SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

OK, you're pitch perfect, and thanks for such a mature and balanced approach to all of this.

RIO, I absolutely hate the OW in my situation. She befriended me expressly to hit on my WH (and he's a dumbass, don't think I excuse his role in this), and stalked my young teenage son through his social media connection to her daughter. Hate her. I would never, EVER, encourage her (now ex) BH to coerce her sexually. Nope. In fact, when I didn't know about the A, she got falling-down drunk at a bar with us and was being ogled by bar rats as an easy alley-fuck. I insisted that we drive her an hour roundtrip home rather than leave her there. I don't regret that decision at all, and no one could loathe their OP more than I do, believe me.

Anyone who thinks women don't speak as crudely to each other as men do hasn't spent much time around a group of women

Anyone who thinks women don't speak as crudely to each other as men do hasn't spent much time around a group of women

Truth, lol.

The best advice comes in the form of questions.

encourage her (now ex) BH to coerce her sexually. Nope. In fact, when I didn't know about the A, she got falling-down drunk at a bar with us and was being ogled by bar rats as an easy alley-fuck. I insisted that we drive her an hour roundtrip home rather than leave her there. I don't regret that decision at all, and no one could loathe their OP more than I do, believe me.

Your a far, far better person than me, that's all I can really say to this. I still get warmth in my heart thinking about the opposite of sexual coercion happening to the OM; his wife refusing his advances; honestly, I hope he never has sex again with anyone (assuming his wife is happy with that arrangement). In fact, it's one of the best thoughts I can have about him, imagining the "price he paid" for the few times he got to have sex with my W. I could have made him pay even more (and didn't), but I just have trouble even conceiving of something I wouldn't be "OK" with happening to him. If he was at a bar and I happened to be there and saw him getting ready to get jumped and beat to a pulp, I'd pull up a chair and take pictures. He assaulted me in the absolute worst way possible; I wouldn't lift a single finger to stop something awful from happening to him.

The only thing I wouldn't have encouraged his BW to do would be to D him because it would have directly had a negative impact on me, he would have been hounding my wife endlessly if that happened. But sure, you want to put him in chastity for the rest of his life? By all means, be my guest, in fact, call me up and let me know how he's getting on with it. Now, that said, if it was ANYONE else, I would never recommend that (for a BW) because I think it would backfire, but there's simply no punishment too harsh in my eyes for what he did.

I trust that you hate your H's AP just as much as I hate my W's, I'm just not nearly as good a person as you. About to get your ass kicked in an alley, fall down drunk, well.. Actions, meet consequences.

The phase I think I saw here first was "wouldn't walk across the street to pee on him if he was on fire". That's about how I feel about him. Where you were concerned enough about her to drive her home, I honestly wouldn't trust myself to be anywhere in private with my W's AP for fear.. Well, kind of goes without saying, right?

Bluntness saved my life. No joke.

Same here man. I really was totally unprepared for the reality of what happened. My wife didn't even "like sex" (her own words to me), no way she went on a f**k fest with the OM, I'm sure it was all e-mail, roses and chocolate. Yeah, not so much. Probably the thing that hit me the hardest was when a guy said to me, "RIO, dude, think about it. You know guys who cheat, what do they do? Imagine yourself in that situation, risking your marriage, you going to even consider doing that for chocolates and long walks on the beach??". And that's the one that really broke through, "Imagine what you'd do and assume that's what happened" well.. Made my blood run cold when I first heard it, and honestly, turned out to be darn near 100% accurate, at least in my case. He did what I'd do, and the guys I know who have affairs, again, do what I'd do. It's very predictable, which is why it's easy to have a good idea, even with very few details, as to what actually happened when you've seen the same story repeated many times before.

Anyone who thinks women don't speak as crudely to each other as men do hasn't spent much time around a group of women

I hear this said, and, while I'll never be able to prove it one way or another, I really have a extraordinarily difficult time believing it's true. Maybe it is, IDK, but I honestly think that neither sex has a really good handle how the other sex tends to talk when not around the other. I used to see pictures of the APs in various states of undress along with detailed accounts of the sexual encounters from WH's. Was my wife relaying that information to her girlfriends? IDK, maybe she was talking about how big his d**k was and how good he was in bed, but.. I guess who knows, right?

[This message edited by Rideitout at 10:20 AM, August 13th (Thursday)]

One of the APs in my situation got killed in a hit and run. I....don't care. Can't care. I caught myself mostly being pissed that her picture showed up on the news to trigger me.

This is not a thing that I'm proud of. It's not healthy. This person had an awful life and this was a sad ending to it. I just cannot and could not for the life of me care. Just made me feel cold. I hope that I would have rescued her from a bad situation, but I don't know if I have it in me to have cared enough to.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 10:21 AM, August 13th (Thursday)]

Chamomile,

I just posted elsewhere.

ThisIs,

It will never end and it's a puzzle which cannot be solved and a waste of your rational brain to try and solve it. People like him should be writing fantasy novels after being castrated.

I don't treat WHs with kid gloves, it's that I don't post to BW threads all that much. My opinion of WHs is that they are often men dressed in clown suits who think everyone sees them as superman.

I hear this said, and, while I'll never be able to prove it one way or another, I really have a extraordinarily difficult time believing it's true. Maybe it is, IDK, but I honestly think that neither sex has a really good handle how the other sex tends to talk when not around the other. I used to see pictures of the APs in various states of undress along with detailed accounts of the sexual encounters from WH's. Was my wife relaying that information to her girlfriends? IDK, maybe she was talking about how big his d**k was and how good he was in bed, but.. I guess who knows, right?

Trust that we talk about sex in excruciating detail and in quite crude ways. I don't know that your wife did that.

It's kind of adorable that you don't know this, in the way it's precious when a man curses and then excuses himself to me. L. O. freakin' L.

Thank you for your honesty Dee. I think I'd feel exactly the same way, maybe worse (finally got what's coming to him), but, even the "best version" of myself that I can imagine is "His poor kids" and not a single lick of concern for him.

This is not a thing that I'm proud of. It's not healthy.

On this point, I simply could not agree more. It's not the least bit healthy. But it's not like we were given a choice in the matter, we didn't decide to hate someone like this, someone else made this happen. It's not something I'm proud of, in fact, I kind of think of myself as someone who cares too much about other people most of the time, so it's really hard for me to come to terms with "wishing someone was dead" and actually feeling that internally. But I didn't choose this, he and my W made this situation, I'm just reacting to it. I kind of see it like being drafted, given a gun, and pointed at the enemy. Did you wake up that day hoping to kill someone? Most people, no, they did not, at least not before they go through something designed specifically for the goal of getting you to depersonalize and hate other people. But, at that moment, you really don't have a choice anymore, the situation is what it is, and you're just playing your part, ready to kill anyone who walks by because of the situation you've been forced into. It's sad, it really is; but neither you nor I choose this for ourselves, our spouses created the situation for it to happen.

Another of the many reasons why "affairs are bad"; I didn't want to see and become intimate with this part of myself, but.. Here we sit.

It's kind of adorable that you don't know this, in the way it's precious when a man curses and then excuses himself to me. L. O. freakin' L.

:) But, it's not entirely my fault. A lot of women act as if they are (let's use my wife here) completely without a sexual thought in the world. And completely hide this part of themselves from the men in their lives. Trust me, I never for a second asked her to hide from me about this part of herself, in fact, I asked for the opposite! I appreciate your honesty, I just wish it was more common, at least in my day to day life.

[This message edited by Rideitout at 10:34 AM, August 13th (Thursday)]

Another of the many reasons why "affairs are bad"; I didn't want to see and become intimate with this part of myself, but.. Here we sit.

Yes. That is it exactly, the part that bothers me so much about it. I became someone who could hear my XWH, a man I had loved deeply at one time, threaten suicide and feel like "sure, just get it over with and stop fucking with me" and not care about a woman dying young and tragically. I could have done without knowing that I could be that person.

:) But, it's not entirely my fault. A lot of women act as if they are (let's use my wife here) completely without a sexual thought in the world. And completely hide this part of themselves from the men in their lives. Trust me, I never for a second asked her to hide from me about this part of herself, in fact, I asked for the opposite! I appreciate your honesty, I just wish it was more common, at least in my day to day life.

This is a case of us all being caught in societal expectations. Let's be honest, am I going to be respected if I show up in a group of men and say "godDAMN I got some good dick last night!"? My girls, sure, we can say that to each other. I can say that sort of thing to a couple of male friends. The average guy would likely put me into a box entitled "whore" and treat me like an object instead of a person. Probably tell others I was nasty. No respect as a human being given. So women know to limit that kind of talk to a certain audience in order to navigate the world.

Same here man. I really was totally unprepared for the reality of what happened. My wife didn't even "like sex" (her own words to me), no way she went on a f**k fest with the OM, I'm sure it was all e-mail, roses and chocolate. Yeah, not so much. Probably the thing that hit me the hardest was when a guy said to me, "RIO, dude, think about it. You know guys who cheat, what do they do? Imagine yourself in that situation, risking your marriage, you going to even consider doing that for chocolates and long walks on the beach??". And that's the one that really broke through, "Imagine what you'd do and assume that's what happened" well.. Made my blood run cold when I first heard it, and honestly, turned out to be darn near 100% accurate, at least in my case. He did what I'd do, and the guys I know who have affairs, again, do what I'd do. It's very predictable, which is why it's easy to have a good idea, even with very few details, as to what actually happened when you've seen the same story repeated many times before

"Imagine what you'd do and assume that's what happened," is a far cry from "Dude, she took it up the ass and she loved it."

I'm absolutely on board with the first statement. I'm absolutely on board with telling the truth. I'm absolutely not okay with beating someone who is freshly hurt over the head with the crudest terms available repeated ad nauseum.

In reference to GrayShades saying she wouldn't want the OW assaulted and RIO saying she's a better person than he is:

I don't care how much I despise or detest a woman, I wouldn't want her sexually assaulted or raped. Because I wouldn't want the rapist to have that enjoyment.

That's what is bothering me about the blowjob/car thing. I'm all for sadistic play when it's consensual, but a man who can actually get off on that level of coercion is very problematic to me. I would hope - HOPE - that most men couldn't perform in that circumstance.

[This message edited by JanaGreen at 10:46 AM, August 13th (Thursday)]

OKOKOK - GREAT POST. You get it entirely. Thank you.

This thread has turned into a lot of women vs men talk but...

Can we actually DEFINE what BURN THE WITCH actually is...?

Is there a member of the BTW group on this thread that can clarify the beliefs of this group?

To break it down, is BTW:

1. The philosophy of taking control of your situation, R is not an option with a WW, file for D and never look back

2. Shaming and hostility towards BHes who are seen as weak for not filing for D immediately

3. Dehumanizing the WW

4. Hating ALL women not just WW

Or some combination of the 4?

I knew 2 posters who were pro-BTW who were ONLY #1. But I have seen a lot of #2 and a little of #3...maybe a tiny bit of #4.

I'm totally cool with #1. No it is not right for everyone, but it is right for some BH and a message that every BH should hear.

#2 and #3 can be VERY GRAY areas...when does "tough love" turn into hostility and shaming? That line is going to be different for everyone, and each BH will have different interpretations; some will be offended and some won't. Nasty comments against WW is also a gray area...posters say horrible things about Waywards and APs of both genders all the time, and sometimes it is tolerated and sometimes it crosses lines.

#4 is not OK ever.

Just my opinion but I think BTW is primarily #1 with a sprinkling of #2 and #3, which occasionally crosses lines. Of course there are a few BTW posters who are way too heavy into 2, 3 and 4, but I don't think they are representative of the group....or are they????

Oh for fuck's sake.

I am BLUNT. IRL I am honest to a fault and pull no punches with my communication style. My friends know not to ask me for my honest opinion unless they really want it, cus I will actually tell them their ass looks like two puppies wrestling in a sack in those pants. And wonder of wonders - I actually appreciate that sort of bald honesty in return!

But if a friend comes to me in pain, needing comfort, needing empathy... I DON'T UNLOAD ON THEM no matter what my opinion is. When they are hurting it is not the time for that. To me that is just being a fucking bully and kicking someone when they're already down.

I read stories on SI that make we want to reach through the screen and shake people. Of course when I see a BS falling into so many of the traps I did it makes me crazy on their behalf. But part of being an empathetic person/listener/reader is meeting that BS where they are at right then. And a LOT of the new ones just are not in a headspace yet to really receive a blunt message in a beneficial way. And I believe that applies equally to BH's and BW's. Just my opinion, but I think there is a way to give truth that is both firm and empathetic. Not softening it, but in a way that might actually HELP a BS to start navigating the minefield of infidelity instead of making them feel like a fucking idiot for not doing A B or C immediately, or not immediately believing [fill in the blank - 'your ww is a whore', 'your wh is fucking the ap 5 times a week']. IMHO I just think that kind of inflammatory in-your-face language ultimately does more harm to the BS than good.

And let it be said that IRL conversation I refer to my exdouche's ap as either the twatnugget or the c***cake - after what she did, I have fucking earned the right to give her whatever nicknames I choose. But when a new BH lands here, especially one that is still hurting and nursing feelings of love for his ww, me calling her a douchetwat or whatever is likely to hurt the BH or to make him feel like he needs to defend her - I know that first hand from my early days here when I still cared and more than once I found myself in a position of defending him. Course I look back on that now and kinda shake my head that I actually defended the dickless wonder. But a week after getting here, I wasn't in the same mental space as I would be 6 months down the road. And thanks to posters like CT, like Dee, Like so many others that supported me while simultaneously being blunt and honest with their experiences I am now the fabulous specimen you see today.

TLDR - Don't be a dick. Treat new BS's with kindness and compassion and support them in their journey. I just don't see why that should be a difficult thing to do.

Just my 0.02.

And thanks to posters like CT, like Dee, Like so many others that supported me while simultaneously being blunt and honest with their experiences I am now the fabulous specimen you see today.

You were always fabulous.

You're right, it's not that hard to be honest without being cruel.

RIO, I'm sure there are women who wish their WH's AP was raped in a dark alley, but that's not an expression of someone who is mature or even close to emotionally healthy, IMHO. I'd rather the AP in my case live with what she's done (she does have a conscience, just a complete toxic and disgusting mess, and I exposed her to a wide swath of people whose opinion she cares about). If she'd been assaulted, that would turn her into a victim, and she'd love nothing more than that -- she's a poor little rich "girl". And I would never wish that her children suffer anymore from her actions -- her being raped would inevitably impact them. However, if I ever see her again (and I probably will bc she lives 30+ minutes away but her best friend lives about 4 blocks from me), it's a toss up if I slap her or just make her leave. She's afraid of me, and she should be, and it's not because she's physically intimidated.

I would encourage you to examine how and why you justify bombarding BH with cruelty. You are clearly angry still (as am I), but I don't see any justification for that. Crudity is one thing, cruelty is something different*. I suspect it does not help BH heal even if it does lead some of them to rightfully dump their WWs sooner than they would have otherwise. I see no justification for it, and it speaks to things about you that I encourage you to work through. You can still hate the AP but they'll recede into the background, as they should, over time.

I'm very much in favor of our helping each other and drafting posts that help readers heal.

I think it's essential to get real, however. It's essential to know what we know, what we don't know, what we surmise, and the probabilities that our surmises are correct.

Plenty of "dude, she's lying, she f**ked him six ways from Sunday" and "I guarantee you she was a freak with him" and "Loved every inch of him" and plenty of the same stuff that often gets thrown at BHs here. You know what? While hard to read at the time, I'll say 2 things. First, and most importantly, nearly EVERY thing they said turned out to be true....

Even a stopped clock is right once or twice a day. It's absolutely impossible to know if the charges are valid or not based on a JFO post.

No one on the web knows anything more about an anonymous writer than what the writer writes. GoldenR's approach looks best to me.

I started on another forum where I got essentially the same feedback as quoted above. I was not impressed with the quality of that forum. First, they were so blinded by their own ideology that they mis-characterized my W's A, and 2nd, I didn't need a wake-up call.

I'm sorry the BTW fantasies turned out to be true - but did it really make a difference? Would bad sex one time with om really be any better or worse than freaky sex? Would it really have changed your outcome?

Besides, WRT the BH's healing and the BH's decisions, the BH needs to learn to be his own guide and to act in his own best interests. What the WS did or didn't do is irrelevant to figuring out how to do those things.

The problem with people being “Brutally Honest” isn’t the Honest part, fer’ fucks sakes, it’s the fucking Brutal part.

Every single example given here for the necessity of shaking a BS’ out of their daze... Every. Single. One. Could just as easily be accomplished with that same level of honesty gently and compassionately delivered.

It’s about reading the fucking room folks. If I am a BH venting and calling my wife a whore then I suppose I am inviting the group to pile on with the venting. But if a BH is here hurting and confused looking for support? How in the hell is it remotely helpful to go ahead and pile on a bunch of fucking reenforcement of all the horrible emasculating shit he is already fucking thinking about himself?

And, as an aside, anyone here that says they haven’t seen that shit is either not reading thoroughly or has so thoroughly acclimated themselves to that kind of thinking that it simply fails to fucking register with them. Because I can tell you that when I see some of that shit pop up in a thread it stands out bright and bold, it fucking stops me up short. I fucking notice it. (And no, I am not going to go and gather supporting fucking documents for anyone either. If the sheer number of members, both male and female, posting here about seeing it isn’t convincing enough then I can’t imagine there would be any fucking point)

And I certainly wouldn’t characterize myself as some kind of language police or fan of censorship. Hell, I use the word fuck like it’s fucking punctuation for fucks sake! But even I can see that there is a time and a place and a situation for some kinds of communication and there are times, places and situations where another approach is more merited.

How is this even controversial?

1. Okokokok

Outstanding post , worth putting in the library under the heading “ what men can say to other men that will 100 percent be helpful to them and also help female bystanders instead of adding to their pain“

2. RIO

About the pile of poop , yes we should warn the BS that the world has given then shit to eat and they have to triumphantly burrow a tunnel through that shit pile while blindfolded and with a knife stuck in their heart .

But when angry men scream sexualized shit to each other it does seem like women are the shit and they have to treated with contempt for the man to “ win “

3. Just a quick word on women and their comfort with sexual vulgarities - loads of women and i suspect alot of men truly dislike salty language and although i personally think its usually harmless its not so harmless when its relentlessly directed only to women.