SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Glad if I could help. It's an up and down kind of battle to remember that the cheating isn't about you. Believe me, I know. The weird thing about infidelity and healing is the duality of it all. Your perspective wants to shift between anger/empathy for your WS and anger/empathy for yourself. Finding balance is so hard because it's not like we can crack their heads open to peer inside, and even if we could, chances are they'd be just as hard to read as what's inside our own. I've had a very difficult time being compassionate without engaging more extremely in pity, both for him and for me. Pity, and worse, self-pity are traps though.

Pity for the WS can cause us to forgive too soon or to abandon our boundaries. Self-pity can drag us down into despair and depression. Post-trauma compassion is a whole different animal than the compassion we've experienced previously. It needs to be tempered with the new boundaries we design and then maintain.

Anger is likewise difficult to manage. There just doesn't seem to be any good place to put it. Often, we end up turning it inward. Our internal dialogue suffers and we become our own worst critic. This leads to MORE despair and depression. And turning it toward the WS doesn't assuage it. Even the most remorseful of WS can never feel what we felt.

For right now, your best bet is to keep trying to convert all that energy into self-care and getting strong. Time does its thing. WS's reveal themselves to either be open to the hard work of repair or they show their true stripes. And for the BS, we absorb the initial blow, start working our boundaries, and our preferred path begins to reveal itself. I remember when I was just a few weeks in, much as you are now, that I couldn't see a future at all. It was terrifying. The path before me seemed to have fallen away and there was just all this empty space ahead of me, unformed with no footholds. But trust me when I tell you that your view will start firming up, that there IS still a path before you and that in time, you'll be able to see your way.

((big hugs))

Speedbump, in reading your story I like you find the "hardest thing to reconcile is the cruelty".

I simply cannot reconcile it. There is no explanation that can make what they did o.k. Her doing it, as a stranger who didn't have any reason to care is one thing. But him doing it as someone who asked you to marry him and be your 'person' and you do the same for him is mind boggling.

It makes me wonder if the next step was to take out a giant insurance policy and have you have a boating 'accident'. Not for the money, but for the thrill. Something is very wrong with both of them.

How he responded when discovered chills me to the bones. He says he hates her, but he seemingly blames her for his troubles because she 'blabbed' to you. If he took responsibility for his actions he wouldn't of asked her 'What did YOU do!!!??", but instead of asked himself "What have I done!!!???. He wouldn't be mad at her as he would brush aside what evils anyone else did and focus on what he has done. He should feel sorry for her because it takes two to tango and because he should feel that he played a role in her adopting such a wicked interaction with you. I feel his only regret is that he was caught for doing it and blames not only being caught on her, but the very fact he participated on her. He has not accepted his role in this.

I'm so very happy you took the time to build your strength up and visit the states. I am proud of your daughter and respect that you get to decide how much you tell her if ever about how cruel they were to you.

My main question for your husband is not 'why her', but instead I want to ask why involve you in his affair? What sick person needs to not only cheat but also needs the added thrill of doing so while playing mind games with the betrayed. It wasn't just he was unsatisfied, its that he felt the need to and was physically exited by demeaning and ridiculing you with his affair partner.

I usually feel most everyone is redeemable and should be given a chance, but in your husbands case his behavior was so psychotic I fear for your safety. If he is truly evil what he says and does doesn't matter. If he isn't, what he has already said and done has destroyed any semblance of respect he has for himself and what he feels you have for him. I fear he will shortly resent you for how you make him feel about himself (like a giant turd which is how every should view him because of his abhorrent behavior).

I am so very sorry. You did nothing wrong. You didn't deserve this. God bless the powers that be that let you become aware of it and not allow you to let them make you a caricature of a female cuckold existing to serve escalating their sexual play.

I am very happy for you having family and a healthy circle of friends outside of your marriage. You are a good person. This should not, and does not define who you are! You can and will be o.k. Stay healthy and strong for yourself, your daughter, and the rest of the people in your life who have earned your love and support.

“Why her”

I’ve read you’re whole thread speed bump and there is little to no advice that I could offer that hasn’t already been put forth. I just wanted to share, I too am familiar with the crueltt of games played at my expense. There’s an extra layer of insult to the soul you’ll have to deal with. I’m sorry for that.

You’re question to him, “Why her” it’s an opening. I just wanted to mention that. If you are done. If you have not even a whisper of hope in your heart, then the answer doesn’t matter. What matters is the dynamic he chose to share with you. Not her. If you do have some hope, then it’s an answer you will probably need. That and so much more.

Opening that door and hearing those truths is really, really, really hard. Crushing. I’m two years out almost and still haven’t really recovered. I just wanted to share that. Likely, you’ll hear she meant nothing, was easy and convenient, and believe it or not, that will make it hurt so much more because your pain was all for nothing. . Or you’ll hear he loved her, and be devestated all over again. There’s no winning. There’s really no winning.

I think the cruelty is common in affairs that are emotional and physical. It’s uncommon that you know the details of the cruelty. I believe it’s because the woman especially in these affairs ultimately are wanting an exit affair and it’s how they believe they can achieve it. I found a message from my husbands AP talking about how he should vent on me because I deserve it and he did it because if he didn’t want to be the horrible person then it had to be me. I didn’t know her but my WH knew her husband and they would all hang out. Her parents would dare him to do shit in front of her BH because they knew about the affair. Talk about sick.

Speed Bump,

You are doing marvelously well navigating this shit storm. I wish I had half of your levelheadedness back at my DDay. I'm a little pressed for time, but I wanted to share 2 stray thoughts of mine on your situation-

1. Harbored resentment, not the love of his life, and so-called reason we seek, is almost always going to be an after-the-fact rationalizing of behavior, not a real explanation. These also usually involve a fair amount of re-writing of marital history to fit the story. Your WS had self-pleasing motive and opportunity, and was a pig who didn't stop himself. Mine, too, by the way. The re-writing and pretzel logic that follows the base real reason is a sanitization effort that, in my opinion, covers up the real problem, and therefore makes the real problem much harder to address. In the event you choose to try to R with your WS, do you want him to work on his real issues or his rationalization? Also, in my experience - rationalizations almost always involve shifting the blame to the BS. So the logical remedy to these types of issues mean that it is up to the BS to rectify them so the WS doesn't cheat again, poor little muffins that they are. People in arranged marriages manage to be faithful. The M or your behavior or even his newly found harbored resentments didn't cause him to cheat. Even monstrous resentments couldn't begin to cause an ethical person with integrity to cheat. He did it because he wanted to. Because he could. And because he allowed himself to. Everything else is smoke and mirrors.

2. google the 5 stages of grief. You are grieving. You have lost the marriage you thought you had. Know that you will cycle through these stages and give yourself permission and room to do it. I think another thing we tend to do is try to understand the why. If we could just understand what we could do to not have suffered this in the first place and certainly not suffer it again, we would feel much safer. If there was a good reason for this, it would not be as abominable. In the years since I was in your shoes, I think the only thing that has really stuck in that area is - I could have trusted my H less, and paid more attention to warning signs of his lack of integrity sooner. I never could, nor will I ever manage to control his behavior. I was naive, and gave the benefit of the doubt too freely.

That is not to say I am a bitter woman who doesn't trust anyone, because I do. I just don't trust anyone completely. Look, if I am capable of betraying myself at times, why in the world would others not do that at times as well? I think I might be wiser now, more forgiving too, I guess.

Hang in there, you are doing well. We all can tend to be in a hurry to get the poop-storm behind us, but it sadly does take time. Give yourself what you need. I wish you all the best.

I think what happened with him is that I had become the target of everything he felt was wrong in his life, like I had some big, fat bullseye on my forehead where all his angst and disappointment was directed. There had been this passive-aggressive energy emanating from him like a cloying stench for YEARS. And don't get me wrong, I don't think it was all about menacing me, not by a long shot. The larger part is about wanting some strange and all the excitement that goes with it. Not only was I at fault for everything bad in his life, my very existence was keeping him from getting porn star sex with multiple partners.

Oh boy did this part stand out to me ^^^^^^. I felt it at the time, silently in the background, and I even remember asking my WS at the time was he OK or if a certain comment or off hand joke was made by him I do remember saying to him "what do you mean?" or "what was that about?" and he would just shrug or say to me "jeez it was just a joke" and I would very much know at the time that these little things popping out here and there just were not right, but he held in all his thoughts and resentments and would not talk to me.

And just like the above and in hindsight, I now see how he directed all of his anger at my success and his own unhappiness in his own life or just boredom or whatever it was, I was the target and I was to blame, so therefore I deserved it if he cheated. Cuz he needed and wanted whatever it was and he had to look at me and blame me. But I could not see it at the time, I just knew though it felt "off".

But how can you know if someone does not talk to you, or be honest? You can't. It will implode.

Just wanted to say this part stuck out for me anyway. But I just could not put my finger on it and/or just did not understand it back then and at first because I was dealing with the trauma of finding out about the A.

[This message edited by realitybites at 7:29 AM, February 4th (Monday)]

“Why her”

This will drill down to a simple, but maddening:

Why??

And that's the hardest part in all of this as BS's... we literally spend hundreds if not thousands of hours in our heads and outloud wondering why they would do this.

Eventually you will settle on a narrative that gives you some peace either from your WS or just analyzing all variables. If I asked my Ex now the quesiton, 'Why?"--he would give a different answer to what he would have given me a year ago, or two years ago or whenever.

The "her" seems so important at first, like they had something that we didn't. But the truth is it's really about your WS's coping skill and family of origin and the OW was just low hanging fruit. She was available, she was an enabler, he felt something reflected back at himself that he liked from her eyes, in short it was opportunity meets motive. It's not about her. It never was. And that's a bitter pill in a way to swallow but it will help you get some clarity on your WS.

Your WS clearly doesn't love her but he should be working on what the whole thing gave to him in his life. Some WS's get insight into that, many don't.

((((((SpeedBump)))))))

Hope you are doing well and are taking care of yourself.

F1

Hey F1 and everyone - thank you for the much needed hugs. I'm here and letting work thankfully keep me busy and from focusing only on the mess that is my personal life. I'm also trying to look after myself but struggling there. I'm trying though and while staying hydrated, I still need work on the nourishment side. It's a struggle.

While not in a complete panic like what happened before my flight a couple of weeks ago, I am anxious about my impending return home. I have very conflicting thoughts and emotions - I don't want to see WH / I do want to see him. I want to confront AP so badly / I panic at thought of seeing her and never want to see her smug face again - that b!@&h! I love my little house / I never want to step foot in it again. I'm just trying to get thru days without having these constant internal debates going on in my head so peace is hard to find. I'm certain I'm not at all unusual in this regard. So basically, I'm a total mess. Funny not funny!

I received a reply to my 2 -word email to WH - "Why her?". I gotta give him credit. He put thought into it and sent a very adult reply. He said it was the hardest question ever. When he got the email, he ran through a gamut of emotions - first, the thrill of just seeing an email from me. He was nervously excited and then horribly sad that it was only those two words. Then massively confused because he didn't know how to answer. Did he answer for my sake or his. And then he admitted that he didn't have an answer that would be helpful to either of us and no real reasonable answer at all.

So he sat down and tried to focus at AP and answer the question. And he said he felt he found a friend who seemed easy to talk to and was likable. He never initially saw her in any romantic way. He likened it to putting a frog in a pot of water and slowly turning up the heat. (The victim position is how I interpreted that.) Then when I was away or working they would hang out a bit more - running an errand together here and there, then grabbing a coffee or lunch while out because that's what you do (sure, with your partner!) And slowly relationship lines and conversation were blurred and became more personal. And it wasn't about the person but about the "friendship" (which all seems very superficial to me because I was his friend!) But he always knew it was wrong and deceitful and had the potential for destruction and didn't know how to stop, hadn't thought it out and didn't know what to do.

Now of course he says he sees it for the damage it has done which far exceeds what he ever imagined...a massively destructive decision (I give him credit for not calling it a mistake) to let someone into our life that never should have been there. That she means nothing to him. That at an individual level there is nothing about her that makes her special to him other than she seemed to care about him and he got a "high" from that. But he was devastatingly wrong about her and them and all of it and is sorry but doesn't know how to fix it.

The most important thing he wrote that stands out most to me..."I didn't like the person I was when I was with her. I'm not proud about that.". He gave no details and no insight into why he wrote that but it stood out to me in so much as he's admitting he was a bad person.

He didn't go into anymore detail and only answered the question. I'm sure it's damage control because he has no idea what I know but he knows I know a lot. To his credit he still has not asked me how I know. Hopefully he's doing his own research on how to handle this and learning to not deflect from the real damage. Who knows. I'm only guessing.

Lastly he asked about my return date because he doesn't know my plans at all. He hopes I reach out again. He wants to see me.

He wants, he hopes, he needs...but he also did say first and foremost he wants what's best for me and will wait until I tell him what that is...as though I have even a clue!

I have to fly back in a couple of days. Work beckons, life goes on, the world doesn't stop just because I need it to. I'm still so lost,so confused,so destroyed and so sad. But I'll get up again tomorrow and fake it. What else can I do?

What an effin mess!

(The victim position is how I interpreted that.)

I think he was just using the analogy rather than claiming victim status.

However, as I’ve said before, I actually do think he was a victim to your highly predatory OW’s jealousy of you and overweening ambition to become new Mrs Speedbump.

Again, that does not absolve him (which he also admits), but I do think he was played - big time. And was receptive, because of all the other reasons mentioned on this thread, and the most obvious one for me simply being boredom, and needing company. A slippery slope that he let himself slither down, too late once you’re on it.

Do read Shirley Glass’s Not Just Friends.

I'm glad your WH answered your question Speedbump. I agree with you that he did so in a very 'grown up' way too. I also give him credit for using the word 'decision' and not calling it all a big mistake.

While he absolutely did also decide to participate in that most cruel 'game' with OW - it does seem to me that the game for him is now over. However, given the extreme cruelty of that game, if I were you and were ever to think about reconciling with him I'd have to have him admit to playing it. I also think OW was a predatory sociopath. Not that that excuses your husband for going along with it - but I'd absolutely have to have him admit that he did.

For that reason, I'd now ask him to prepare a detailed timeline of the affair. Including all aspects of it. Every. Single. Sickening. Detail. Everything they did, talked about, or planned - from beginning to end. Thoroughly. i.e. What they said about you. Any gifts they bought each other - how they were chosen, where were they bought, how were they given etc., (this mainly to see if he admits to any of the games they played on you - like the kiss in your presence, the present under the tree. Any nicknames, daily rituals, absolutely everything. Tell him, you think you know 99% of it already - there's not much he could say that would surprise you, but it is an absolute requirement of yours that he personally admit it all to you in detail; and if he misses out even one thing you that you already know about, there'll be no chance of reconciliation ever.

If you're not even considering reconciling with him, then if he does write it, don't read it. Because if he's honest this will be an exceptionally painful thing to read. (and hopefully for him to write too) But if you are even remotely considering reconciliation, then I think because of the nature of that affair, you need to see him admit to what he did and at the very least explain how he feels about that now.

It seems to me as though he is trying to be honest now. I would test that theory out. I don't think there's any way you can reconcile until he at least admits fully to what he did. As I've said before, I do personally think the game for him is now totally over.

On another note, reading about your mixed feelings about absolutely everything is so normal Speedbump. I'm sorry your trip is over so soon. Is there anyone you can stay with when you go back? A friend? Or are you going to book into a hotel?

(((((SpeedBump)))))

I'm glad that you got a reply to your question. I am concerned that he seemed to put a great deal of effort into describing and drawing you into caring about his emotional state than he actually put into answering your question.

He seems very skilled at wording things in such a way that leaves you wanting to know more about him. Very, very skilled at it. Too skilled in fact. Especially when you consider that this is coming from the same guy who gaslights you without batting an eyelash. It reminded me greatly of something that my STBXWH would routinely say and do.

Just remember that time is your friend and not his. Given enough time where he is not calling all of the shots according to how fast he wants you to go back to him, your WH will show his cruelty and indifference to your suffering. Those games that he played were his doing. He just happened to find someone willing to play it with him. His gaslighting and dismissing of your concerns and feelings prior to you reading their messages proves that. His refusal to talk about his late wife also proves that. He didn't care anything at all about how it made you feel, but fully expected you to bow to what he wanted and how he felt way before the neighbor came along.

To me, his affair is a symptom of a much larger picture of indifference and psychological abuse that he has been putting you through. Perhaps this is the wake up call that you were needing to see his demand for low expectations on your part for the toxic insecurity making that it is.

If you don't want to meet with him, then have your lawyer have any discussions with him about it all. If you do meet with him, just be prepared for the high pressure sales pitch by him of you giving him another chance. Given his refusal to talk about his first marriage under the guise of being a widower and his ability to so easily cheat on you the moment he had someone willing to join him in his twisted games, it leads me to believe that this isn't his first experience with being a WH. How does an adult get this far along in life and not realize how devastating it would be to cheat on his wife? Doesn't add up.

F1

While not in a complete panic like what happened before my flight a couple of weeks ago, I am anxious about my impending return home. I have very conflicting thoughts and emotions - I don't want to see WH / I do want to see him.

When you are overwhelmed with anxiety think about taking baby steps. Would it help to fly back but stay at a hotel? or got a furnished apartment? Next step could be another message and answer from WH. "Why the twisted games?" something that you just can't see getting past. Book an IC for you to meet with regularly. Focus on work, yourself and babysteps forward.

I felt like your WH had a mature answer for you to a very difficult question. It also sounds like he was telling the truth.

It seems like high anxiety and letting out angry emotions is difficult for you to the detriment of your health. You've been through hell, remind yourself that there is no timetable to reconcile or divorce and take the babysteps you need to make the decision in a healthy way.

I actually do think he was a victim to your highly predatory OW

If I may bring a different opinion... When I read about WS being victim of a predatory woman or (more often) a “player”, it gives me pause.

The WS “victims” are grown man/woman and they know what they are doing. I cannot imagine a scenario where a “predatory woman” would force me to cheat on my wife.

Kindly, Edie, do you think a “player” could make you a victim and make you become a mad hatter?

Speedbump, he will need to own up to what he did. Why her? Because she was the nearest shitty woman that didmind sleeping with a married man. If it hadn’t been her, it would have been another one down the road.

So his prior relationship commented on unresolved issues being widowed and now you are noticing the same thing.

So the AP is able to connect through a shared experience that they were both widowed.

I posted this one page back. I’m not suggesting D or R.

But his issues in life have nothing to do with you. You know that. It his issues need to be addressed before you consider anything with him.

What stands out to me is not the Affair. Everyone here at SI has been victimized by infidelity. It is the cruel game they played on you. The taunting. The gaslighting. The daring. The smirks. The laughing. All of it.

I don’t know if I could get past that aspect of it. And I have reconciled with my H and I was able to get past him kicking me to the curb. So I have it in me to forgive.

Just not sure I could forgive the acts of cruelty.

I think you are handling this very well.

If you do meet him just be prepared for the love bombing. It’s what cheaters do.

Kindly, Edie, do you think a “player” could make you a victim and make you become a mad hatter?

Kindly...? 😝

Target is of course a much better word.

The feelings you're going through are absolutely normal, SpeedBump. I hate you - I love you, GTFO - come back, etc., etc. It's the roller coaster, second guessing, questioning that a betrayed does. You are still early in this so it's going to go on for a while yet. It's another layer of shit in the shit sandwich.

I really question the concept of the predatory AP. They're out there. I'm only aware of males I would classify as that throughout my life. It's up to the individual to be on guard. It was up to my WW to protect our marriage as I did with a few females. Instead she took over after the very first feeble indication of potential interest from him. It was up to your husband, SpeedBump, to protect your marriage. It shouldn't have mattered if she came to him naked. It was up to him.

Your husband wasn't some little bunny frozen because of a predator. He was an active participant. WSs are active participants. It was him who sent a text to her saying you were on your way home using the derogatory nickname and for her to text you to send him with "tools" to help her out. He instigated that. He wasn't played. He actively participated and how would you know if he didn't actually instigate.

I hope the time away let you build strength, SpeedBump. It probably is time to go back and face it. I don't know if you need to face him directly. That will be your call. Certainly it's understandable to never want to step foot inside your house again. I wonder if it would ever feel like a home again.

You have lots to deal with. Wishing you strength of mind and clarity of thought.

SB, I have stuck my nose in this post too many times but I am like the others I am appalled at the psychological warfare practiced against you. There is no other way to call it. You need to find out what he thought was going to happen. Was he waiting for your nervous breakdown? Well, in that case he won. Was he planning on just continuing this forever? That wouldn’t work because you are not stupid and eventually would have caught on. Right now he is standing in his own shit.

I think you need to give yourself a great deal of time before you make any decision. Not only has this damaged you as a wife it has sliced you off at the knees as actual victim of a psychological game.

My daughter has to fly to Europe periodically and she has found that she really enjoys AirBnB. She said that the places you stay are actual homes so you can settle in. She said if you get a good one it’s set up with all the electronic needs you might have. She said it makes her trips so much better. You can either choose something like that or have him move out and then you stay in your own home.

Your choice of course but why does he need to know when you are coming back. If you want him out of the house then of course in order to get him out he will know when you’re coming home. If you are not going to stay there he doesn’t need to know until you want him to know. This is all about your health. It is about your mental, psychological and physical health.. You don’t fall apart to the point that you did unless you were in danger. That is what put you in the hospital.. I also find it so sad that after you left the hospital you were by yourself in the condo. That’s just heartbreaking.

Every one who has posted on here knows pain from cheating. What has got us so angry on your behalf is the slow killing of your sense of security and self worth. Others have felt that but none of us have been systematically plotted against.

You need answers about his first marriage. Do you know people who knew him back then? If you feel up to it do a little digging. Did/does he have friends from back then? Does he have family he stays in touch with. How close is he to his son? Would his son be horrified at his actions?

While you were in the joyful stage of being in a new place and exploring with a person you love he was getting bored. This is why I don’t think able bodied men should EVER retire. They inevitably get into trouble. It isn’t this bad but it’s usually something. Some men work with Habitat for Humanity, others work at food kitchens, some golf,some cheat and a small number decide to torture their wives.

Hope you are healing!

[This message edited by Cooley2here at 7:30 AM, February 7th (Thursday)]

Your question"why her?" was perfect. It was the mirror that allowed him to stare at his own reflection. He may have just actually seen himself for the first time.

Or he may be a skilled sociopath carefully tailoring his answer to tug at your heart. Unfortunately the two possible explanations are indistinguishable.

When I read about WS being victim of a predatory woman or (more often) a “player”, it gives me pause.

Yeah, it's more like the player gives "victim" permission to be themselves.

[This message edited by HouseOfPlane at 8:33 AM, February 7th (Thursday)]

I agreewith steadychevy SB’s husband is responsible for his actions.

I’m also wondering why he never asked speedbump how she found out. Maybe because he already knows.