SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

^^^^^^^^

I think for our M to really grow we need to both work toward our emotional relationship. It should be both of us. And the same with sex. We were pretty even about this before my A, so I can’t help but assume it’s connected. I know, d-uh, right? But should I just assume this is the M we’ll have?

I wonder ....

I think it would help if you defined what you want in terms that are more actionable that 'building intimacy.'

That's projecting on my part - I want my W to come up with actionable words, because I sure can't. I'm happy with her. I like being with her. I think there's more we can get. But I'm stumped about what to do to get it.

Maybe Walloped's 'Fine' means 'I love you, and I don't know what to do to improve our relationship.'

Looks similar to you ... you want more but don't know what to do to get it.

Maybe it would be good for both of us to say that to our spouses....

Also, IMO, both partners are responsible for creating the M, so if you want something, it's up to you to make that want known. I guess my assumption is that there's no 'BS' or 'WS' in creating the new M; there's just 2 partners doing the best they can.

JMO, of course.

Unhinged,

Yes, I hope. Because whenever I bring it up the conversation gets sidetracked, or brushed off, or downplayed. So I don’t get the opportunity to really express what I’m feeling or what I’m experiencing. That’s why I asked if it’s okay to push the issue because I’ve tried to be respectful of his wishes and not push when I get the clear message that there’s nothing to discuss but maybe that’s the wrong way to deal,with this. So I hope he reads what I wrote and I did tell him I was posting because then he can process what I’m saying and seeing instead of me forcing a conversation on him that he doesn’t seem to want to have. That’s why I asked if it’s okay for me to do that as a WW. I get what you’re saying but I want to be vulnerable with him. I want to share with him and open myself up to him and of course I want him to feel as safe as he can and as vulnerable as he’s willing to be with me. I know that’s a much bigger bridge to cross for him. But I can’t do it if he’s not willing to have the conversation or even listen and let me be vulnerable.

I’m not saying he’s not entitled to his feelings or to not want to discuss this with me. And that’s why I’m unsure of how to proceed. Do I just let it go? Do I push? Do I wait and try later? I just don’t know what the right thing for me to do is?

I am wondering if there is a reason why you do not feel as comfortable voicing your concerns. There is this sense that you feel you still need to tip toe. Can you explain that to us? Do you feel you should have an equal voice in your marriage? Or do you feel that you have suspended that right indefinitely? I understand it, because anyone who has btdt knows that there is a great lack of balance after infidelity. Is it your perception? His response? I see you as one of the most remorseful ws that has come here, and to be that way it comes with a lot of humility. I am wondering if that humility is keeping you from understanding your own worth to Walloped? I could completely understand that because my guess is any one of us who became remorseful and got it has that as a complex to some degree. Recognizing it is important because I think it’s part of the healing. I am saying this because this seems to be the very step I am on currently. Understanding that he stayed because he loves me and not the earlier reasons that I think most bs’s naturally land on earlier out.

I am certain you are still right, something is off - but sometimes we are still contributing to it without realizing it... by tiptoeing we are not being authentic. Overdoing humility is not authentic. It can throw off the dynamics.

ETA we cross posted. Your response makes that sound like I am onto something here. In reality you are saying you are posting in a way to push it, right? I think at this point you have to push it. Bravesirrobin hit it in the head - you have a need to know what is going on in your marriage.

[This message edited by hikingout at 12:14 PM, October 6th (Sunday)]

Do I push? Do I wait and try later?

From my first post on the thread, I mentioned my wife being relentless and what I mean by that is that she leaves me no room to doubt her.

So she pushes. And then pulls back. Then she waits patiently. Then I get space. Then she pushes in again, and tells me how much she misses me. Rinse, and repeat.

By relentless I mean my wife is always, always fighting for us.

I think most men operate from the position of -- reluctance to share, and we simply build a bridge and get the *&^# over it -- even if we are not over it.

My wife reads here, she doesn't contribute posts, but she took a lot from here. So the intimacy truly begins with you sharing your toughest, most vulnerable feelings FROM THIS THREAD with your husband.

We can't fix a damn thing from here, we can only let you know what worked for us.

He may brush you off again.

Don't give up.

Get back in the ring, take another shot.

Fight for it.

Don't settle for a lesser marriage, make it better.

[This message edited by Oldwounds at 12:42 PM, October 6th (Sunday)]

I’m not saying he’s not entitled to his feelings or to not want to discuss this with me. And that’s why I’m unsure of how to proceed. Do I just let it go? Do I push? Do I wait and try later? I just don’t know what the right thing for me to do is?

I would think that basic respect in a marriage would allow for your BS to have boundaries around what he does and doesn’t want to discuss with you?

If he says “fine” or “I don’t want to talk about it” then can you try reminding him that you are free to talk whenever he wants to discuss it further?

Or ask him to listen - let him know he doesn’t need to respond straight away and share you concerns with him?

BS I am worried that you are in pain and I would like to help you. I would like to talk to you about building intimacy in our new marriage. Let me know when you would like to discuss it?

And then respect his boundaries around not being vulnerable with you?

Do you feel you should have an equal voice in your marriage? Or do you feel that you have suspended that right indefinitely? I understand it, because anyone who has btdt knows that there is a great lack of balance after infidelity. Is it your perception? His response?

Yes and no. We are equal and I have a voice when it comes to family. The children, finances, running the household, relatives, community things. We are equal in all of that and I don’t have a problem voicing my opinion. In fact, he kind of lets me lead when it comes to all of that. But when it comes to us, no. I’m not subservient really and humility makes it sound noble. I’d say I’m timid. Most of the time we’re really close and we laugh and enjoy each other’s company and the sex is good and we even argue too. But when it comes to discussing our M and if it’s R related, then I’m overly cautious I guess. Not scared as much as I’m unsure.

I see you as one of the most remorseful ws that has come here, and to be that way it comes with a lot of humility. I am wondering if that humility is keeping you from understanding your own worth to Walloped?

I’ve done a lot of work on my own sense of self and my value as a person. But that’s really more about me and how I feel about me. Not about my value to him. I know he values me as a mother and as a wife in a bunch of ways, but I don’t know that he values me in the way that counts the most. I don’t know that I value me as a wife in the way that counts the most.

The “forsaking all others” part of marriage is a pretty big component. When we drop that commitment it removes a large part of our value as a safe spouse for life.

Have you ever considered doing some drive-by authentic sharing...Sharing where you are, with no expectations of your husband engaging?

I actually do this quite often (I'm the BS), because that's where I'm at. I'm not interested in having deep/intimate conversations for a variety of reasons. Being heard is good enough.

So, if I were you, I might find my husband alone for 3.5 minutes in the kitchen making dinner and say "Hey. Dinner looks good. By the way, I feel like you aren't interested in me sexually. Going to clean the guinea pigs out now...if the kids help, I can get that done you finish cooking. Can you hand me a garbage bag?"

My husband might later circle around and ask me if I wanted to talk more about it. Depending on how I'm processing I might or might not. Or he might change his behavior to try to let me know he's interested in me sexually. Or he might forget I even said something because he's preoccupied with 100 other things.

And even if I don't want to talk about anything, my husband still does appreciate that I've shared out with him.

Mrs Walloped - I completely understand what you are saying. I feel like I am on the same step actually. I feel like I have worked a lot on my self love, self compassion, self worth. And, actually I wouldn't even realize some of this except my H expresses when I timid it reminds him of the person who had the A. And that I am not embracing the idea that it took so much love to stay. I don't know if Walloped feels that way, or is reacting to that undercurrent at all, but I do believe this is something you and I both have to fix in our part of the healing process. I don't know why I wasn't quite seeing that in what you were saying, a lot of times I guess I assume we are all in different places based on timelines, but then I remember healing is not linear and sometimes we revisit things from a different standpoint until we master them.

[This message edited by hikingout at 10:20 AM, October 7th (Monday)]

Yes, I hope. Because whenever I bring it up the conversation gets sidetracked, or brushed off, or downplayed. So I don’t get the opportunity to really express what I’m feeling or what I’m experiencing.

I think there's a relatively simple solution to this particular dynamic. "Shut the fuck up and listen." It was one of my favorite phrases a few years ago. I said it often. When it didn't happen, when my FWW either couldn't or wouldn't simply shut the fuck up and listen, I'd disengage and walk away. I established and enforced a boundary that I considered important. Now, that doesn't mean I was trying to dominate every single conversation. There were certainly times when I had to remind myself to the shut the fuck up and listen.

It's a skill, the ability to listen.

Now, suppose your BH does, in fact, give you 100% of his attention, looks you in the eyes, and absorbs and understands, to the best of his ability, what you're trying to tell him, and then... he says absolutely nothing? I'm not saying he will, btw. All I'm trying to suggest is that you carefully examine what, if anything, you expect to happen once you've poured out your heart and soul to him?

It's scary, isn't it, being vulnerable? Do you think it's possible that your BH isn't quite ready, yet, to be equally vulnerable himself?

It's taken me a long time, MrsWalloped, to recover, heal and find my own peace... of mind, body, spirit and just about everything else. Slowly but surely, I'm letting go and trying to be a little more vulnerable with my FWW each day.

Maybe your WH needs a little more time. Reconciled is one thing, healing is something entirely different. It's a non-linear path and a long one, to boot.

Have patience. Keep at it. Tell him that I said to shut the fuck and listen!

It's scary, isn't it, being vulnerable? Do you think it's possible that your BH isn't quite ready, yet, to be equally vulnerable himself?

Yes. It’s terrifying. In other ways I’ve done this. But not when I’m pointing out something I’m feeling from him.

Reconciled is one thing, healing is something entirely different. It's a non-linear path and a long one, to boot.

This is very true. I think I’d be okay if I was met with silence or if he said that he’s not there or he’s working through things. I believe I would. Because at least I’d be heard and I’d know that he’d have listened and we’d have communicated with each other about what is happening in our M.

Tell him that I said to shut the fuck and listen!

I will! I mean that seriously. I’m going to tell him that Unhinged said you need to shut up and listen. Because I think that will actually work.

I think as I’ve posted and gotten so many responses, that I’ve really been looking for permission to do this and assert myself in our M.

FWIW, you can add "and then OWL agreed with him."

I think as I’ve posted and gotten so many responses, that I’ve really been looking for permission to do this and assert myself in our M.

That's a very powerful AHA moment - one that I know you will spend a lot of time unpacking. If you are feeling that way, it may be effecting the way you are seeing your M, your H. It also may be effecting the way he is seeing you. Like I said, at times when I am timid, that is when it reminds H of who I was in having an affair. And, he's right. That's our waywardness showing up.

I am no where near an authority on the aftermath of infidelity and healing but I am very well acquainted with traumatic experiences that changes your life. I had two occupations in 45 years. Both filled with danger and violence. When I was 24 I went to war. I was on a Special Forces A-Team. I was trained by the best to be the best. I was young and bash and totally full of confidence. I went on combat operations just looking for a fight. Nothing could hurt me. Until one night, during a ground attack, I was shot and in an explosion all in a matter of 90 seconds. We lost some good men. That was when I started building my emotional wall. I never lost my confidence but I did lose trust and started steeling myself against the hurt at the loss of people I was close to. After 13 months I returned to my wife but I was not the same young and emotionally innocent young man that she knew before. I now had an emotional wall. I would dare say that the husband you had in January 2015 and the one you got in August 2015 are, by far, not the same man. In August 2015 your husband built an emotional wall. What happened change his entire perception of life. My wall is still there after over 4 decades and will probably always will be. More than likely, so will your husband's. Now the good part. My wall and your husband's wall both have a door to the other side. You just have to find the door. It took my wife over about 5 years to find my door. She learned to read me like a book. She knew when I was getting depressed, when I needed intimacy, when I wanted to be alone. She learned to stop me in my tracks and ask the questions she wanted answers too and she would not give up until I talked to her. Even with the wall, we have had a close, intimate, and loving marriage. Maybe his door is you sitting him down and make him listen to what you want him to know. Make yourself a list of questions and subjects you want to him to answer and absorb. One thing I know for sure. You will not get the answers unless you ask the questions. Ask....Why don't you initiate sex more often? (There could be several reasons for this from still having mind images to still wondering if you are comparing him to the AP) Why do you brush me off when there is something I want to talk to you about. Maybe he's just waiting for you to push a little. That will show him you are more serious about your and his relationship than he thought. Maybe that's his door. I have been pulling for you two for 4 years. I do wish you well.

[This message edited by anoldlion at 3:34 AM, October 9th (Wednesday)]

I had a long conversation with my husband last night. Yesterday was Yom Kippur, the Jewish Day of Atonement, and God knows I have a lot in my basket to apologize and ask forgiveness for. It just seemed like an appropriate time to have this conversation so when we came home from services, I asked if we could sit down and talk (and I told him that Unhinged said he should shut up and listen).

I told him how sorry I was and that I have no excuses. All of my Whys and FOO issues and feelings are things that contributed to my state of mind, but they didn’t cause me to betray him. I told him that I made that choice and I knew what I was doing but did it anyway and then pushed all of those things that mattered that would have prevented me from doing it out of my head and put it in a little box in my brain so I didn’t have to hate myself for it. I told him that he gave me such an amazing gift by working at R with me and that I loved him so much and was so grateful and that I wasn’t asking for his forgiveness and don’t expect him to be healed but that I saw he was holding back a lot. That he didn’t initiate sex and was kind of closed off emotionally and he wouldn’t talk to me about it when I asked him and that I understood that but wanted to know if there was something bothering him or a specific reason or was it that he just had to work through things or did something happen that maybe changed his mind about us and our staying together? I talked a lot more but mostly I just begged him to talk to me and tell me what he’s thinking and feeling and how I can help him and what does he need from me even if that’s for me to leave him alone.

You know the saying “be careful what you wish for because you just might get it?” I got it. But at least he opened up. He talked to me. And it wasn’t a “good” conversation but it really was because we talked and he let so much out and so much of what he was dealing with. He’s not healed and he’s working through a lot. He didn’t really realize he didn’t initiate sex, just that I did it so often he said he went with the flow. Although he said there were times when he thought about initiating but didn’t because he didn’t feel he needed to. He said it was childish of him but he felt justified. He hasn’t talked to me when I asked because he didn’t want to lash out at me and he’s was working through his feelings and mostly anger in his head. Anger is an emotion and feeling that he’s really struggling with. Anger at me and anger at his life. At the same time he’s fighting himself over the concept of forgiveness. He talked about Yom Kippur and asking God for forgiveness yet he can’t bring himself to forgive me but then how could God forgive him and isn’t that hypocritical of him? And with all of that he’s struggling because he says he loves me and he doesn’t want to be angry but he can’t let go of it, like it’s his security blanket that he can wrap himself in whenever he needs to. His anger keeps him safe but he knows it also keeps us apart and holds me at a distance. It also gives him a sense of control over his life because he didn’t have a choice in what I did yet it happened to him and now he has to do with the consequences of my actions and how is that fair, so his anger helps him take control. And most of the time he’s happy with me and sees us staying together and he says my commitment has helped him with his commitment and that he loves me, our children, and our life and he’s blessed in so many ways, but then this keeps popping up and he doesn’t know how to deal with these feelings and how to put them into the right context in how he sees his marriage and his life.

I told him that I didn’t have any expectations about his healing and that he should work through it at his pace in a way that’s comfortable for him and that I understood his not wanting to lash out at me, but it would better if he talked to me about his feelings and not to try to spare me, if he felt comfortable with that. I told him I was sticking with him and wanted to help in any way that I could if he’d let me. And that if he did want to stay together then even if it might be hard we need to be together in dealing with his feelings and work through them and he shouldn’t have to do it alone. And I asked him if he thought maybe us seeing a MC again might help and he agreed! And I thanked him for still loving me and still sticking with me and still seeing us together in spite of his anger and the emotions he’s wrestling with.

There were lots of things he said that hurt me not because they were insulting but it hurt inside because it showed he was hurting a lot and he kept it bottled in because he thought he was helping me and being all noble and responsible and because he loved me but he had all these feelings he didn’t know what to do with. But I was really grateful he finally talked to me and shared with me. I don’t know what I expected but at least now I know what’s going on in our M and I know we have a lot of work to do but it's out in the open now so maybe we can really work on it.

Great update, Mrs. Walloped. I suspected there was a lot lurking under the surface. If it's any consolation, sometimes when we talk about things it starts to air them out. I am sure he feels some relief over your conversation with him.

I feel a little guilty because I told him at DDAY what my husband's attitude towards antiversaries was and It probably just reinforced with him that he needed to figure it out, that it wasn't you it was him, and that really was not my intention. My intention was for him to see if he could reframe it, but not for you, for him. That's some of what I think might be helpful for him to see - that working through this is for him - for him to find his own peace- and not for you. I know that's what you are saying as well in this message.

I am relieved he finally just told you what was on his mind. I sensed his anger in some of his recent posts and I was concerned for him too. Genuinely.

I will pray he will find peace, in whatever form that takes. Take good care of him, and of you.

You just might have found the door you've been looking for. I do wish you well.

With my wife and I, connecting intimately is probably the most triggering. It's still early days (about 9 weeks) and I'm trying desperately to see the woman I married but my god the bedroom is pretty much ground zero. So far the closest I've gotten to feeling any connection was out one day with my wife and the kids at a carnival just wandering around. I was briefly able to forget all the crap in my head and remember the family we committed to 18 years ago.

I'm really, really glad to see this update, Mrs. W.

My BH has also struggled with how to deal with anger towards me. I've encouraged him to share it, but I think he feels like it he lets it off the leash, that will hurt him at least as much as it does me, and he doesn't want to hurt either one of us. I asked him last night if he ever felt like he wanted to leave, to find a less complicated relationship with someone else where sex wouldn't be tied up with mind movies and triggers. He said yes, he'd had to think about it sometimes, because this was all so exhausting. It hurt to hear that, but it helped more than it hurt, because it meant that he was being honest with me, and we can't rebuild without honesty. I admitted that I had had the same thoughts. But both of us also had the same internal response to those thoughts: 1, uncomplicated is an illusion, and 2, that would mean being with someone new instead of with each other. And we'd both rather have this problematic, painful mess we're in right now than "uncomplicated" with anyone else.

I'm so glad you asked for honesty and accepted it. Although I know it's still a painful journey, I see so much hope in it.