SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Thanks OldWounds. Yes, I do not want to play detective. I have really focused on that, and WW has indeed told me virtually everything instead of having me find out through snooping or the grapevine.

We do have an MC also, and meet with her Monday. Ours is pretty good, but is sometime too gentle... sometimes I think our counselors are treating her with kid gloves because they know she is disordered and an addict, and apparently hammering them those types of people with shame is counterproductive. Our MC does call her out, but very gently, and also focuses on me highlighting things she is doing RIGHT. So.

Anyway, I talked with WW briefly and it sounds like her IC hit her pretty hard, explicitly calling this a relapse. Not a major one, and something that would barely blip on the radar for non-addicts, but something that was a huge risk for her. Said she has to go look at her boundaries and what allowed this to happen, and just generally reminded her that she has to be VERY careful, especially because she is charismatic and people will always be attracted to her. Said she can never let her guard down.

After WW describing my reaction, her IC also said that I reacted with classic PTSD-type reactions (true) which WW said was eye opening. We only talked for a second before her next appointment (don't worry, it's an appointment with my mother about selling her house. It's legit!). So I'm sure we'll discuss it more later. I feel a bit better about her IC not sugarcoating this mess, at least. Still damn exhausted though.

I am glad you were not offended. My response was a bit heavy handed.

I still believe however that this was far more than a small transgression. The fact remains she shared really private personal things with this guy. She also gave out really bad signals. In any other situation if she didn't have a history of cheating it would be bad. The fact that she has slept with other men amplifies this by a 1000. I know people aren't perfect, and changing habits is hard, but this was not a little slip up.

You say you are angry, but I am just not feeling it. it feels like you have given her a pass on this. Have you set up any boundaries with consequences in case this happens again? I hope so.

Yep.

I've heard of men being sex addicts- everybody has. But let's be real, a woman identifying as a sex addict to physically available guy would be a turn-on.

Can you imagine?! She's so freaky!

It's not going to get the same kind of reaction as a male SA, or Alcoholic, or anything. It's sexist, YES. But that conversation likely didn't end with "I just like sex". It likely ended with some mutual giggling, affirmations, head nodding. And now that window into your life was opened.

I am encouraged by the fact that she wrote that text/message to him after. That she opened up to you about this. While the initial conversation is fucked, so long as you are still in R and wanting R keep the positives in mind-

1. She didn't sleep with him. I know I know, but it's true? THIS TIME, it was just verbal, and alcohol induced. Inappropriate yes, but not infidelity.

2. She was honest about it after, instead of making you pry it out of her or discover it. She knew she made a mistake and exposed it on her own. She knew you'd be upset but she acted with courage.

3. She went to her IC and was open with her IC about it.

4. She blocked the opportunity to further this with the potential AP. She did it in front of you.

I would be highly encouraged by all of this... on top of being exhausted.

This is not a snarky question. How is a woman a sex addict?

Is it orgasm a female sex addict is seeking? I don't understand. It takes certain friction for women to orgasm. Certain body parts line up differently.

Does this mean she is open to everything sexual. Surely she has some limits?

And then as a man....do you think wow a sex addict...the STDs? Or do you think wow, the easy lay?

Is it just the chase? Does she truly like sex? Could your brain be reframed to enjoy sex in a making love situation.

How can you and she have a good sex life if she is an addict? Alcoholics can't drink. So why is the term addict used?

@WWTL--my IC often says I don't seem angry either. I think I just keep it inside pretty well. Actually way too much. Until it boils over. But yeah, if I don't seem like I'm insanely angry at this it's because I've probably become kind of numb to the atrocious things WW has put me through, and this ranks low on the list in terms of severity... and in some ways, I'm still coasting through the Plain of Lethal Flatness. To be honest a small part of me is hoping she'll cheat again which would be a 100% certain nail in the coffin for our M. I don't REALLY want that, but it would make my decision easier... I have come to a place where I'm ok with D. I just really don't want to.

As far as consequences, I don't know. I didn't explicitly lay any out. A few months ago I gave her a list of boundaries, some were dealbreakers and some were "might lead to divorce." This was a "might" one, and clearly I'm not D-ing yet...

@Tess, you're right there are a bunch of positives from this. There was no infidelity. She was honest and did not have to tell me. She attempted to make it right and let me dictate how. Those are all good things.

@IWMG, that is a good question. She's actually a "love addict" but both of our ICs have said there's little difference between sex addiction and love addiction. That even for men who are SAs, it's usually not the sex but some deep emotional void connected to the sex that is the issue. She has a void within her that normal, healthy love will not fill, and her addiction is her desperately trying to get men to love her to fill that void. No matter how many men love her, the void will never be satisfied. So I guess you could say WW is addicted to the adrenaline high of someone new, of getting attention, of being desired. Addicted to fantasy. That quickly leads to sex, which is just the byproduct of feeding the addiction, and then she crashes when she realizes the new guy STILL leaves her feeling unloved and empty. Then pile some shame on top.

Is it a "true" addiction? I don't know. I hate the term. There are all kinds of chemical reactions that are similar to the chemical reactions of those addicted to substances though. You could say it's just an excuse for shitty behavior. That's what I used to think. And that's fine. Or call it an addiction to ego kibbles. She spent a decade as a lead singer, being showered with ego kibbles that helped distort her view of what love and affection really are. But the addiction was there before that, anyway... FOO and personality disorder issues. Anyway, I'll shut up now. I've just been finding out a LOT of stuff about this over the past 9 months.

Twice wounded question(s) for you.

Do you derive your own validation from being the one to rescue her from herself ?

Do you help her avoid the consequences of her behavior and on some level derive your own worth from that ?

It is more like she screws up, you and she know that you hold a position of power ? During her "amends" cycle she is everything you want her to be ?

Rinse. Repeat ?

I never believed it myself before, but enabling someones behavior is a real thing. Have you discussed with your IC ?

I could be wrong, but I see a pattern all too common in relationships marred by addiction.

Are there any addiction issues with yourself or in your FOO ?

I know this is heavy stuff. I also think it is something worth exploring.

I'd ask IC at the next appointment. It is hard to see these things unless you really, really look at them. To you or your wife you might dismiss them because they were/are normal.

I'm hoping one day you'll finally know when you've had enough of this endurance test. You must be awfully tired.

it makes me feel like I'm just blowing it way out of proportion.

This is the insidious form of denial - it is denying how badly you & your marriage have been damaged. From this you can find all sorts of reasons to let her off the hook so you might blame yourself or bend over backwards to rationalize her behavior.

She's shown plenty of remorse along the way, but the last few weeks I get the impression she's just "tired" of being remorseful and wants to go back to the way our lives used to be.

A truly remorseful person never gets "tired" of it - it's a part of who they are once they honestly accept the wrong they have done. Whenever they think about it or the subject comes up they feel remorseful for their behavior. Faking it is what gets tiresome.

Lots of WS's are sorry they hurt BS and that the whole ugly mess ever happened. However they can't feel remorse because they are not capable of the empathy required for remorse.

Do you derive your own validation from being the one to rescue her from herself ?

Do you help her avoid the consequences of her behavior and on some level derive your own worth from that ?

It is more like she screws up, you and she know that you hold a position of power ? During her "amends" cycle she is everything you want her to be ?

Rinse. Repeat ?

I never believed it myself before, but enabling someones behavior is a real thing. Have you discussed with your IC ?

I could be wrong, but I see a pattern all too common in relationships marred by addiction.

Are there any addiction issues with yourself or in your FOO ?

I know this is heavy stuff. I also think it is something worth exploring.

This is really heavy stuff. I have been reading about the Karpman triangle lately... the victim/rescuer/persecutor triangle. She is the victim, I am the rescuer. I know this. I have known for a while, and have been trying to really break away from that. Our marriage has the victim/rescuer relationship deeply ingrained in it, since her early days ending up in the ER with violent panic attacks and me soothing her... I worked hard to NOT be an enabler in that way anymore, but now maybe I am enabling this addiction that had been under the surface. I need to think on this.

I don't have any addiction issues, but my father was an alcoholic. I do struggle with some codependency issues. I need to talk more with my IC about this stuff.

@NoMercy your comment makes me sad. I hope I find my limit also. I have been a resilient guy my entire life. On my own at 16, distant FOO, put myself through college, proud of not needing any support from anyone. But this is wearing me down. I have been through hell and back, more than once. I deserve happiness, and sometimes I'm not sure I know what happiness is anymore.

@ISurvived, you are right. She is sorry, but her getting "tired" is very concerning to me. We all have a right to get tired--she has an infant, an intense job, and has been doing IC, MC, and a 12 step program. It's a lot. And it's confusing and emotional. But... is she just going through the motions? Is there true remorse? I do wonder if she has the empathy to feel it right now, or if she understands what true empathy is. I don't want to scuttle the entire R when she is working this hard. But I do need more time to see if she's displaying true remorse or something else.

Thank you for taking the time to explain. I actually have an Aunt like this. She is on her 8th husband. So many engagements. My mother always said she likes the chase. Not the actually long term relationship and sex.

What your wife sexually abused as a child? I did some reading on the subject after I posted.

I couldn't wade through all your are going through. If she is incapable of a healthy relationship how do you ever get to grow as a man?

I have been so lucky to see some beautiful relationships. Although in your case of having a daughter. I do not think I could divorce and allow the parade of men in and out of my daughter's life. Predators would flock to your wife.

You truly do not have a good path in front of you. Do you want other children?

Are you seeking an actual romantic partnership with your wife? Would you be content with a business marriage while you raised your child?

The other men factor frightens me for your daughter.

Editing because I have a thought. What happens as your daughter gets older, matures, and is beautiful. What will your wife's reaction be. This is something I would ask a therapist. Will she be jealous of your daughter's budding womanhood? I have seen situations like this. It's a very weird dynamic.

I have also seen the daughter completely repress all maturing womanhood because the mother needs so much male attention. (My niece and SIL) and my niece and my Sister (who had affairs).

I know it seems as though you have years and years before you get to puberty for your daughter....it will be here quickly!

Ask your wives therapIst about what happens with a mother of this dynamic.

[This message edited by Iwantmyglasses at 7:40 PM, October 6th (Friday)]

The worse thing you can do with an addict is enable them. You need to research this.

For your wife, it is not not just boundaries. She needs to make sure she is not in these types of situations.

Forgive typos--responding on my phone. I can't be on the forum much on weekends.

Iwmg: You're welcome. It's complex and difficult to get to the bottom of this... I feel sorry for your aunt at 8 marriages. Yikes.

My wife has said she doesn't think, or doesn't remember, being sexually abused as a child. But I think she was. Her parents were horribly unstable, and as a child they would bring home men they found on the street to feed and clothe them for a night or more, sometimes weeks at a time. She admits some of them probably did things to her. I would be surprised if they didn't. She and her sister were cute young girls, and homeless men sleeping on their couch..... come on.

Anyway, yes, I have been very concerned about DD if I leave. I lose control over what weirdo predators WW would bring into the house. I know she doesnt want to be her parents and dearly loves DD............ but I'm still concerned her atrocious behavior could come home to roost in ways that would make me unable to forgive myself. She says she'd stay in treatment even if I leave, but I would have no way to guarantee that.

It's funny ou mention what happens when DD gets older....... I'm not sure WW will be upset by that, but maybe. We DO have a cute DD now and it's likely she'll be a looker when she's older. WW is proud of that, but who knows what happens later. I live in the PNW and actually had classes with Amanda Knox, if anyone remembers her... her mother was a teacher at my elementary school. Apparently they had weird mother/daughter issues with jealousy similar to what you describe.

Anyway. MC tomorrow, will update more later. Including some thoughts on enabling..

I also don't know how I wade through this hell. I'm a resilient guy, to my own detriment.

Twice- No one said this shit is easy. Sometimes strength isn't about doing the right thing all of the time either.

Sometimes the real strength is shown by trying to do it right again.

That goes for both you and your W. Go to IC man. The things we have blindspots for in our past are usually the things that need to change the most.

It hurts like hell to wade into that territory and anyone and I do mean anyone's first reaction is going to stop going to that place.

By sitting with it you can and will remove the unseen ways it has been driving your life. On the other side you feel a sense of confidence and freedom you've never felt before.

It feels pretty good most days.

Coming from the perspective of being married to a WW/SA and having been through multiple DDays...

Whether she is called a SA, love addict, attention addict or whatever, things can go one of two ways -- she can leverage the term/diagnosis to better understand herself and dive into the process of change or she can use the term as an excuse. Her actions and attitude will give you insight into which path she is choosing. In addition, even if she is pursuing understanding the character gap she has within, where it came from and how to grow/change/heal, it typically is a rocky, difficult path.

For yourself, awareness of the situation you are in along with the dynamics involved is a great first step in your own healing and growing stronger. I found "The Human Magnet Syndrome", "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and "Getting the Love You Want" all to be insightful and helpful in broadening my view on the underlying elements that I was tied up in. Ultimately, the books, some work with IC, time and self-reflection helped me see that I was worthy of being treated with love and respect and that accepting anything less was toxic to me.

To your original topic - telling a guy she is a SA (ESPECIALLY one who is known to pursue women and has made clear his intentions with her) is intentionally fishing for more of the addictive attention she has pursued in the past. If she really wants to get better, that she did this should horrify her and she should throw herself even more into IC/CSAT. For you, while what she did isn't a full affair, it is continuing her streak of treating you with a lack of love and respect and, as a result, should be yet another sign that shows you she isn't capable of being a safe partner for you.

Ok, more thoughts.

I'm probably enabling my WW. I mean, I KNOW I was earlier in our M. In some ways I'm probably enabling her now, but it's freaking hard to get out of those patterns... especially when you add the confusion of having a young DD into the mix. How do I not "enable" WW by occasionally watching DD while WW is off working? These things are hard to negotiate in a normal M, regardless of infidelity. That doesn't FEEL like enabling, but maybe it is. These are things I probably gotta dig into with my IC.

It has appeared WW really HAS been trying to leverage her diagnosis to understand herself, change her behavior and become a better person.

I believe this. She's trying. However, she has NOT been horrified by this latest incident, which I see as a flag. She says she wasn't seeking out attention, just trying to tell the truth... I don't think she was consciously trying to get attention, but I think she's in denial that she was seeking out that attention and, on some level, enjoyed it. I think there are still layers of denial she has to work through before she can make true progress.

Anyway, her recovery is HER recovery. I need to focus on me.

You truly do not have a good path in front of you. Do you want other children?

Are you seeking an actual romantic partnership with your wife? Would you be content with a business marriage while you raised your child?

Yes, I do want other children. I'm in my mid 30's, WW and I make beautiful lovely children, but I (obviously) don't know if I want more with her yet. And, yes, I am seeking a romantic relationship and would NOT be content with a business marriage. I want a deep and intimate connection too much to forsake that, and I'm too young and healthy to want to squander the rest of my life in a business relationship. That's not what I'm gonna sign up for.

So, that needs to weigh into my decision making process over the long term.

For yourself, awareness of the situation you are in along with the dynamics involved is a great first step in your own healing and growing stronger. I found "The Human Magnet Syndrome", "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and "Getting the Love You Want" all to be insightful and helpful in broadening my view on the underlying elements that I was tied up in. Ultimately, the books, some work with IC, time and self-reflection helped me see that I was worthy of being treated with love and respect and that accepting anything less was toxic to me

I want to read these books and work on myself. But I find myself reluctant... between raising a 6 month old, S-Anon meetings and literature, and work, I am not eager to spend much other time working on this aspect of myself. Despite the fact that I know it would be good for me. Maybe that's my current exhaustion seeping in, but I find myself bitter that I even need to spend so much time dedicating myself to handling this disaster of a marriage I'm in.

Maybe I need to hit a point when I'm reading for ME, not for HER.

You are not enabling by watching your kid. You enable an addict by allowing them to lie and manipulate. She is also lying and manipulating herself.

You need to not allow it. She should not have allowed herself to be paired with a male. She would have not allowed herself to be partnered with someone she knew was interested in. This is walking into the bar.

Everything that happened was predictable from that point on. Her addiction kicked in.

Stay on point and to the facts.

TW is valiantly fighting a battle albeit mostly single-handedly. Why do I think this is the case? After multiple transgressions, his wife is unable to do the bare minimum: stay away from alcohol and maintain strong boundaries with other men. Is that too much to ask? Apparently so. In this case, the "reconciliation" is a cruel joke.

With an infant to care for, TW, you are caught between a rock and a hard place. I wish you strength, but I think the writing is on the wall.

I agree with all your points in your update. Except for enabling her by watching your child.

---I have moved over 10 times. When I work with a realtor it's during the day. Does she only do her business at night?. Do you mind explaining the child rearing dynamic. I cared for the children myself when they were infants A little help from husband.

---I absolutely believe you must work on yourself. Not just for you but for your daughter. I truly question what will happen in the mother/daughter relationship as your daughter ages and becomes beautiful. I told you about my niece. MY SIL is gorgeous. So young looking. She is a ring-girl. Poses in her provocative clothing with men. My 14 year old niece keeps her hair long in front of her face. Only wears sports type box style clothing IE Nike, under armory. It's such a 180 from her mother.

--something else. I find this part ironic. My Aunt is also a soloist. Loves the attention.

--I don't think you are an enabler. You are a fixer. You want to fix this and have the dream with this woman. You are going to conintue to be hurt I fear. I don't have a crystal ball though.

I say fix yourself because you need to be ready the next time. The next time..done.

My spouse wasn't and is not a sex addict. He was a selfish ass. I made excuses for it until his affair. Now I have 15 1/2 years of marriage. 3 children with him. I won't stand for the "old life" any longer. But you know what, I have sooo much resentment and anger because I put up with his crap for so many years. There is a very specific time, I should have divorced before the affair. I didn't because I wasn't as strong as I thought I was.

Don't get to this point. Don't excuse the next time, mark your boundary. Don't psycho babble it. Try to make excuses. I thought my husband was on the spectrum. That was my go to excuse. He isn't. He was just an asshole.

Don't make more babies, let years and years pass because you have hope. You will wake up 45 years old. Having to pay out half your retirement and blah blah blah.....

Fix yourself, so you can position yourself for a good woman. One to make more babies with. One who will love your daughter and BE a positive influence on her.

I am not saying your wife doesn't love her daughter. The problem is she loves herself more.

I for one think this sex addiction, love addiction diagnosis that seems to be used more & more by the IC's when dealing with infidelity is just a way of somewhat justifying & alleviating some of a serial cheaters choices.

My opinion your WW likes to bang other men period. She is not loyal. She has no integrity. She has low morals. She should not be a wife.

[This message edited by notanotherchance at 12:39 PM, October 12th (Thursday)]

You are enabling her. She is not in remorse. She needs to file a complaint with her employer against him.