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A big part of me leaving the shame behind was me addressing my very co-dependent thinking and behaviors. Master level Coda here.

Were two halves that made up one. Instead two individuals that came together.

The thing is I couldn't really see it before, but so much of my life was spent sacrificing my own needs on the altar of the almighty M. It was literally foundation shaking to me to see that I had to be a part of versus one that I wanted to be a part of.

Further when she had an A it had to be because I was not husband or man enough to keep her loyal. I couldn't dare think or say that she was not perfect. Why ? Because I choose her therefore I picked the perfect wife therefore I am the perfect husband therefore . . .crazy shit right there.

My wife is her own person with her own problems. Sometimes there are things I can help with, but I know now there is a point where it is "her" problem. The same goes for me. Not every issue I have is because of her.

I think the recent APA efforts to demean and erase “traditional” masculinity and deride very real gender differences is a great example of the trend I’ve observed that not only disregards how men think....

It's really critical to read SI and notice - really notice - that there's a wide variety of opinion among men and among women.

For one's own mental health, it is critical to notice - really notice - that it's unhealthy and empirically invalid to believe one's own opinion is shared by everybody here or by the men here or by the women here.

[This message edited by sisoon at 4:14 PM, November 7th (Thursday)]

A big part of me leaving the shame behind was me addressing my very co-dependent thinking and behaviors.

In your case, it sounds like the framing of this was healthy and helpful.

Not trying to start a big debate, but I have recently become aware that the therapeutic community seems to be awakening to a model that addresses betrayal trauma more specifically and shies away from co-dependency in infidelity situations.

In the betrayal trauma model of counseling betrayed spouses and wayward spouses, if you'll listen to podcasts that have been posted several times on SI, co-dependency is seen as less useful because it seems to often slip into pathologizing the victim. In fact, during the podcast, the therapist specifically says something like "co-dependency pathologizes the victim in infidelity situations."

In other words, it seems to sometimes wrap up the betrayed spouse in a subtle form of blame shifting. For me, that's untenable. Our previous MC tried to sell his own model: That my WW and I had somehow created an elaborate psychodrama together in the years before her adultery that essentially was a sort of "black magic" (my analogy, not his) that conjured the adultery. I thought this was ludicrous, absurd and blame shifting. I refused to take the burden of her bad choices on my shoulders, and I told the counselor that. Not too long after that, we left him, but not until after we'd spent thousands of dollars.

I can't tell you what a difference it has made to me personally recently to be in therapy sessions with a counselor who specializes in betrayal trauma, who doesn't minimize my pain, disregard or wave away my feeling of emasculation, or try to entangle me in my WW's disordered behavior and decisions.

YMMV and that's just my own personal experience.

I'm in no way trying to invalidate others who have found co-dependent thinking helpful or disregard how it was helpful to you, just thought everyone might find that interesting.

Blame shifting is very tricky. Any movement toward blaming the betrayed should be quickly subverted and exposed. I always use the analogy of the spouse that is hit. It's never their fault their spouse chose to hit them. They may have yelled. They may have been difficult, even enfuriating, but hitting is over the line, no matter what. NOTHING justifies hitting, UNLESS you hit someone in self defense.

In the affair context, there is not even self defense. Once again, let me re-iterate, there's nothing wrong with giving up on a marriage and divorcing. Or opening up the marriage to new partners with BOTH consenting to an open marriage. Betrayal is a different beast altogether. It is akin to rape, in that your thrusting another human into a sexual situation where you share intimate encounters with a third party, without your consent, exposing you to STDs, and certain humiliation and great trauma upon discovery.

There is NO justification. If you are out of love and in love with a new person, then be honest and leave. Marriage is not a prison. If you cannot keep from straying due to sexual addiction, then be honest and leave to deal with it and have your freedom. Do not pretend you are loyal to have your cake and eat it too. That's fundamentally unfair to the person you betray.

If you as the betrayed feel you might not have been enough for your wayward, trust me, you ARE the enough for the right person. Maybe your wayward is simply not the right person. Again, be honest and move on before the damage is done.

I think the recent APA efforts to demean and erase “traditional” masculinity and deride very real gender differences is a great example of the trend I’ve observed that not only disregards how men think....

It's really critical to read SI and notice - really notice - that there's a wide variety of opinion among men and among women.

For one's own mental health, it is critical to notice - really notice - that it's unhealthy and empirically invalid to believe one's own opinion is shared by everybody here or by the men here or by the women here

Thank you Sisoon.

I have never felt shame for my husband's choices. I've been gutted, angry, and hurt, but not ashamed.

Lots of variance amongst us cheated-on folk.

For one's own mental health, it is critical to notice - really notice - that it's unhealthy and empirically invalid to believe one's own opinion is shared by everybody here or by the men here or by the women here.

Sounds like an important growth moment for you. Good for you!

I'm positive that I am really a woman and not transgender, and yet, I do not relate to a lot of these stereotypes. If you try to predict things about me based on my genitals, you're going to get a whole lot wrong.

I feel the same about a lot of societal definitions of gender. I've always joked that I'm the man and my fch is the woman in our relationship. I'm more masculine in my thinking, my physical appearance, and even hormone levels than most women. I am naturally more muscular. I'm the woman who does get big muscles from lifting weights. I have higher than "normal" testosterone levels.

I was reading an article recently discussing the controversy over letting transgender females compete in female sports. One big argument is that transgender females have higher levels of testosterone, which gives them an advantage. However, studies have shown that females who enter competitive sports also have higher levels of testosterone. That's part of what makes them so good at what they do. So, maybe the chemical differences we think we understand aren't quite as clear cut.

There are, obviously, biological differences between males and females. However, we are not ruled by biology. We also (hopefully) have critical thinking. And, there is much variance within and across gender lines. One size definitely does not fit all.

The male oppression of emotion is almost certainly a social construct. Men have the same capability of feeling and expressing the same emotions as women. I have 4 boys who were not emotionally oppressed, so they are not emotionally stunted (as much?).

Although the mechanism may be different, I don't really see much difference between the way men and women react to having a LTR or betrayal. I very much considered my fch as mine. He was MY man. I was extremely emotionally and psychologically damaged by his cheating. I had PTSD and needed EMDR to recover from it. That may not, technically, be emasculation, since that's a male construct, but it's just as damaging.

The feeling of not being "man enough to keep BW happy." Of being "cuckolded." Of "losing" the competition to other men.

Does this particular woman, your adulterous wife, solely define your “manliness”?

Is she thee standard-bearer who declares what is and what is not “manly”?

Or, rather, is she really a lying, deceitful, child-minded backstabber that runs away from her inability to validate herself?

You were never “cuckolded” unless you chose to stay with a woman who is still having sex with other men.

You were married to this woman - there was no competition for anything.

The competition with other men was over when she vowed herself to you with her vows of marriage.

Remember that part “And shall forsake ALL others...”?

If you kept true to your vows, held fast to your moral compass, and lived your values honestly, then you have absolutely nothing to be or feel ashamed about - NOTHING.

What she did had nothing to do with you or your marriage.

The shame in all of this rests completely within her.

I was shocked, confused, angry, in disbelief, sad, heartbroken, furious, fearful, and deeply disappointed in her - but I never, at any point whatsoever, felt any shame or responsibility.

[This message edited by keptmyword at 6:07 PM, November 9th (Saturday)]

👏👏👏👏, keptmyword!

WH here but still my wife had the same shame for a short period of time and it basically is built on the same BS lies we waywards tell ourselves when we cheat and think we must be "special" if the AP is willing to risk losing their marriage for us.

Truth, it is the opposite. We are scum. Bottom of the barrel. There is no competition. We didn't compete. We accepted whatever/whomever was willing to get involved with a married person. Lets face it us cheaters were not outstanding people. Majority are married and not single. Most likely we couldn't even catch a single person if we wanted to compete. Truth. It wasn't that the BS wasn't woman enough or man enough to keep us. It was that they were too good. Held us in high regards and kept us accountable. That wasn't what we wanted. We want to feel sorry for ourselves and sit in our shit instead of taking the hard road to change. We are simply-needy easy and willing to settle for someone like us. Just easy. You aren't cuckolded or for my wife going against your moral values and self respect. You are extending grace and mercy. Things I value in my wife. You aren't losing competition. The AP would have needed to be of equal value or more. We settle for our bottom of the barrel APs. We were bottom of the barrel too. Truth is you probably settled for some time for a cheater that wasn't good enough for you. I know my wife did. When I got it and owned it I made damn sure I earned her and I made it so she wasn't settling for me. You have nothing to be ashamed of. You are guilty of nothing.

Do I feel shame that my STBXWW cheated on me? I could stack up every way I outmatched the AP, but what would it matter? I'm not better because I'm smarter or more educated or more successful. I dont measure myself that way. I'm better because I am a good man and always strive to be. So if she turned her back on a good man, good riddance to bad rubbish. I can look at myself in the mirror, and although I grieve and feel intense sadness at time, I feel no shame.

Make no mistake, she did try to blameshift and still does. Besides telling me she was seduced and taken advantage of, she tells me that she takes full responsibility for her affair, but I need to take responsibility for the things I did which contributed to her vulnerability, yadda, yadda, yadda. I have no idea if she is still in the fog, but I suspect so. She is not one prone to introspection. But really, who gives a shit now? I mean, if she suddenly came around, took full responsibility and showed remorse, would I suddenly feel better, would the years of pain just melt away?

My job is to take care of me and my children. She can worry about herself. Crap, this thread was about shame right?

No, I dont feel shame. Contempt, yes. Shame, no.

Never felt shame. Just extreme hatred.

Never felt shame. Just extreme hatred.

I felt this hatred as well.

I felt it mainly for my kids.

Extreme hatred for my XWW and her shitbag "friends" that helped destroy the family that my children loved and was their foundation.

I hated the fact that these people could look them in the eyes as though they were their awesome "buddies" while at the same time knowing they were going to devastate their lives - for nothing other than their selfish, entitled, needy bullshit addictions.

There were no feelings of being emasculated, inadequacy, being cuckolded, low self-esteem or any of that, but mountains of hatred for those that would willingly betray trust - especially the innocent and blind trust of a child.

I hated the adultery partner but I did not care one bit about his dick size, whatever positions they had sex, what she did for him, how much sex they had, whatever money he had - that meant nothing to me.

I sure as hell did not feel like I was competing with him for my XWW.

I mean, what was the prize for this "competition"?

What would I win - some piece of shit that would lie, deceive, vilify me, and stab her family in the back?

No, thanks.

My XWW had completely invalidated herself in my eyes, my world, my perspective, and my marriage to her.

She was the one who instantly became inadequate for me in every way - attractiveness, sexually, financially, personality, morally, etc.

I hope you are able to garner a new perspective of all this and truly see it all from the outside.

For when you truly do, you will see that it is your WW that is woefully inadequate for you.

For me if I felt shame it was more about not standing up for myself. Not doing the 180. Not telling my friends and family of what happened and covering up, playing the pick me dance.

Having said whether someone else or myself, we all are simply doing the best we can with the tools we have and trying to make what we think is the best decision at that time. As time goes on we have the opportunity to learn and grow.

It’s natural to feel humiliated and shamed. Especially initially..

Then you realise what a piece of shit these APs really are.

Often I wish it were the Middle Ages and I could take matters into my hands and really punish the AP. Unfortunately, it’s 2019. I’d rather be free than in jail. Even while carrying the pain of humiliation and shame at times.

As one of our famous presidents once said: “the world wasn’t meant to be fair”. Wasn’t he also an adulterer?

[This message edited by Mene at 12:33 AM, November 12th (Tuesday)]

I sure as hell did not feel like I was competing with him for my XWW.

I mean, what was the prize for this "competition"?

What would I win - some piece of shit that would lie, deceive, vilify me, and stab her family in the back?

No, thanks.

“What contest in hell did I win?”

[This message edited by ramius at 2:42 AM, November 12th (Tuesday)]

I never felt shame only anger and outrage but if I had not first confronted her AP and then had an RA i certainly would have felt shame.

Just a reminder that the Reconciliation forum is not the place for venting or name-calling.

She was the one who instantly became inadequate for me in every way

Maybe not instantly, but this is how I felt about my fch. I lost all respect for him. He became nothing.

I felt the lingering shame you spoke about. I still don't want others to know what happened. It's been a while for me and it's still there.

Logically I know I have nothing to he ashamed of... but since when do emotions react to logic?

Ate a shit sandwich. No matter how much I brush, I'm still gonna fear other people smelling it in my breath.

[This message edited by Notthevictem at 7:19 PM, November 14th (Thursday)]