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Walloped, would adding another day of professional therapy going forward for the next few months help your healing? Seems like the added time Thursday night helped you process.

Pope Francis's message last night in Madison Square Garden was that God is alive & faith is a matter of the heart. Below is one of our favorite quotes from the Late Dr. Wayne Dyer.

Peace is the result of retraining your mind to process life as it is, rather than as you think it is.

Peace & Prayers this weekend to your family.

Peace is the result of retraining your mind to process life as it is, rather than as you thin it should be. Dr Wayne Dyer

And frankly, the first 3 of your questions look somewhat broad and imprecise. For instance:

(1). All questions means what. All questions over the last several weeks? Including the ones she lied on and then later admitted lying?

(2) other than what you already know. Does she know everything you already know? Better to ask: since DDay has there been any contact with POS other than --- and then list each one you know of.

(3). What part(s) of conversation are you asking about? Perhaps ask in that conversation was there any discussion or comment at all of leaving me or divorcing me. A simple yes or no

(4). This is a clear cut yes or no. Good question, well phrased

I 100% agree with this. The first 3 questions are not specific enough and are setting the results up to be inconclusive or a possible fail, and that result is the LAST thing you need right now. Please consider 1985's advice and words about this.

I like reading your story -- there's not much drama involved. I'm watching 2 people struggle to make their way through a bad situation....and you guys seem to be doing a decent job of it. I hesitate to say that I believe she's remorseful but I feel confident in saying that she is not unremorseful.

(Caveat: My ex was unremorseful but he was able to *act* at remorse real well when the situation called for it.)

But, if I had to pick, I would tend towards your WW being remorseful -- it's really hard for an unremorseful person to sustain "fake remorse" with such consistency and over such a long time period.

You are doing fine. You are taking baby steps and I don't see that as a problem at all.

W:

It can be somewhat easy to second guess yourself.

You are doing fine in a lousy situation.

Get through the poly and you will have a clearer picture.

Get through the poly and you will have a clearer picture.

Actually just get to the parking lot for the poly and you will have a clearer picture.

Actually just get to the parking lot for the poly and you will have a clearer picture.

"Parking lot confessions" cannot be trusted - for obvious reasons.

Thanks for pointing out the vagueness of the poly questions. I'm going to rewrite and fine tune so they are more specific and pointed.

Went out last night. Just a local coffee / light dessert type place. No affair talk. Was very awkward for a while. What was I going to say, "So...what's new?"

She started talking a little about the kids and we picked it up from there. It went okay I guess. We were too careful and silences were awkward to say the least, but it was a step. She tried smiling a few times at me. I wasn't cold just lukewarm. It was hard frankly. This is a mess. I mean my writing. I'm not doing a good job of this one. Probably because I don't really know or haven't processed how I'm feeling yet. Sorry. We're going out for brunch tomorrow.

I gave her the consequences of failing the poly speech today. Told her that the absolute worst thing she could do is lie and fail. That just like we tell the kids if they lie and we find out after its worse than if they just admitted things upfront, the same holds true for her. That a big part of evaluating whether she's someone now who I can see reconciling with is trust which has been shattered. She needs to earn that back and if she already lied further or hasn't yet disclosed something, but tells me now, that's bad. But if she lies about it now and fails, that's 1,000 times worse. And it will send a message to me that she's more interested in protecting herself or POS than she is in us staying married. And that if she really wants us to have a shot at R, she needs to be 100% truthful. And if she's concerned about failing, talk to me now. Tell me why. I told her to think about what I said and check back with me tomorrow. We'll see what she does.

[This message edited by Walloped at 10:58 PM, September 26th (Saturday)]

Best of luck man.

The Hail Mary for the next 72 hours has been thrown. There is literally nothing to do except hope your receivers can haul it in.

There is beauty in simplicity.

Walloped, I have followed your story from the very first. I have been hoping and praying for the best possible outcome for you and your family. Even though I am actually over 4 years older than you, I realize that I have far less experience with relationships than you, because I never married. But I would like to offer this bit of advice if I may. If you, or more experienced posters disagree I will bow to your experience. I remember reading some posters said that after an affair, it is as if your starting a completely new marriage or relationship. So what I would like to suggest, is when you go out with Mrs. W maybe act like you are dating for the first time. Maybe try to look at her as a girlfriend you really would like to get to know. I was thinking maybe some of the awkwardness may have come from you thinking you knew everything about her, so what do you say. So....what would you say if that was a first date? Maybe take her places you never went together before, ask her about things even if you think you already know how she feels about it. Try to make new experiences. If you go to a coffee shop, even after over 20 years of marriage you know what she likes, ask her if she would like a different coffee. This is just something that kinda popped up in my mind tonight after reading your post. I hope it is helpful.

W

Your ww already liyed about breaking contact dedpite you told her that the consequence would be D. I know that is kind of a free pass because she was in the fog, still comfude,etc.

IMO you should explain to her that this is not going to happen agsin and that every lie will have consequences. Explian to her

as well that everi lie she already told you is what has put more distance between you.

I am glan you are trying to get out of limbo, take it easy, one day at the time.

R takes a lot of time so dont gove up until a few months have passed, of course if are new discoverys or she breaks NC or any other dealbresker takes place you should leave her.

last thing, there will be missunderstanding that may seems like she is hidding things, or if OM breaks NC and she doesnt tell you, etc. For some BS any of these thing is a dealbreaker, seems not fair but her A was far less fair...explain this to her even if for you are not dealbreakers as thay can seetle you back

Bro-hugs and best wishes!

Couple of thoughts:

- Physical intimacy: Get her to scratch your back or wash your hair. Just sit in a movie theatre next to each other sharing a bucket of popcorn in your lap. For you, practice letting the evil thoughts creep into your head, ask yourself is that what you really, really, really want to think about at that moment, and then move your awareness on to something else. You can do this. You get to decide what you stare at. You are not possessed.

- Going out an doing stuff: Talking will be tough for a while. You want to talk about what you are thinking about. So go do stuff instead. Bike ride, hike, movie, tennis. Take a cooking class. Etc.

Some common keys to success from survivors of all ilk, whether or infidelity or shark attacks, that I have posted on my profile. You're doing all this stuff already, just letting you know you are on course for whichever path you choose.

****

I read the book "Deep Survival" some years ago, where it talked about how people survive catastrophes like plane crashes or getting lost. I immediately saw the parallels to discovering infidelity, where you find yourself instantly lost in a hostile emotional landscape every bit as stressful (though maybe not quite as life-threatening) as getting dropped into a jungle. So here's the 12 points, and they are generally valid:

http://www.securitywhip.com/2010/07/18/the-12-rules-of-survival/

1. Perceive and Believe

Don’t fall into the deadly trap of denial or of immobilizing fear. Admit it: You’re really in trouble and you’re going to have to get yourself out.

2. Stay Calm – Use Your Anger

In the initial crisis, survivors are not ruled by fear; instead, they make use of it. Their fear often feels like (and turns into) anger, which motivates them and makes them feel sharper.

3. Think, Analyze, and Plan

Survivors quickly organize, set up routines, and institute discipline.

4. Take Correct, Decisive Action

Survivors are willing to take risks to save themselves and others. But they are simultaneously bold and cautious in what they will do.

5. Celebrate your success

Survivors take great joy from even their smallest successes. This helps keep motivation high and prevents a lethal plunge into hopelessness. It also provides relief from the unspeakable strain of a life-threatening situation.

6. Be a Rescuer, Not a Victim

Survivors are always doing what they do for someone else, even if that someone is thousands of miles away. There are numerous strategies for doing this.

7. Enjoy the Survival Journey

It may seem counterintuitive, but even in the worst circumstances, survivors find something to enjoy, some way to play and laugh.

8. See the Beauty

Survivors are attuned to the wonder of their world, especially in the face of mortal danger. The appreciation of beauty, the feeling of awe, opens the senses to the environment.

9. Believe That You Will Succeed

It is at this point, following what I call “the vision,” that the survivor’s will to live becomes firmly fixed.

10. Surrender

Yes you might die. In fact, you will die — we all do. But perhaps it doesn’t have to be today. Don’t let it worry you. Forget about rescue. Everything you need is inside you already.

11. Do Whatever Is Necessary

Survivors have a reason to live and are willing to bet everything on themselves. They have what psychologists call meta-knowledge: They know their abilities and do not over or underestimate them. They believe that anything is possible and act accordingly.

12. Never Give Up

Survivors are not easily discouraged by setbacks. They accept that the environment is constantly changing and know that they must adapt. When they fall, they pick themselves up and start the entire process over again, breaking it down into manageable bits.

HoP, I love that list!

Thank you for sharing it.

I think #12 is especially important for the WS to embrace.

So brunch didn't work out so well. Again, awkward. I tried to think of it as a date. She was too smiley or maybe trying too hard. Regardless, in the middle I had some kind of stress attack and said I can't do this and we were going too fast. I told her I still have major issues and will for a while and the key thing is I don't really know who she is anymore. I can't just pick up as if this didn't happen and try to reconnect. She said that I know who she is, more than anyone, so I said I thought I did. But the wife I knew never would have done what she did. So she said how sorry she was that she hurt me the way she did and how she did the most horrible thing a person could do to someone they love and she'll forever be ashamed of herself. She wants to help me, and of course she said that selfishly she wants us to stay together and she knows she has a ton of work to do to help make that happen, but that she would never, ever do this to me again. And I said how do I know that? And she said she's changed. And I said, I don't believe you. I told her I think she thinks she's changed, but 2 months is nothing and whatever issues there were that led her to make the choices she did are still there, so how can she say that she won't do this again? She thought about that and said I was right. But she said it's not that whatever was inside her that allowed her to choose to cheat on me is not there anymore, it's the pain and hurt and torture she's seen me go through, it's the impact on our family, it tears her up inside knowing she was the cause of all this pain and that's why she KNOWS she won't do this to me again because it's not about her and her issues. It's about me and the kids. And then she said that while she's working on changing herself in IC, we need to work together if we want to address the issues that we had in our marriage, and the things that helped her be the type of person who would betray her husband. And she begged for my help. Even if we end up in divorce, she asked me to help her change herself, and become a better person.

So I said that it will take me time before I feel I can delve into that, but in general, yes. I'll be there for her. But I also said that complete and total honesty is the key - and so I asked her if she gave any more thought to the poly questions and how significant it would be if she failed. Is there anything else she wanted to tell me? She said she's been thinking it through and there really isn't any more that I don't already know. She said she is terrified of failing but she doesn't see why she would. So I gave her a vague preview of my questions - not in detail, but generally what I want to know. She said that she answered everything I asked her truthfully about her relationships with POS, is sick to her stomach when she thinks about what she did with POS and admitted to doing with POS and is so so sorry that I ever had to hear that coming out of her mouth. She said again that she never planned on leaving me and never considered it. I asked her if she thinks one day she might have had my brother not seen her and I had not confronted her. She thought about that for a while and said that if she's 100% honest with herself and me, while she'd like to think she wouldn't have, and at the time she never thought about the future and leaving me was not in her thoughts at all, but she recognizes that she was so screwed up and she was into her relationship with him, that it could have spiraled to the point where yes, that might have been a possibility. Of course that led to a whole bunch of "I'm sorry's" and crying. I asked her how much did the fact that POS was married and had 2 other affairs impact her in terms of ending it with him? She said that it impacted her more from the standpoint that he was using her and her fairytale relationship with him was just that - a fairytale and she felt dirty and disgusting and had a feeling of tremendous self-loathing, but it was seeing me in so much pain and throwing a bucket of ice cold water on her secret life that did it. And the harsh light forced her to make an immediate choice - not that I asked, but it was obvious as soon as I confronted her - and it was never a choice for her. It wasn't an "AND" anymore, it became an "either / or" and there was no way he would win then.

She then said she wants to give me as much time as I need or want and will do anything I ask of her. She does think it would be good for us to try and spend time together and she came up with the same idea someone here did who recently posted - to not talk but go do something - the movies, bike riding, etc. Just spend time in close proximity. She thought that might help. I agreed to that.

I told her that I'd like to start MC in a while but want to spend more time working through things in IC and want to see what the results of the poly were. She agreed.

And then she said that she can't even imagine how difficult this must be for me and she knows there's really nothing she can do to really make this up to me, but be the best person and wife and mother she can possibly be. But regardless, she just wanted to let me know how grateful and appreciative she is to me that I'm willing to try and be there for her and while I may not care how she feels about what I'm doing she at least wanted me to know that she is, and she wants to reciprocate when I'm ready and be there for me in every way possible.

We left it at that. Most exhausting brunch ever.

*sigh*

How was the food?

HOP - First, thanks for your earlier post. Another one for my folder of SI printouts.

Didn't really eat. Coffee was good. Ordered a triple omelette of something with a bagel - brought most of it home for the kids. Didn't really have an appetite.

Walloped, next time you go out, go to a movie first and then talk about it, or go bowling, do something that talking is not needed and afterward you can talk about the activity.

Second, don't put much emphasis on what she says about her feelings, how she felt, what she thought about. Her facts, what she did, when, where, that's factual and you can get that from her. But if you are asking for questions about her mind process, you are asking the blind how to see.

Facts are she could have gone with other guy, she could have left you, she didn't. She always was more selfish than you, it's just that you were BOTH sacrificing for your kids, but push come to shove I bet you were the one sacrificing, if she was happy and the kids were happy, then you were happy. Deep down there, which you never really noticed, was that she was always more the taker, you more the giver, not a wide gap, but she was selfish enough to do this. She didn't think any more about this than that she would never get caught and she was excited in a way that she hadn't felt for a long, long time, in a way that you get in a new love, after being in a love that was mature and more calmed and steady.

What if other man didn't lie, didn't do this or that, you will never know. Our whole life is a bunch of what ifs, what if the truck ran you over when you were 10 years old, what if your parents moved when you were 15 years old. Maybe you have to think about these crannies and crevices and figure this out for yourself, but I've been down that road already.

Next time, do an activity, go to a play, a movie, bowling, then go get a bite to eat. Go to eat for a place where you don't have to be there long, a place where it's a step above fast food, I'm thinking like a Panera or Chipotle or Shake Shack or something along those lines. Go quick after eating, go home, and leave it on a high note, end while it's still going well, the longer you sit and talk, the longer you will find your way back to "WHY DID YOU DO THIS TO ME?"

Your brunch conversation mirrors what my husband has shared with me. The fact that he never considered leaving me (cake eating), the bucket of ice water bringing him into the correct (albeit too late) perspective.

I have no doubt that people can have a complete shift in their perspective. That they went completely off course in their life, pursuing something that might fill a void. That they can become incapable of their past behaviors moving forward.

But, again, where does that leave us?

With a gaping hole in our otherwise very happy and satisfying marriage.

Time, you need time to absorb, assess, decide if you can live with a black episode in your marriage, and all of the history it brings with it.

Baby steps. Don't try to take big steps yet.

Walloped I have a question, you wrote your wife said this during your brunch:

"And then she said that while she's working on changing herself in IC, we need to work together if we want to address the issues that we had in our marriage, and the things that helped her be the type of person who would betray her husband."

Does she think the issues in your marriage partly lead her to cheat? What "things" in your marriage could have lead her to have a LTA? I'm not buying it was your marriage at all but something broken inside of her.

I am glad she acknowledges that had the affair gone on awhile there was a real possibility she could have left - and her term "do screwed up" - I interpret to mean I was "s o in love". I also have my doubts that she would not have eventually left if the OM was not a scoundrel, offered her his undying love and offered to wait for her.

BTW the brunch sounds not only exhausting but frustrating.

I am glad you verbalized your feelings to her she has to hear and continue to hear that you are struggling. She needs to realize she will NEVER be able to fully repair this - EVER. She has also permanently altered your daughters views on marriage and relationships as well - since they are old enough to understand whats going on. From my experience with several kids of cheating parents - the aftershocks when it comes to their own relationships will be felt for years because this affair will effect your whole family for the rest of your lives.