SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I’m not writing to convince you, Thumos. I’m concerned that other readers may make bad decisions for themselves based on your arguments.

For me, I'm concerned that other readers may make bad decisions for themselves based on any argument that divorce isn't a good outcome after infidelity. Divorce is always the right answer. Reconciliation may also be a good answer. Any idea that a BS should step carefully in order to avoid divorce is forgetting who the actual victim is and putting way too much value on the marriage vs the BS. The marriage has been nuked already. You're asking a traumatized BS to defend it's rotting corpse. Any attempt to turn D into R is on the WS getting their shit together and making that any kind of appealing option that doesn't equal further abuse.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 12:09 AM, Sunday, September 5th]

Permanently separated from a person who cheated on you? This is a bad thing, why? Time apart making you see things with more clarity and falling out of love with someone who abused you is something to be warned against?

A BS who wants R has just as much right to pursue their goals as one who wants D. And for BS's who want R, unless there is some compelling abuse going on, the better course is to work on R together. It allows the BS to closely observe the WS's behavior and t allows the WS to comfort their traumatized BS. Are you seriously saying that no one should try to reconcile after infidelity? Because that's what happens in every R, the BS continues on with someone who cheated on them.

My sane and healthy self does not act the way I did in the months post DDay. At all. Any. I kicked the husband I loved more than I could explain out of the house within 2 weeks of discovering that he'd developed a drug habit. I made my peace with the marriage ending. He went to rehab and came back to a very unsure wife. I discovered that he had been cheating on me and what did I do? Did I throw him out? No. I lost the ability to eat food. I lost the ability to sleep. I lost all self-confidence and clung to this person as if he were a liferaft. That is sick. It is not a healthy bond and it is not at all anything related to anyone's attempt at R. That immediate mental sickness, that trauma bond, is NOT a person making choices with a sane mind. That is an abused fucked up person. I regained my sanity after a few months and did end the marriage, but there is no part of who I was in the immediate aftermath of DDay that I recognize as myself. I feel nothing but shame and horror thinking of it. That was not me "making decisions" with anything like a rational mind.

That doesn't mean you had formed a "trauma bond". There are other possible explanations for our behavior which have nothing to do with systematic forms of abuse or the inability to get away from an abuser. We're all pretty much hard-wired from birth with a Fear of Abandonment which causes us to cry when we can't find Mother. Our primary relationship later mimics this emotional dependence. Our amygdala can't tell the difference between real and present danger and emotional distress. So, I'm NOT saying there's no trauma. I'm just saying that I don't think it meets the standard definition of "trauma bond" because in most cases, it's not going to fit the criteria. Believe me, I am very much aware that in our shocked, JFO stage, we might say and do some weird and dumb things, and yes.. I very much do believe that it's because we've been traumatized. But we still have choices and our choices are not controlled by some kind of "trauma bond" with our WS, particularly not after the shock of DDay has worn off. It makes us sound like brainless zombies who can't help ourselves and that's just NOT the case. We're still capable of higher thinking and meaningful decisions.

I've only skimmed this, but I disagree strongly that there is inherent problem with those of us who decide to R. There are good examples here of those who have R who do not have a dysfunctional relationship with their WS or FWS. And there are many here who have damn good reasons to agree to R that have nothing at all to do with trauma bonding or other unhealthy emotional attachments to their WS. I, personally, will never accept an abusive dynamic in my relationship, and I made that damn clear on Dday. If I find evidence of any lack of authenticity moving forward, our marriage is over. I had a remorseful spouse who checked all of the boxes as his A was discovered. If my developing trust over the past 4+ years is misguided, I still won't regret the work that I've done to recognize my own worth in this marriage, whether it continues or ends. Generalizing to others' situations in a way that questions the emotional health of all of us who choose R seems anathema to what this site is all about.

Further, Thumos telling us all to do something he has not done himself.

I'm confused - when have I done this? I've suggested that a therapeutic separation might be a SOP recommendation in most cases, including my own, because of a trauma bond. But I've left open ended the question of free will and personal decisions. Perhaps you're more disturbed by the implications of a trauma bond than anything I myself have said

A BS who wants R has just as much right to pursue their goals as one who wants D. And for BS's who want R, unless there is some compelling abuse going on, the better course is to work on R together. It allows the BS to closely observe the WS's behavior and t allows the WS to comfort their traumatized BS. Are you seriously saying that no one should try to reconcile after infidelity? Because that's what happens in every R, the BS continues on with someone who cheated on them.

Of course a BS has a right to pursue R. I've never said otherwise. Who here has actually "worked on R" with a WS right after DDay? Who had a WS who was R material on DDay? Who didn't have trickle truth and minimizing and that waiting period for the WS to get their mind back to reality enough to have remorse? While all this giving the WS time occurs, I don't expect that the average WS is in R or is really helping their BS. All the time spent waiting for a WS to remove their head from their rectum tends to add trauma to the BS.

That doesn't mean you had formed a "trauma bond". There are other possible explanations for our behavior which have nothing to do with systematic forms of abuse or the inability to get away from an abuser. We're all pretty much hard-wired from birth with a Fear of Abandonment which causes us to cry when we can't find Mother. Our primary relationship later mimics this emotional dependence. Our amygdala can't tell the difference between real and present danger and emotional distress. So, I'm NOT saying there's no trauma. I'm just saying that I don't think it meets the standard definition of "trauma bond" because in most cases, it's not going to fit the criteria. Believe me, I am very much aware that in our shocked, JFO stage, we might say and do some weird and dumb things, and yes.. I very much do believe that it's because we've been traumatized. But we still have choices and our choices are not controlled by some kind of "trauma bond" with our WS, particularly not after the shock of DDay has worn off. It makes us sound like brainless zombies who can't help ourselves and that's just NOT the case. We're still capable of higher thinking and meaningful decisions.

It was most definitely a trauma bond. I had been prepared emotionally to divorce this man. Had plans in place. Had wept with grief over losing him. Expected that to be the future. But what happened when I found out he had cheated? Suddenly I wanted him? Needed to feel close to him? Didn't immediately leave him? That's fucked up. That's trauma. That's not a healthy bond. Whatever healthy bond exists before infidelity, infidelity poisons it for a while. Sometimes for just a while, sometime forever. We aren't brainless zombies, but we are depressingly predictable as a species. This happens, that results, and we feel this way or that. The near uniformity of the feelings BSs report on this site is a fine example of that. Our feelings do inform our decisions. I don't know about you, but it felt like DDay gave me actual brain damage. I wasn't right for a while. Most of us don't seem to be right for a while afterwards and the "not right" symptoms are pretty similar. Most WSs seem to have similar mindsets in those early stages as well. The "shit cheaters say" threads, the trickle truthing, the predictability of all of our supposedly unique situations that enables us to advise one another here show that as well.

If you personally had a vastly different experience that wasn't as much of a mindfuck, that is absolutely amazing and I'm genuinely glad for you. If you had a WS who didn't do the same bullshit the vast majority of the rest do right afterwards to hurt you further, that is also very fortunate and I'm glad for you on that as well. That's seriously awesome. Not being facetious in the least. Seriously I hope that's the case.

I've only skimmed this, but I disagree strongly that there is inherent problem with those of us who decide to R.

I'd never say that in a million years. That's not how I view it at all. I agree that the trauma bond is a very real and common thing, that infidelity is abuse, and that a therapeutic separation if possible is probably a really good idea. What I'd never say is that there's something wrong with a BS who wants to R.

I don't know about you, but it felt like DDay gave me actual brain damage. I wasn't right for a while. Most of us don't seem to be right for a while afterwards and the "not right" symptoms are pretty similar. Most WSs seem to have similar mindsets in those early stages as well. The "shit cheaters say" threads, the trickle truthing, the predictability of all of our supposedly unique situations that enables us to advise one another here show that as well.

I'm not arguing that these responses aren't trauma-based... and devastating. I'm just saying that I do not believe that it typically fits the criteria for "trauma bonding" which is much more like Stockholm Syndrome. IMHO, in order for these responses to be explained by trauma bonding, you would ALREADY have to be trauma-bonded before DDay. The hallmarks are systematic abuse with intermittent rewarding over a significant period of time and the victim feeling that they are trapped and unable to get away. So, if your ex was abusing you for years before DDay with periodic rewards and you had no ability to leave or felt that you had no ability to leave, then yeah... maybe you were "trauma bonded". Otherwise, your experience can be explained by the same shock and trauma we all go through in the early aftermath of DDay.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:54 AM, Sunday, September 5th]

The aftermath of D-Day is a period of mass confusion for any BS in an abusive home.

During this chaos, mess, havoc, upheaval in the lives of the BS, they must go on with their lives. In this disoriented state of mind, many of us function in disbelief, in shock, in anger, in rage, in helplessness and so on with a multitude of feelings.

I lean towards some kind of separation, away from the cheater’s influences. Especially in abusive homes. The only reason I state this is because I did separate and it worked for me to regain my sense of self preservation. But I also recognize that this approach may not be a viable path for others. I was emotionally and in his drunken state at the time, physically abused.

I do not consider infidelity as abuse. I consider what the cheater spouse may do or say that demeans the spouse prior to infidelity, during infidelity and post DDay as abuse. Such as intentional or drunken physical abuse or emotional abuse. These are inherently damaged people who also happen to cheat.

So yes, I do lean toward a separation . Not because of the cheating but because of the abuse.

What follows a separation is a choice that each BS will make when the BS feels able to do so.

I know this sounds simplistic. And a separation is not for everyone. And some BS just can’t or won’t separate in abusive homes. For me it was fear of the unknown. I put up with the abuse. I denied it. It took his cheating on me to open my eyes and throw him out. 40 years of marriage down the drain.

Was this trauma bonding? It does not matter to me. What is important to me is that my life today is different with the same husband. No alcohol abuse, no emotional abuse and no physical abuse.

This is hard for me to write.

During this chaos, mess, havoc, upheaval in the lives of the BS, they must go on with their lives. In this disoriented state of mind, many of us function in disbelief, in shock, in anger, in rage, in helplessness and so on with a multitude of feelings.

EXACTLY.

Anyone who had a clear, concise, best-decision-making-with-the-information-at-their-disposal immediately after Dday is a rare bird indeed. So what is going to be the #1 universal piece of advice given to this individual? "TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF. GET YOURSELF TO A SAFE PLACE."

Whether that safe place is a physical or mental separation from the source of pain, I couldn't see anyone recommending against this. And we can go into the inability to read another person's mind, or challenging their wants, but that will always be the case about ANY situation that is not of our own decision. So why are we even here if we can't do so? I always thought that it was to give the best advice that we believe, and for the victim to decide what they will and will not apply.

I think that decisiveness is undervalued when it comes to infidelity. In my opinion, the decisive person will always prevail in getting out of infidelity the healthiest; the real problem....again IMHO....is that the individual needs to know that their decisiveness is coming from the right place. Fear is the immediate biggie that comes to mind. There is a WORLD'S difference between, immediately after Dday, with "I am going to reconcile with my partner" vs "I really want to reconcile with my partner, but I'm getting myself to a safe place(emotionally), and I'll give some time to see if they are worth the effort." Sisoon mentioned a BS that waited 2 years to try to reconcile, and now(unwillingly) is moving to divorce. That was their choice to make, but they also came here seeking advice. What was that person almost consistently told? That their partner wasn't R material. We were asked for advice, and it was given. Yes, the BS san still receive support here, but why should we agree that it was the 'right' choice because it was their decision to stay stuck? That BS never tried to get to a 'safe' place. Got extremely anxious when they were physically separated. I don't know enough about trauma bonding, but this BS definitely seems traumatized by the fear of losing their partner.

No matter what, I do strongly believe that we need, at the bare minimum, emotional separation to the point of clarity that decisions are not fear-based.

No matter what, I do strongly believe that we need, at the bare minimum, emotional separation to the point of clarity that decisions are not fear-based.

And this definitely includes "getting ducks in row" (for whoever might be confused by that).

I'm not arguing that these responses aren't trauma-based... and devastating. I'm just saying that I do not believe that it typically fits the criteria for "trauma bonding" which is much more like Stockholm Syndrome. IMHO, in order for these responses to be explained by trauma bonding, you would ALREADY have to be trauma-bonded before DDay. The hallmarks are systematic abuse with intermittent rewarding over a significant period of time and the victim feeling that they are trapped and unable to get away. So, if your ex was abusing you for years before DDay with periodic rewards and you had no ability to leave or felt that you had no ability to leave, then yeah... maybe you were "trauma bonded". Otherwise, your experience can be explained by the same shock and trauma we all go through in the early aftermath of DDay.

Aside from the year before DDay, I had what I thought was an absolutely glorious marriage. That year before I thought I had a good marriage where my spouse was suffering from depression and I was supportive and kind. There was no systemic abuse on the surface. There was the shock of a sudden drug addiction, but I didn't respond to that with trauma bonding. The feelings I had that absolutely mimic the trauma bond came only after DDay. I wasn't trauma bonded to him for one second before. Discovery of infidelity is like suddenly realizing that you've been abused behind your back. I think that same shock and trauma we all go through is a trauma bond even if we had not an ounce of it before. It isn't a sign of weakness on our parts. It doesn't mean that we didn't have a healthy bond before. It doesn't mean that we can't have a healthy bond in the future. It's just the psychological ramification of discovering that our spouse isn't who we thought they were and that they've been hurting us behind our backs for a while. It's the whole mindfuck of it. It isn't a statement on us. We all suffer horribly and our brains do what they can to try and find equilibrium, but we're flailing about internally and we aren't our best true selves.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 6:33 PM, Sunday, September 5th]

Thumos,

I have followed your story for over two years now, and there has been one thing that has been consistent throughout – - - that is you telling, sometimes even demanding, that BS’s take definitive action that you yourself refuse to take. It seems at each step of the way you tell yourself that if your WW doesn’t do something then you’re leaving. In each case, when she doesn’t, you analyze your situation to death and then move the goal posts and the saga continues. Most recently it’s been a therapeutic separation. You’ve been getting ready to start, to commence, to begin do it, but it never materializes.

From here. It looks like you’ve imprisoned yourself in a nearly five-year state of limbo. I sometimes wonder if your WW would really want to stay in the M if she knew you constantly referred to her as a "Stepford Wife" that cooks, cleans and provides sex on demand while you say you’re really no longer in love with her.

Sorry for being so harsh. It’s just painful to watch you so paralyzed at times, yet still in pain. Hoping for the best for you.

I guess it's easier to pretend that this is really about Thumos personally rather than address the issue of trauma bonding itself...

I have yet to see any arguments regarding the substance of his position from anyone except for CT who, despite all evidence to the contrary, denies its very existence. It seems more like those who seek to deny the possibility that the act of infidelity can cause a trauma bond to form, are more focused on defending their own decision to not separate and immediately go into R. And then they accuse Thumos of lacking objectivity.

This discussion has been very educational indeed.

[This message edited by AnOminousMan at 10:43 PM, Sunday, September 5th]

It seems more like those who seek to deny the possibility that the act of infidelity can cause a trauma bond to form, are more focused on defending their own decision to not separate and immediately go into R.

Probably true. And nobody wants to see their bond based in or enhanced by trauma because it sounds unhealthy or weak or whatever. That does not mean it's not good to ponder the trauma bond as a natural facet of the infidelity process in the same way we ponder a desire for revenge, reclaiming places, telling the other BS, outting the WS, hysterical bonding, or any of a number of aspects of the infidelity experience.

I personally believe it would be healthy and beneficial for every BS to insist on some type of separation immediately after dday, along with the NC letter, telling the other BS, quitting mutual jobs, telling friends and family, transparency, and gps. I believe that requesting the WS leave allows the BS to prioritize their own healing and not the marriage which get confused immediately after dday. That does not mean I want to recommend it to new BS because they will not, never, no way understand. They are too raw. It's too counterintuitive. Too many BS do not see that they are not their marriage and are therefore unable to believe that getting out of infidelity is what's important rather than keeping their spouse. That truth takes a looooonnggggg time and maybe never comes.

There's what should happen if everyone can do dday perfectly, and then there's what does happen becsuse we cannot do dday perfectly. Many are lucky to simply survive.

In a perfect world, immediate separation to clear one's head (or take back some control and power over the situation, as I see it) would be best, but I do not see that ever happening in real life. There's a learning curve. I believe these things because I'm a decade out. It would be unfair to expect a new BS would be in the same place.

But yes, trauma bonds are real and explain a lot. I don't think they explain all the bonds in a marriage because the marital relationship is way too complicated, but the insecurity and hurt from the trauma does explain certain feelings and actions for sure. They have to be worked through like anything else, and repeated disrespectful behavior or mixed messages makes it all worse.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 6:08 PM, September 5th (Sunday)]

Unsure 2019 - I think in Thumos’ case he’s completely stuck because he’s so far down the road with this snd on the surface of things being married to a Stepford Wife ain’t too bad.

The advice he provides, yet doesn’t apply to himself, is true. However, I think thumos would be the first to say that had he found SI at the onset, he would have done things totally different - i.e the prescriptives he doles out to others.

This is one case of serious stuck…

I guess it's easier to pretend that this is really about Thumos personally rather than address the issue of trauma bonding itself...

This idea that we should only dole out advice that matches what we actually did is a bit nuts. We'd all sound like a bunch of fucking idiots. "Here's how I fucked up. You should try that too."

However, I think thumos would be the first to say that had he found SI at the onset, he would have done things totally different - i.e the prescriptives he doles out to others.

Absolutely and I usually point that out. I typically also point out that I hope someone in JFO will avoid the pitfalls I stumbled into and I give them specifics about that as well.

that is you telling, sometimes even demanding, that BS’s take definitive action that you yourself refuse to take.

This is flatly incorrect. Nowhere have I demanded that a BS take actions.

I sometimes wonder if your WW would really want to stay in the M if she knew you constantly referred to her as a "Stepford Wife" that cooks, cleans and provides sex on demand while you say you’re really no longer in love with her.

I can answer this for you definitively. I didn't come up with this. BFTG did, everyone started using it including me and the sobriquet stuck. Yes she knows. She has read here before.

I have yet to see any arguments regarding the substance of his position from anyone except for CT who, despite all evidence to the contrary, denies its very existence. It seems more like those who seek to deny the possibility that the act of infidelity can cause a trauma bond to form, are more focused on defending their own decision to not separate and immediately go into R. And then they accuse Thumos of lacking objectivity.

Strange indeed and somewhat revelatory. I understand the discomfort with the concept of trauma bonding after DDAY. Yet it rings true to me. What I don't understand is a constant regression to the genetic fallacy whenever these sorts of topics are raised.

[This message edited by Thumos at 2:31 PM, Monday, September 6th]

Divorce is always the right answer.

True, but it’s not the ONLY answer.
It’s A right answer rather than THE right answer.

That is the crux of the issue IMHO. Posters that find JFO and share their stories of pain and are then told the ONLY answer – the CORRECT answer is divorce.
If there is some empirical answer to what the goal should be after discovering infidelity then to me it’s definitely neither divorce nor reconciliation. To me those are just two path that help you possibly reach the goal.
The goal is to get out of infidelity.

Are you mentally in a place to decide to reconcile the first days after learning of infidelity? Possibly not, not anymore than you are in a place to decide to divorce. However if you deal with infidelity from a stance of reality then it’s clear right away that if the infidelity is ongoing then reconciliation isn’t feasible, leaving one good path out of infidelity open for you.

True, but it’s not the ONLY answer.
It’s A right answer rather than THE right answer.

Agreed.

I was reading up a bit on this topic, and what I found interesting is that some of the signs of a trauma bond applies to the way my WH acted when we first got together. I wasn’t abusive, but I do think he came off several relationships where he was treated badly, and maybe he latched on to me because I wasn’t like that? Moved quickly to I love you, accelerated marriage timeline, etc.

I can only speak for myself but I do feel like I’ve been put through repeated trauma. I think with my dday last summer, trauma bonding could have been why I didn’t follow through with divorce. Could even be why I’m not following through now.

Thanks for bringing up this topic. Definitely something worth exploring with my IC.