SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

DH asked:

"Wh messaged me at break. He is upset that I am mad about him looking at those pages and insists he isnt cheating.

He doesnt see what is wrong with him looking at other woman.

Am I wrong to be upset?

Am I wrong to not approve of him messaging old female co workers who he may have slept with?

I know looking isnt a crime but for a man who has had multiple PAs EAs and has spent more time online looking for NSA sex, how am I supposed to react???"

I think the answer is what is more important to him? Those activities or HIS WIFE. Does he put his wife first? Do his actions speak to his wife? (hint they do, but not in a good way)

Doing things his wife dislikes, to me is worse than not doing things she likes.

We're not talking about bowling with the guys once a week.

Marriage and wife come first or WH comes last. Simple math.

So then all of your threads are just vents, right?

Probably most. Also post alot in OT totally unrelated to infidelity...

Because you don't really want help solving this?

Not when the only advice is divorce when I've said that's not going to happen. I get a feeling of divorce or shut up and has been why I dont post often about my wh and myself.

The point is for ME to get out of Infidelity.

I cannot control what he does.

I can only control me.

So advice about how to work through acceptance of grieving the marriage and going forward in a cohabitation scenario is appreciated.

Why are their only two camps here that people insist on without allowing for grey areas?

I do not need wh to be happy because I am living my dream. Divorce means losing that dream. Losing time with the kids. Fuck it if I end up losing all of that theres just no point to life. I worked damn hard to get this, I enjoy every minute of sweat and blood I pour into it and everyone sees that as a weakness instead of strength.

I think the answer is what is more important to him? Those activities or HIS WIFE. Does he put his wife first? Do his actions speak to his wife? (hint they do, but not in a good way)

Doing things his wife dislikes, to me is worse than not doing things she likes.

We're not talking about bowling with the guys once a week.

Marriage and wife come first or WH comes last. Simple math.

Thank you!!! It IS simple.

The point is for ME to get out of Infidelity.

Dragn you're right - this IS the overall point. But all this time later and you are still stuck in the infidelity vortex. You're still here, still hurting, still angry at wh, still upset at his continuing wayward behavior, wtill setting boundaries that he continually disrepects... so IMHO, you aren't out of infidelity at all. You've been stuck in the toxic bullshit for a decade.

Look, I can't say that I would make the same choices you are, but I also am in no way saying what you are choosing is wrong. You have to make the decisions you can live with. I do understand not wanting to lose the farm and that life that you've worked hard to get to. I get it.

As far as grieving the M... I'm divorced and very glad of it, so take that with a grain of salt, but it seems to me that you are still trying to control your outcome. You say he's a roommate, then are angry at his actions (or lack thereof) as your husband. You say in one breath that you don't care about sex, but will allow him to be FWB so long as he doesn't cheat (which he will because he hasn't stopped his cheating behaviors). I read a lot of contradiction in your posts. Maybe that's because YOU don't quite know what you want/where you're at - and that is okay. But far as I can see your options are as follows:

1. Divorce. Yes, this means losing things and changes. But it also means gaining freedoms you don't have right now.

2. Stay married 'on paper'. MHO means that you both live separate adult lives (as roommates) and don't concern yourselves with what the other is up to - essentially an 'open marriage' or a permanent in-house separation.

3. Stay married and work through things. This would mean a LOT of work on his part that I just don't realistically believe will happen at this point.

4. Stay married, live separately. Also probably unrealistic.

None of these options are 'wrong', they are all just varying degrees of suck. And each has pros and cons that all deserve weight and consideration.

But dear, you won't be out of infidelity until something gives. And that's either divorcing, which you adamantly refuse to consider, or accepting that he is no longer your husband anywhere but on a piece of paper. You can't have it both ways. You can't control him, but you can control YOU. Have you considered moving into a guest room and setting up your own space? If he won't concede the master br, maybe it is time to think about letting him have it... I dunno Dragn - it's hard to offer advice in this case because you so often have reason a, b or c why you won't do that and you're really painting yourself into a corner with your pride here imho. It makes me sad for you.

I cant see him as a roommate of he sees me as his wife. Does that make sense?

I can only control me.

You need to attempt to reconcile these statements before you can get to acceptance. You are saying I have no control over my life as long as he does "x" but also suggesting you, and only you, can control yourself.

You need to be honest with yourself with what you want and how you feel. That is the first step out of limbo.

Dragnheart, I was once you. Please don’t be me.

Dragn - I'm picking up what you're laying down...and I'm glad you got to vent - it's been awhile! (As you said, you're normally posting in F&G {love me some SPF!} and OT).

Hugs, sister!

[This message edited by Lalagirl at 4:58 PM, September 28th (Monday)]

DH

I want to pay you a compliment, somewhat backhanded, but at the bottom, a compliment.

You have put up with a lot, A LOT, you're still there and you're willing to accept less than even still. You're willingly doing it and you know you are. You are allowed to make that decision (of course) and you have.

I feel strongly that nearly any other woman who did that for your WH would be such a damaged person that life with that person would suck. (NO PUN)

Even this damaged marriage beats anything else he could get, given it would be a damaged relationship.

He doesn't realize how good even the current situation is, even with the huge room for improvement that exists.

Imagine if it improved. Clearly that would be an awesome situation for both of you and truly more than he deserves, but you're willing to give it to him. (At least it appears so.)

What a shame he can't/won't put in the effort to grab the gold ring that figuratively speaking would only require he flex his finger from the keyboard and grab the ring instead.

You clearly have a huge heart. My point is: you're making decisions that for you are the best you can get at the moment, but don't lose sight that you must clearly be an awesome woman, mother, and wife.

Keep venting if that helps, ( I love to vent) you might get advice at times that helps, but don't forget to pat yourself on the back.

I really am confused why you aren't hearing what I'm saying.

I am 100% fine with a business arrangement type marriage with no emotion. I do not need a man in my life for me to be happy...

The getting to that is only a problem because he will play husband now and then and I want him to stop. He needs to accept the roommate relationship without expectation of coming home to his wife. I cannot be his "wife" while he is spending his time online looking at half naked woman.

So as Apache said:

Marriage and wife come first or WH comes last. Simple math.

Wh comes last. I take care of me (obviously the kids) and live my life regardless of what wh does.

The FWB thing isnt a hard thing to grasp either. He cannot go having sex with who knows who then come home and fuck me. Theres to high a risk to MY health.

So if he wants a FWB set up he can have that without any emotion or connection and without screwing anyone else.

That's not exactly hard for him to do. There wasnt any emotion involved in most of his affairs. He simply wanted to get laid.

Again I am not giving up anymore of my dreams nor time with my children because of his lack of maturity and caring.

And as I have said we get along fine when we arent playing husband and wife. We are happier as friends/roommates. And as much as everyone believes the kids suffer they dont. Mom amd dad are present, love them and are happy in this scenario.

I have only remained stuck because I wanted to R and have the marriage again. Truth is that the marriage died and theres no bringing it back.

It's been some recent threads and things others have said that's got me to this thinking. I can be happy in this scenario.

So many replies coming in as I'm typing. Omg people hahaha. I'm trying to keep up but one of my goats just jumped thr fence. I gotta go deal.

About a separate bedroom. Sure but we only have three master and two others the kids share. So...I can renovate the basement but dammit let me get the farm crap done first lol

I'll be back

I'm trying to keep up but one of my goats just jumped thr fence

I'm sorry, but I had to laugh. Farm life is no joke! But you love it, don't even say you don't.

We'll be here when you get back from yet another daily adventure in Dragnland.

I am 100% fine with a business arrangement type marriage with no emotion.

But are you *really* 100% fine with that? Dragn, I'm just saying that you don't sound like a pissed off roomie in your posts - you sound like a hurt and betrayed wife.

The getting to that is only a problem because he will play husband now and then and I want him to stop. He needs to accept the roommate relationship without expectation of coming home to his wife. I cannot be his "wife" while he is spending his time online looking at half naked woman.

So my advice here is just to disengage as best you can. When he tries to act 'husbandy', grey rock him. You can't make him accept a roommate relationship, but you can darn well set that boundary for yourself and stick to it, regardless of what he does.

Maybe setting up your own bedroom and renovating the basement isn't a bad idea. Setting up a space that is just for you, with your decorations and juju in it... might be a really good move for you. And possibly could help YOU with that mental separation you still seem to be grappling with.

You bad girl!

I'm all for it. Lt him have it.

I do not need wh to be happy because I am living my dream. Divorce means losing that dream. Losing time with the kids. Fuck it if I end up losing all of that theres just no point to life. I worked damn hard to get this, I enjoy every minute of sweat and blood I pour into it and everyone sees that as a weakness instead of strength.

I completely get it. I am in a similar position although we've grown out of the kids/goats emergencies.

My H is a sex addict, mostly porn. He says he's not currently using, I sort of believe him, but I won't know because I refuse to check up on him. Divorcing would mean giving up a lot, I've worked and sacrificed a lifetime to get where I am. That said, if he crosses a line with RL people I'm gone.

I like the idea of setting up a room for YOU. After the goats. It will enable you to further detach from him so that his infantile behavior isn't an issue. You can go to HIS room if YOU want sex. But please protect yourself from disease, you know you can't completely trust him.

As the kids age and become easier (they will!) you'll reassess your position.

And vent away, dear Dragn. You have a lot of fans here.

I'm sorry, but I had to laugh. Farm life is no joke! But you love it, don't even say you don't.

Ya I love it and his escape tactics I was well aware of. That's what I get for putting up a nice pallet fence and not the 6 foot gates...with barbed wire on top.

Hes a good boy and since hes the only buck and the mate to my girl he doesnt go far. So far she hasnt figure out how to get out so he just jumps back in to butt rub her over and over.

But are you *really* 100% fine with that? Dragn, I'm just saying that you don't sound like a pissed off roomie in your posts - you sound like a hurt and betrayed wife

Yes I am 100% ok with not being in an emotional relationship with wh. And I only sound like a betrayed wife because I need to do this:

So my advice here is just to disengage as best you can. When he tries to act 'husbandy', grey rock him. You can't make him accept a roommate relationship, but you can darn well set that boundary for yourself and stick to it, regardless of what he does.

Becoming the roommate from the wife and sticking to it. That's the type of advice I need. Support for sticking to it. Lol. It's kinda like me and diets. I'm still chubby cause I Hbe no will power at all.

You clearly have a huge heart. My point is: you're making decisions that for you are the best you can get at the moment, but don't lose sight that you must clearly be an awesome woman, mother, and wife.

Keep venting if that helps, ( I love to vent) you might get advice at times that helps, but don't forget to pat yourself on the back.

I'm doing the best I can but this means a lot, thank you!

Dragn - I'm picking up what you're laying down...and I'm glad you got to vent - it's been awhile! (As you said, you're normally posting in F&G {love me some SPF!} and OT).

Hugs, sister!

Thank you thank you thank you. Hugs right back at ya.

I like the idea of setting up a room for YOU. After the goats. It will enable you to further detach from him so that his infantile behavior isn't an issue. You can go to HIS room if YOU want sex. But please protect yourself from disease, you know you can't completely trust him.

As the kids age and become easier (they will!) you'll reassess your position.

And vent away, dear Dragn. You have a lot of fans here.

My own space would be so nice. My only issue is being back in a basement. My room at my parents was in the basement. I hated it. My father suggested moving the kitchen to the sunroom and making the living room two extra bedrooms with the old kitchen as a living room. I'll figure out something.

And ya I have to protect myself if we will be having any sex at all.

With all of the new medical stuff going on with all four kids a D would just send us all into an emotional turmoil none of us can afford. They need stability as we navigate this new information, tests etc. It will be a few months at least before we have all the results and even then more tests are scheduled for Dd next year at her next endocrine appointment. I know that logically things look good for only have a mild case of a very serious syndrome but I'm also preparing myself for worst case scenarios as it is still a possibility. Better to be prepared than not.

So I desperately need to detach from wh crap so can I be 100% strong for our kids.

I do not need wh to be happy because I am living my dream.

You do not post about your WH as a blissfully detached person who is merely "living the dream." You post as someone who is still very attached, frustrated, and trying to understand, change, convince, and control her remorseless WH. For a decade. Even in this exact thread.

Quick question:

Define cheating.

Wh messaged me at break. He is upset that I am mad about him looking at those pages and insists he isnt cheating.

He doesnt see what is wrong with him looking at other woman.

Am I wrong to be upset?

As others have said, you are not being honest with yourself about yourself. You are even contradicting yourself in the same thread. Unless and until you are willing to get honest about your own attachment and/or codependency issues that are keeping you locked in a bad marital dance, I do not see how either of you will ever be happy. And what you are modeling for the kids! WH on his phone all day every day liking hot chicks all over social media and confiding to other women who are kinda family but kinda not (whoever she is), all while his BW does everything for him while yelling at him. It makes my head hurt. How can you be enjoying any part of this constant drama? And now the roommate proposal? That will bring MORE arguing.

I'm sorry, but the website is dedicated to getting out of infidelity, but you two are still in it. He's convinced himself that if his dick is still at home, his mind and lecherous thoughts (and "likes") can go anywhere they want. How does that make you feel, knowing friends and family see that? It's SO hurtful. I mean, that's why you started this thread--payback--so where is the part that you are so happy on this dream farm? I just don't see it.

You don't like your choices? Wow. That's crazy because we all loved our choices, walking from long marriages, telling people we were getting divorced, starting over. Those were super easy choices...not.

Two choices:

Detach

Or divorce.

Changing him is not an option, even though you've been trying for 10 years. You were trying during this thread when he called you up "mad." When you detach, you will not care if he's mad or what he says. You probably won't even answer the phone. And THEN you might find some peace. Because this is not peace. Even though you simply refuse to be honest with yourself. Many are trying to tell you--this is unhealthy, not good for your kids, and not good for you. Detach or divorce. Do any of us ever have any other choice when stuck with a remorseless spouse? You need to get honest with yourself.

Eta: I am still trying to wrap my head around the fact that 18,000 posts and 9 years on this site and you wrote, "Define cheating." Does nothing about that make you stop and think, DragnHeart? You are the definition of stuck.

Eta: one more thing. This is like a cautionary tale. Nobody wants to be on this website in 9 years, after 18,000 posts, and asking what cheating is because their unremorseful WS doesn't freaking agree. Omg, no!!! We all want off this rollercoaster! Don't you?! Please save yourself. This is too, too long for you! Give yourself the gift of peace. He. Does. Not. Deserve. You.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 6:44 PM, September 28th (Monday)]

OwningItNow

I. Am. Not. There. Yet. Thus why the progression from payback to detachment is they route this thread is taking...

I do not see how either of you will ever be happy.

Well first his happiness isnt my problem.

Second, my happiness is obviously different from yours. And that's ok. I dont expect you or anyone else to understand, accept or live my happiness.

And what you are modeling for the kids!

You would prefer we pretend to be all happy and living the unicorn fart cupcake life? So we wont be hugging and kissing in front of the kids. Not that we did much of that anyways. We dont argue or fight in front of them either. If either of us are upset for any reason the kids are told so. Honesty above pretending. Moms and dads sometimes hurt eachothers feelings, sometimes get angry or sad and all of those emotions are ok. It's how we chose to react that matters.

WH on his phone all day every day liking hot chicks all over social media

This behaviour has been at work on his breaks or lunch. Wh does not use his phone at home unless the kids need codes for a game or we are looking up information, dd wants to download a new game or app etc. His phone is typically plugged in on the kitchen counter (unless dd takes his cord to charge her phone lol).

How does that make you feel, knowing friends and family see that?

Well I'm unsure how much of his facebook is actually visible to "friends" (family), anyone on his friends list etc. I cannot view this activity from my own facebook, even though I am on his friends list...and I'm not divulging how I see the activity on his phone. Though anyone with half a brain and tech smart can figure it out...lol

Also what his family thinks isnt my concern. Since they knew he was fucking ow2 (let me say that again THEY KNEW HE WAS FUCKING OW2) any opinion they have is mute at this point...

so where is the part that you are so happy on this dream farm? I just don't see it.

Well seeing as a dream farm falls into an off topic category I usually post about that down there. What's so amazing about it. let's see...man this might turn into a thread jacking of my own thread lol.

So firstly is always wanting a horse. Now have four, almost 100 acres of pure nature, large ponds, forests and fields, a total connection to Mother Earth. Goats. Though ya I'll admit so much harder to contain than any animal I have ever owned and stubborn as all hell but baby goats bouncing around bring lots of laughs and joy. Ducks, geese TURKEYS!!! Both domestic and wild. Deer and even bears. Coyotes can just fuck off lol. My own fresh chicken eggs. Listening to the distant call of the loons early in the morning as a thick fog covers the landscape. Needing binoculars to see my neighbours (great people by the way). Having the biggest garden around amd fresh veggies. Having raised our children with an appreciation and love of the outdoors they haven't suffered much being stuck home. They love catching frogs and snakes and praying mantis...

You were trying during this thread when he called you up "mad."

Actually I said he messaged me...not called.

And I said he was upset...not mad.

More like annoyed. Hes always annoyed if I bring up anything that pisses me off, affair related or not...

How much more honest with myself do I need to be for you to understand that I am ok with living how I wish to live?

Yes he isnt remorseful.

Yes hes lacking in something that makes him try to fill a void that he doesnt understand cant be filled (at least not with what hes been doing)

It's not my responsibility to help him find his way back to being a safe husband. If he even can.

Detachment is my best friend and hopefully SI peeps can help me stay on track with that.

My dream life isnt anyone elses dream life and that's ok.

And hes wrong in that I feel mad hes looking at those pages.

I am disgusted, not because hes looking at woman but because he liked a page of what appears to be young twin girls. Seriously they look 14.

Yet he had the nerve to berate a Male co worker for sleeping with a girl who claimed to be 16 and was in fact 14.

I simply called him out on his hypocrisy.

And wh is very jealous of any man who looks at me. He hates it and is rather.....what's the word.

Not controlling but well jealous. So it's ok for him to look at, talk to other woman but I get accused of cheating for saying hello to a neighbor if i see them at the corner store.

Again hes being a hypocrite.

2. Stay married 'on paper'. MHO means that you both live separate adult lives (as roommates) and don't concern yourselves with what the other is up to - essentially an 'open marriage' or a permanent in-house separation.

And that's exactly what I will focus on.

I second advice to get your own space or better yet - kick him out of the bedroom. Set up a bed in the basement and move his stuff down there. Get a lock on the bedroom door and keep him out. If he asks, the answer is, "NO!" If he begs, the answer is, "NO!" If he makes promises, "NO! But maybe I'll listen if you go to IC and have zero incidents of commenting, liking, or messaging involving OW and any deletion will re-set that clock for you."

The biggest issue I see with this set up is that you're giving him ALL of the power. You don't need his permission to enact a business type relationship. You simply need firm boundaries and to keep reminding him of those firm boundaries until he complies. So any thinking of, "But if he just...." No, he won't so you will have to work around him in order to make this work for you.

If he hugs you, say "NO!" And push him away. If he tries to kiss you, say no and turn your cheek. EXPLAIN to him each and every time why you need to keep it business only. If you do this, he will get it. He will stop. It will take a few awkward tries but who cares if he feels bad and awkward? This is the natural consequence of his choices and what you will need to do in order to retain your sanity and stop caring about what or who he does.

Honestly, I too think that part of your hesitance is because he holds so much power in your lifestyle. You can do all of the above and he can decide that he doesn't need this crap and file for D. Or if he's really as motivated as you say about keeping his lifestyle and kids close, then you really can enforce these boundaries and stick to them with success. He may even respond positively for once because the threat of losing you becomes real to him. Right now, he has zero fear about you potentially walking so stuff like this:

Those activities or HIS WIFE

Doesn't even occur to him. He cheated over and over and over again and you're still here in the same marital bed meeting his emotional and physical needs from time to time. You being upset for a few days doesn't matter because all he has to do is act stupid and it all goes away. You making a snarky comment or getting back at him is obnoxious and a little frustrating but hardly a threat. He doesn't even see or acknowledge any of your deeper pain and how can he when 90% of the time you don't complain and live your best life? He probably figures it's a decent trade off. The ego kibbles are worth it because he's not risking shit by pursuing them given the above. Even if you don't D, this right here needs to change for you to have any hope at R. That can change by actively making being married to you while a still a cheater more difficult and come with fewer benefits.

DragnHeart, I've followed you for a few years now. Initially, I too thought divorce was the best option. Ok, who am I kidding, divorce WOULD be ideal if you didn't lose time with your kids, the dream farm, and a huge chunk of financial security blown away. But, that's exactly what divorce entails initially. I get it, I really do. MY DSs are actually my stepsons and I too put up with way more shit than I should have. I didn't know about the affair(s???). But I was fully present while he was treating me like shit, or completely ignoring my existence. I knew if I left him he'd never let me see the boys again, and after 10 years (and their mother had left/abandoned when they were little), they were mine.

My advice, from the outside looking in, is to completely get into the mindset of a marriage on paper only, and absolutely no FWB at all. Move out of the room and create your own sanctuary. Behave exactly as roommates only. If sex is a must and being in a relationship is too, find someone else. Somehow, I don't think this is your issue, though.

You just cannot trust him to be honest about where he's poking his dick and it's no fun still playing the role of affair police for someone you're not even invested in. Besides, a true FWB actually understands that sex from others when not with each other is always on the table. Err... I may have had a best friend for a few years who had this arrangement with me while we were both in a singles situation.

Outside of SI theres varied definitions of cheating.

Wh works with all males now, mostly young males and from what's hes told me they all have differing opinions of "cheating".

Penis in vagina is the most accepted definition.

Anything outside of that is usually seen as "boys being boys".

Of course none of us here will agree. Anything we define outside of our boundaries can be cheating. I asked in Case he is still reading here (SI is open on his phone). So he can see that it's not just MY opinion but also that of other people that what hes doing crosses a line that shouldn't be crossed.

nekonamida

Thank you. I need help with detaching. I've gotten good at turning a cheek to a kiss. We just dont kiss. Hugs. Well I'm a hugger so that's hard but I'll push him away. This morning he grabbed me for a hug and I just stood there, frozen. No reciprocating at all. Now to push him away.

I also dont usually go to bed when he does. We will watch a movie together then once hes snoring I get up and go to the kitchen or just read in bed. No snuggling or good night hugs and kisses anymore.

He walked in the door tonight from work and was all snappy that the kids had left their bikes in the middle of the driveway. I told him s alping at me would do no good, the kiss have been in the back taking leaves while I was cooking dinner. I told him to bring it up with the kids. He was nice after that. Trying to show me silly videos he watched on Facebook. I told him I didnt want to see or I had seen similar things before. It hasn't been a bad evening. I did my thing he did his. Got the kids fed, meds done and into bed.

Now watching the second fantastic beasts Harry Potter series movie. I really enjoy this one.

StillLivin:

If he wants FWB then he needs to have std testing first and on a regular basis. Seeing as hes scared of needles this is unlikely to happen...so so is sex.