SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

yah, if I believe that my pride is more important than my relationship to my spouse, my children, my family, my friends... yep, I end up all the time alone with my pride.

so you really sure you want to put pride that high up on the pedastal? Really? Because you are telling your family that you prefer to be alone with your pride and to have the freedom to chase tail because you were hurt.

Merida

Why is the BS held to a much higher standard than the WS? Is it because the WS is “bad” by definition so you don’t expect much of them? Is it because all the BS has to do is eat a $hit sandwich and everything can remain the same for friends and family as if nothing ever happened? Is it because if the BS refuses such an easy fix then the BS is the one that caused all the trouble?

Which is more trivial in the big picture of things? Pride or the ego strokes of an affair?

Because you are telling your family that you prefer to be alone with your pride

What was his wife telling her husband and family?

[This message edited by Graywolf at 2:24 PM, August 19th (Friday)]

Waited,

I have followed your posts and have thought about you living in the house the A took place in. This must been a living hell every day. To wake up in the house that your WW and the OM took pleasure in behind your back. That your WW had such joy in working with the OM. Remembering how excited your WW was to tell you all the things her and the OM discussed regarding the remodel, seeing all the work he had done and knowing how happy she was during this time must be tough to take. I had to move away from the area my EWW and BFF A took place. I had to break contact with most former friends and start a new life altogether. In my case this has been amazing. A year ago I could not think it would be possible to be as happy as I am today. I wish you the best.

The one stumbling block is seeing other people. She does not want that, but I do. I do not consider this an RA, or open marriage as we are in my mind separated. How will I know if she is the one still if I don't get to experience other relationships. If this is a deal breaker for her I get it and proceed directly to divorce. I know that protocol here is for spouses to be divorced before other relationships are started, but she is the one who is holding off on going to the final step.

There is no guide for doing this right.

You are correct. There is nothing written in stone on how to handle situations like you have been in.

I can't believe you've been living in the house! No wonder you haven't been able to get past it. I won't even get in my WH's car and from what I understand the COW was only in it once! I want to sell my house just because of the memories of dday, she was never even here.

Only you can decide what you want to do. It sounds like there has been really bad communication between the two of you over the past few years. Have you considered marriage counseling? Maybe one last attempt before throwing in the towel?

Cheating was always a deal breaker for me too - especially an affair. I'm shocked at myself for even attempting reconciliation. I feel the same way as you about pride and my own moral code. I love my stupid WH so damn much though and I love my family and I'm giving it a shot. Just wanted to throw that out there to you so you know you're not alone with your pride.

Wanted to respond to few things here. It really doesn't bother me that she is reading here. It also doesn't bother me that she didn't tell me. She has been reading here off and on for a few years. I have enough anger in me I don't need to add anymore. She came on here to help herself originally and she sctually should get some credits for that. She has been reading my stuff after stumbling on it and has been doing so for about a month. Of course she went back to my beginning.

Someone said our openness is the best it has ever been. That is not the case. We were fine pre A although we were both wrapped up in life and with two girls leaving the nest.

Being in the house does suck. At least he was the electrician so in physical terms most of his territory is wall sockets and high hats. He was gone before most of the big things went in

On DDay after the PI busted them I had a trip pre planned. I called right before I left and went dark and told her that IF I came home the bed in the spare bedroom and ours better be gone. On the phone at that point I was getting the nothing happened, it's a misunderstanding yada yada. But she knew I meant business and she deep down knew she was busted.

I came home and the mattress and bedding in both rooms were changed. But we had this huge custom made leather headboard that was still there. I said WTF is this still doing here. She had already confessed in her emails to me but was still swearing that the bedroom was clean. She said we shouldn't have to replace it as nothing happened here ,and it goes so well and will be hard to replace. I went down and got my tool that I used to cut branches and went Frday the 13th on the headboard and asked how does it go now? Remember this was just days after. The headboard was there for about a week before she could arrange to get it out of there. We still just have a box spring and mattress which doesn't look right 5 years later

She offered to move but I felt why should I have to get kicked out of a house I loved for her stupidity. Again, probably my pride rearing its head. But you are all correct. It does suck that it is a trigger for me.

I was gone all day and she wanted to talk about the retroville, but I really don't want to deal with it. Kind of a lack of motivation. At this point I just plain don't want to work on any relationship. I just want to have a little fun (and I don't mean just sex). A dinner with a women who hasn't hurt me would be a great start. This relationship is like carrying a knapsack of rocks on my back. I am just tired.

Does anyone understand that. Again, thanks for the replies. I do read and appreciate all of them even if I can't respond

If it sounds like I am trying to change your mind about divorce, I am not. It sounds like you have your mind made up and I can understand that. What I am suggesting you do is to give it one last chance. I can understand how you feel it is pointless as your heart isn't in it. I want to stress that is how the man in leadership (at our Retrouvaille weekend) felt when he went to his Retrouvaille weekend with his soon to be XW. For whatever reason, he decided he would go, but his mind was made up that they would be signing the final papers of their divorce that week.

Many regret getting divorced. Stats in some studies show that a full 50% regret getting divorced. These were the Top Ten Reasons they regretted it:

TOP TEN REASONS FOR REGRETTING A DIVORCE

1. Missing an ex-partner

2. Feeling like a failure

3. Still being in love with an ex-partner

4. Realising they were being unreasonable

5. Feeling lonely

6. Discovering the grass isn't always greener

7. An ex-partner finding someone new

8. Realising they are not better off on their own.

9. Damaging the relationship with their children

10. Children's lives being affected

I don't feel you owe your FWW another chance. I feel you owe yourself, your children, and your family another chance. A real chance. I have a feeling you never 100% committed to reconciliation. You probably always had one foot out of the door. Again, understandable. I am saying you owe yourself a real chance at real reconciliation because of so many reasons, the Top Ten list naming most of them.

OTOH, you can separate, you can divorce. Studies have shown that those who divorce and have regrets oftentimes attempt reconciliation after a divorce. I think it was 21% that remarry (of the 50% that have regrets, not all regret). The thing is, your wife could find someone in the meantime when you finally realize that you do truly love your FWW and you are willing to go through the tough work of really being authentic with each other and healing your marriage.

We have friends that remarried after the WH had a LTA, kept them both (OW and BW) as back up plans until BW divorced him. He lived with OW for a year or so before they split up. He started dating his XBW soon after. Coincidently, the WH split with the OW when he found out his XBW was dating his cousin. Anyway, they are happily remarried.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 8:34 PM, August 19th (Friday)]

This led to my decision to separate and divorce. She also was crying about how all of these other men can forgive, and I cannot. How can I say on this site that she has been a model spouse since DDay and not give her another chance?

Stop beating yourself up. Sleeping next to someone who betrayed you isn't comfortable for some people - even if the betrayer is really sorry and has no intentions of doing it again.

I see a lot of infidelity and divorce in my line of work. Between those direct experiences and reading these forums for years I have yet to see a BS who regretted choosing to divorce their WS. Pop on down to the divorce subforum and feel free to ask how many would go back given the option. Most will tell you that within a year or two their primary regret was not filing sooner.

waitedwaytoolong,

Has she ever posted anything in SI？

Maybe she did and dont want you to read it.

Good luck

It is unfortunate that there is no magic crystal ball to tell each of us what the right course of action is. I will offer my observations and experience for what they are worth.

I have read all of your postings. I sense, or maybe feel, a fairly consistent undercurrent in each of them. What I sense is that there is a part of you that still loves your wife. And a part of you that, if you are truly honest with yourself, wants to remain married to her. At the same time there is that other part of you. The part that still, after 5 years, can't believe she did what she did. The part that still holds a lot of anger and pain. The part that cries out for justice and whispers to you that you are stupid if you let her "get away with it" (maybe that's the pride you speak of).

I sense that those two parts of you constantly battle each other for supremacy; for victory. And that is why you feel so tired; defeated in a way. You just want the battle to quit. One side to win.

I suspect most of us have all felt that way to one extent or another. Some grow exhausted much more quickly than 5 years and throw in the towel one direction or the other. Some struggle most of their lives and never make a conscious decision (which becomes a decision to stay by default)

Staying by default is just ongoing misery so it is good that you want to make a decision. It appears to me, though, that you don't truly know what you want it to be.

In my past I experienced the internal battle. Mine was when young kids were still at home. They trumped the inner voice urging that I obtain justice by dumping her. You don't have that to factor in which I am sure gives the "justice" voice more power.

I understand your exhaustion and I do think you need a decision of some sort to move ahead. What I suggest it that it doesn't have to yet be an "all or nothing" decision. It doesn't yet have to be "commit to R" or "commit to D".

Consider separating (and not in house; a true physical separation) for somewhere in the 3 to 6 month range. The point being to see if there are still feelings there sufficient to convince each of you to give it another honest try. Or not.

And I suggest that if you do that you each commit to No Dating during that time. You need to determine how much, or how little, you miss her presence. Whether there is, or is not, still a feeling of need for her. You would not be able to figure that out if you are dating. The mental, brain chemical, thrill, or whatever ther proper term is, brought on by being with someone new would block any honest evaluation of your feelings toward your W. By the end of the separation period you should have a clear enough evaluation of where you brain and heart are to feel more confident of the D or R decision rather than the I'm so exhausted I have to do something so I guess I will choose option 2 status that you seem to be in now.

I will tell you my truth as I sit here at midnight on a Friday typing this. I have felt that exhaustion. More than once. And I have heard those inner voices screaming at me that I really am only cared about because of the lifestyle I provide and that I should still get justice and etc etc. And I know you wonder if she is still with you for lifestyle only; so her life isn't blown up.

I will just offer these thoughts. Our wives have been liars. Very good at it too. But even good liars can't deceive forever. I know by now that my W does love me. It sounds like yours does love you. And I think you know that. So what you have to find out is whether you still care about her and need her enough to start working towards letting the past go enough (no, it will never just go away entirely) that a true R can occur.

It took time for me to reach that conclusion. And while I reached it without a separation, recent times have given me clarity that it was a correct decision. Last summer and this summer my W has lived in a vacation house we bought on the west coast ( home base is the Midwest) and I go there a little each month as my work schedule permits. Those weeks of separation at a time have shown me that there is still love and need. On both of our parts.

And thus my suggestion that a physical separation for a few months should give you the clarity you need to know, for sure, which way to go.

Whatever you do, I hope you find peace.

Your wife's affair was particularly tough to overcome. The affair itself, she gave you sloppy seconds in your own house and she was happy as a lark while she was doing it. She sat directly with you and the other man, letting you praise the other man of what a great job he is doing, all the while they were both stabbing you in the back. You were paying the other man to have sex with your wife in your house and in your bed. Your wife was paying. The renovations are what she really wanted.

The cheating was so brutal, so reprehensible, that finally a person who doesn't know you or particularly care about you, came forward to give you the truth. You hired a private investigator, you confronted your wife, and she still lied.

You also played a part in not being able to get over it. Your part was that you did nothing wrong. You were a good husband and a good father. You never neglected your wife. You weren't addicted to playing video games, you weren't ignoring your wife to go out and leave your wife alone, you were not abusive to your wife, you were providing her a good life and practically everything you did was for her and your family. That is a tough situation to reconcile from. That I can understand.

If you had been a bit more of a piece of shit, if you had ignored your wife, been an alcoholic, had a gambling problem, spent all your free time playing video games, etc., then you might feel like, well, you've made mistakes and she made mistakes. The fact that you were so into her, and I can't remember, but on top of the re-modeling which as a dream of hers, you also were taking her for an anniversary trip, too, and her knowing all of this, she cheated in your house and, in a sense, let your wife let you become "the cliche" of old dopey husband can't notice his wife is shtumping him right in front of his nose and everyone knows about it but him.

So I think your being a kind of a model husband makes it more difficult to swallow.

I understand. I really wish you could have reconciled, but I understand.

This website is not necessarily representative of the AFTERMATH of affairs in general. People who post on infidelity forums generally are trying to save their marriages. I know from my life experience that after an affair, many betrayed spouses divorce immediately and never give staying together much of a thought. Cheating is a dealbreaker and they don't find a forum "how to get over it." Rather, they just file for divorce and move forward. You rarely see that on a website like this because people like that don't look for answers, they know their own answer already.

WWTL

Most men do not reconcile and forgive or respectively they forgive but do not reconcile only that they do not come to SI or any other online infidelity sites. In that sense there is a bias between reality and the online world. Now, that's not a judgement between the two types of men. Those men are different. Most men men do not reconcile and that's the norm. It's you that are part of the norm not otherwise. And you blaming yourself is unhealthy. Our stories have many similarities in how we perceive affairs. And also in the way we dealt with it. There are also striking differences. In my case it was the only exception to the rule (of affair as an immediate deal breaker). Besides of this every other type of affair would mean an immediate divorce. No matter how remorseful she would have been. She could have become mother Theresa, still irrelevant. You have no moral obligations or any other to someone who has betrayed you. Your response is completely healthy as maybe those of who reconcile if done properly. May you find peace and happiness as soon as possible again. It deepends solely on you and the path you take afterwards. Again, if done properly you will not regret anything and everyone will be just fine including your kids, yourself and your ex

Edited to add: you can find my story in the profile. It may help you.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 2:32 AM, August 20th (Saturday)]

Why is the BS held to a much higher standard than the WS?

When it comes down to action, it's not a matter of some external 'higher standard.' Rather, it's a matter of what will work best for the individual.

Avoiding actions that people report regretting after they so them is a good guide. For example, an RA sounds reasonable - until one reads about the pain that madhatters experience after conducting the RA.

Most men do not reconcile and forgive or respectively they forgive but do not reconcile only that they do not come to SI or any other online infidelity sites.

The best data we have - which isn't very good on a random, repeatable sample basis - indicates that most couples stay together. I haven't seen data on gender, but you're making a guess here.

There are only 55,000 members here. Of course the vast majority of people impacted by infidelity doon't come here.

Does anyone understand that. Again, thanks for the replies. I do read and appreciate all of them even if I can't respond

I absolutely understand it.

It's not like you're jumping the gun only a few weeks from D-Day. It's been 5 years. By 5 years, you KNOW whether you're good or not with something.

I think there's pride, and then there's stubborn pride. I don't get the sense that you're just being stubborn. There's absolutely nothing wrong with having a healthy sense of pride in yourself and how you choose to live your life and what you choose to accept and what you choose NOT to accept. You have to like who you see in the mirror everyday, and if you feel you're compromising the core of who you really are, then you owe it to yourself to live your life authentically.

I agree with Graywolf that the BS shouldn't have to overlook their own values or belief system just to hold to some impossibly high standard at all costs.

Admittedly, I chose ultimately not to stay with the cheaters I've been involved with. I tried to stay and work things out, but the time came when I chose not to do that anymore, and no convincing by anyone was going to change how I felt.

So yes, waitedwaytoolong, I DO understand. Only too well.

It's your journey to take.

The best data we have - which isn't very good on a random, repeatable sample basis - indicates that most couples stay together. I haven't seen data on gender, but you're making a guess here.

This is not a guess but a fact proven by research. If not immediately most of those marriages end after two or three years. By the way, you are correct that most couples stay - initially! So, it's not a contradiction to my statements above. Most men might stay initially but once the reality sinks in them they leave. I can't post the link but will find later the research and will post its title so one can google it. So, it's not a guess but I do guess that eventually denying the research might be a projection

[This message edited by MrSpock at 11:54 AM, August 20th (Saturday)]

This is not a guess but a fact proven by research. If not immediately most of those marriages end after two or three years. So, most men might stay initially but once the reality sinks in them they leave. I can't post the link but will find later the research and will post its title so one can google it. So, it's not a guess but I do guess that denying research might be a projection

I wouldn't call it research , it's just data gathering and filling forms. Social "sciences" are not actual science (like say physics or molecular biology), at least not yet , they are still very far from it . These are just surveys , they tell you that "in the sample we took , there was this and there was that + here are some of our opinions" , they're not trying to understand or explain the phenomena they're studying and test and see if those explanations conform to reality...they just gather data , often times it's just anecdotal and quite unclear (therefore useless) data , and then they start making flamboyant claims based on ideology and personal bias.

[This message edited by ivehadit01 at 12:03 PM, August 20th (Saturday)]

I would have hoped your WW would find some help here. She needs to realize that infidelity is an incredible hit to the BS. Some reconcile, some don't. She should get IC help to deal with what she did and the consequences. The adultery was not your fault.

Everyone has to decide if it is a deal breaker or not. The WS can be 100% remorseful, do everything they can, etc. Sometimes the hurt is just too deep for the BS to recover from. That is the choice the BS has to make. SI can help the BS think it through but it is still up to the individual.

You've wasted 5 years. Why do more time in purgatory?

I don't have a dog in this "fight". I believe that waitedwaytoolong will make the decision he wants to make. The one he feels is right for him. The natural consequence for a WS is the BS divorcing them.

I just don't understand all those that are so urgent in saying "divorce, divorce". Yes, it has been 5 years, so why would it matter if he puts in a trip to Retrouvaille? These are lives, these are families. If his BW was unremorseful, I would be there chanting "divorce, divorce", too. However, he does have a remorseful FWW. I feel he has nothing to lose by giving it one honest last shot before pulling the trigger.

ETA: Once again the FWS is damned if they do, damned if they don't. Mrs.waitedwaytoolong, I give you props for seeking out help and finding SI. Even if you didn't become a member you read here, you learned here. As far as letting waitedwaytoolong know about SI, I can understand why you didn't. This thread is an indication why so many WS's are fearful of their spouse's reading/joining SI.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 12:16 PM, August 20th (Saturday)]

I wouldn't call it research , it's just data gathering and filling forms. Social "sciences" are not actual science (like say physics or molecular biology), at least not yet , they are still very far from it . These are just surveys , they tell you that "in the sample we took , there was this and there was that + here are some of our opinions" , they're not trying to understand or explain the phenomena they're studying and test and see if those explanations conform to reality...they just gather data , often times it's just anecdotal and quite unclear (therefore useless) data , and then they start making flamboyant claims based on ideology and personal bias.

That can be said the other way around as well. The fact that social sciences are not true sciences is a well known fact but again it is much worse the other way around because it is more based on those sciences than my approach. Anyway, it's the most reliable method we have and if we don't accept it then there's no discussion whatsoever. However, what I was pointing to was more than just a survey. And surveys are also based on scientific methods. Not accepting this is denying any type of statistics which also use scientific methods even if they are not "true sciences". Again, I suggest we wait until I post the research before making those generalizations. Those methods are the best frame we have for discussions and there are no others. And on the side note, science is also not an absolute truth. This is why a theory is valid until it's proven wrong and there is a new theory that replaces it. With the same logic of course we wouldn't be able to accept anything and there is no discussion whatsoever, no matter what we discuss.

[This message edited by MrSpock at 12:38 PM, August 20th (Saturday)]

SisterMilkshake,

I agree with you that it doesn't seem like too much to ask him to go to Retrouvaille after 5 years of trying. But, WWTL has made it clear that after 5 unsuccessful years, he doesn't have the energy left. It seems that asking for one more chance is too much for him and he is just done. Besides, this isn't a second chance. If you read his story, this would be like chance five or six. WWTL has known this has been a dealbreaker for years and has been talked back into staying in the M after trying to leave multiple times. He says this is the best choice for him and he means it.

IIRC, the only counseling they got was MC and the MC wanted WWTL to accept fault in the A. A lot of posters have assumed that his WW is the beacon of remorsefulness but I don't really believe that. How when she didn't get IC? Why did she not seek out IC/a good MC if she read here for years when that is standard advice for R? Did she agree with the MC that WWTL was partly to blame for her A? She may really not want a D but I have a hard time seeing how she has done the work a WS needs to do beyond scratching the surface and I think that comes out in some of the choices she has made more recently that have gone against WWTL's wishes or triggered him. I have a much harder time seeing posters blame WWTL for the M ending by saying he didn't do enough. I don't think it's fair to say the BS needs to step up and do the bulk of healing moving forward. In fact, SI generally suggests the opposite and that it's okay to not be 100% into R at first and to wait and see what the WS does to move healing along. Sure, there were things WWTL could have done differently and there may have been a different outcome today if he did but is the fault really on his shoulders for not doing those things? Is it really his responsibility to take sole control of R like that and goad his WW into doing the work that will help him heal in the long run? It's a sad situation but hardly just his fault.

I think those are the reasons why some posters are pushing him to go along with the D.