS's d-day is, I don't think it comes close to the trauma of landing on a beach while being shot at, and there were far worse traumas than that on offer.

End T/J

[This message edited by sisoon at 10:46 AM, February 2nd (Saturday)]

To stand with honor does not require perfection. I completely understand why you are offended. When temptation crossed your path, you held the line. Perfection, to some, requires never even thinking about another. That's a nearly impossible task at 10 years out. If you can look at yourself in the mirror and know you have maintained your honor, then that is enough.

Comparing one of these replies and your wife's actions to a flirtation, is like comparing a match to the sun.

IMO, you are not a mad hatter, however you are more than likely to become one. Not with a prostitute or the temporary insanity of a threesome, but years down the line when one day, the right (wrong) beautiful flower will say the magic words. That is what your wife should be worried about. And th elephant in the room which is her loss of value.

The loss of value.

Your wife cheated because she did not value you at that time. This includes the 2 other instances of infidelty. She weighed the risk and assigned value to you and her fidelity. There is no question as to what she valued the most.

Value is also the reason she lied to you repeatedly. As time went by, your value and the marriage increased and she did not waiver again (poly). She made the decision to lie to keep what was important to her (at your expense). This is the imbalance you feel that is manifesting itself in the desire for another.

Unfortunately, she miscalculated who you are as a man. She miscalclauted the importance of honor. She thought that because you/the marriage had become valuable to HER, that you should also hold the same value, even if she cheated and lied for 10 years.

The pedestal is now gone. She has lost the "special" She has lost her value and now you are considering crossing your lines. The irony is that YOU are in the exact place she was 10 years ago. Weighing value. Yes you love her and want to R, however the affair has changed you. Your words are outrage and theb unthinkable is now a reality.

When my wife and I read you and your wife's threads, it seems like you are both talking about someone else. While you are sinking in outrage, doubt and offense, she is playing music on the Titanic. Her words are those of a studied academic. Confident in her value and with very little real emotion. This delusion is a huge miscalculation. There is a real danger down the line. She needs to open her eyes and understand the loss of value to a man of honor. You now have an out.

We kindly suggest you give yourself/the marriage some time to see if you/she can bring back the value that gives you the strength to hold the line once again. If you can not, take the next step, but maintain your self respect as you have done in the past.

Strength and Honor.

When I say we're both madhatters, I think I'm significantly higher octane than he is -- 90% WW/10% BW, while he's 90% BH/10% WH. That opinion doesn't matter where JFO is concerned, though. That needs to be a clear, hard line.

Why does it need to be? I don’t understand this. I look at JFO and see a bunch of separate threads, each existing in their own space, where members are seeking and receiving help tailored to their individual needs. Why should my thread need to conform to someone else’s idea of what a BS “needs”, when the whole reason my thread exists is because of my need for help to begin with.

I also fail to see how anything of what I posted could “trigger” a new BS. Why? What does my circumstance have to do with theirs? Why can’t another adult simply skip my thread if they don’t like my POV on things? Why does my healing have to come second to someone else’s, when they can so easily just ignore me altogether? It makes no sense to me.

You don't see your behavior as an A, and you think it's less important because you were only attracted to feeling attractive. That is a CLASSIC wayward explanation for an A. I think you would see that instantly if you heard it coming from anyone other than yourself.

I know I betrayed my wife’s trust, that’s why I disclosed this damn thing to begin with, to show that I don’t think of myself as a perfect angel or morally superior to anybody, but that I do have values and I did not betray my values. I admitted my own faults and shortcomings. The difference between what I did and a real affair (and the difference between you and me) is that when the rubber hit the road I didn’t lose myself and throw away my values. I went the other way.

Maybe we are disagreeing on semantics and your stance is that any betrayal is an "affair", but I don't feel that way at all. I think an affair requires emotional connection and at least an intention to do something physical, if not actually do it. In fact, I would bet my bank account your husband would look at your affair a lot differently if you turned down your AP for sex and then never spoke to him again. He would probably say that you did the right thing and that you did not have an affair.

You handled it better than 99% of the population.

Thank you. Maybe more like 92%, hah.

But just so I can categorize you....Rams or Patriots?

Anyone but Patriots, of course.

My question for you, though...why does it bother you to be labeled a mad hatter?

I'm not asking that as a implicit statement, suggesting you shouldn't be bothered, because the fact is it bothers you, and would bother pretty much anyone else...but why?

Because it feels like being judged and told I fail someone else's test for purity, even though I was true to my values. It feels like a betrayal by the same people who should understand me more than anybody. For a group I thought I was a part of to say, “you are hurting, we understand your hurt, but you don’t belong here anymore with us” is emotionally panful, even for internet strangers. The fact that it happened suddenly and without warning made me feel powerless and betrayed. It felt like said internet strangers have decided they know me enough to consider me a danger to other BS, whereas I look at them as my brethren and people I need support from and want to support.

It also draws an equivalency between me and what is hurting me the most. I came here in incredible pain, and now I am told, “you are on that same level”. It makes me feel the same way my wife’s affair made me feel - like I have played by the rules, lived honestly and been a good man, and I end up punished for it yet again.

The pedestal is now gone. She has lost the "special" She has lost her value and now you are considering crossing your lines. The irony is that YOU are in the exact place she was 10 years ago. Weighing value. Yes you love her and want to R, however the affair has changed you. Your words are outrage and theb unthinkable is now a reality.

When my wife and I read you and your wife's threads, it seems like you are both talking about someone else. While you are sinking in outrage, doubt and offense, she is playing music on the Titanic. Her words are those of a studied academic. Confident in her value and with very little real emotion. This delusion is a huge miscalculation. There is a real danger down the line. She needs to open her eyes and understand the loss of value to a man of honor. You now have an out.

We kindly suggest you give yourself/the marriage some time to see if you/she can bring back the value that gives you the strength to hold the line once again. If you can not, take the next step, but maintain your self respect as you have done in the past.

Thank you for this insight. Very thought provoking. A couple things:

I felt myself ‘weigh the value’ when I got propositioned by my “AP” (insert sarcastic snort noise). I thought of my wife and everything I had to lose, and I said no. It hurts me all the more to think my wife either didn’t think of me at all (as she says) or thought of me and did it anyway. Extremely painful. I can only remind myself that what matters is how she feels now, not then, and that even if she didn’t love me as much as I thought back then, it really doesn’t matter now. But it still hurts a lot.

Her words are those of a studied academic, aren’t they? In my opinion, she really struggles with authenticity. She cannot post on this board without spending hours or days crafting a response. Many times at home, I feel like we can’t even hold a serious conversation because she struggles to respond in real time. When she posts or talks to other people, I often feel that she is more concerned with how they perceive her than being her honest self.

It’s like she has no idea how to process her own thoughts and emotions and needs copious amounts of time to figure it out, which then strains how genuine she comes across. Or that she makes herself process because she's afraid of sharing unfiltered thoughts, like she doesn't trust them or she's programmed herself to fit them to whoever she's speaking to at the moment.

It often becomes a negative feedback loop – I get frustrated with her slow response, she gets more anxious, she takes even longer to come up with responses, I get more frustrated, and on and on.

She cannot post on this board without spending hours or days crafting a response. Many times at home, I feel like we can’t even hold a serious conversation because she struggles to respond in real time. When she posts or talks to other people, I often feel that she is more concerned with how they perceive her than being her honest self.

Has she always been this way?

Her words are those of a studied academic, aren’t they? In my opinion, she really struggles with authenticity. She cannot post on this board without spending hours or days crafting a response. Many times at home, I feel like we can’t even hold a serious conversation because she struggles to respond in real time. When she posts or talks to other people, I often feel that she is more concerned with how they perceive her than being her honest self.

While I think that carefully considered words can be just as authentic as any others, I think I get what you're saying. The time lag between question and answer or prompt and response leaves you with the feeling that you're getting something calculated rather than candid. It's a manifestation of her longstanding problem with hiding/minimizing the less savory parts of herself (real or imagined) so as to be able to gain the approval of others. It's something you should definitely be keeping an eye on and expecting to see steadily improve over time. It won't be a quick or easy thing to undo considering how long it's been her default behavior, but it's necessary for her personal growth and making herself a safe partner for you.

How does she handle being directly challenged on it? If the next time you wanted to have a difficult conversation you set a rule that she wasn't allowed to walk away and take hours to formulate a response, or even take more than a moment or two to consider it before speaking, how would that go? It might help her get into the habit of being able to speak off the cuff.

CBM:

I am new to this website, so I confess that the various categories--madhatter, BS, WS, sometimes seem a little artificial to me when talking about situations that are no Physical Affairs. I actually agree with you; it seems like you came close to the precipice, but didn't jump into an affair. But this website has its own criteria for grouping people, and I am new, so I will defer.

Nevertheless, believe that you do have support, at least from me.

Regarding your wife's measured responses---has she always been this way, or is this a new trait? Is she only being more careful about what she says since the exposure of the affair?