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Lux, I agree. It would've been nice to receive some compassion from the in-laws. They can support their daughter as well as care about how you're doing.

I do wish she would've showed you some compassion, but I understand the mother's points though. Kinda a t/j: My cousin was a BS, but became emotionally abusive toward his WW after DDay (not saying you are). They separated and there was a lot of back and forth on whether they would attempt R. In the mean time, my aunt lost 20-30 pounds and developed stomach ulcers because she just wanted her son and DIL to get help, fix things, treat each other well, and not divorce. She said similar things about her son withering away as he sunk into depression and the "limbo" just hurt everyone. So although she should've reached out sooner, and should've shown some concern for you when she did, I understand her difficulty in not knowing what to say as she is likely suffering also.

And like Sharkman said,...your WW not being her old self is a good thing, because now she is on a healthy path. But I'm sure the MIL meant that your WW is depressed and that isn't easy for a parent to watch their child suffer.

Yikes, not a good message - definitely had an agenda. Are your inlaws conflict avoidant?

Omg yes, VERY conflict avoidant (as is their traditional Minnesotan culture)

I'm a bit surprised they didn't blame you for the affair.

Eh, they probably do, honestly.

She’s a shadow of her former self.

Not sure if that is a compliment or an insult.

I don't know, either. I think Joypursuit is correct that they see that she is depressed, feel bad about it, and just want to see that feeling end. They don't really care about her changing herself. They just want her to stop being said right now. It comes from a good place, but not terribly helpful to anyone.

In the course of my own reconciliation I learned some things about FWW's family that led to basically just cut them off. I am not rude. I am polite.

But I have zero belief that they give a damn about me in any way. I do not believe during the R that they really were on my side. So now when my wife goes home I no longer go with her. I make no effort.

It is just another lovely thing that comes from being betrayed.

Hi LJ

As I read what you MIL wrote to you my mind immediately conjured a picture of my tall, scraggy, long fingered great aunt. The one that always maintained that my grandfather married below him (the one that would have thought that I did so well in my choice in XWW ). There she was standing, pursed lips, sucked in cheeks and ever so tightly clenched anus. I could hear her saying precisely what you MIL said

Having been exposed to that for much of my childhood would you mind if I translate some if it for you.

"I've never really felt like i 'get' you, but that never seemed important. What mattered was that [WW] loves you and you treated her well.

“I have never liked you. Mrs LJ deserved so much more that you and I was somewhat upset when you two married but I was big enough to let my hopes for my child die when I realised that she seemed to love you and you seemed to at least treat her well. That was so big of me that you now owe me.”

What [WW] did was inexcusable, but the question is whether it's forgivable. I hope you can work it out,

Great Aunt was a stickler for etiquette and I clearly remember her saying that eating with the utensils in the incorrect hands was inexcusable (with the clarification always added, “like the Americans do”. Just in case it is not clear, the Americans do it the wrong way, just like with their driving. Remember, not me saying this). So what WW did to you was on the same level as eating with the utensils held in the incorrect hands, so why are you being so heartless and being so tough on her, you small minded little man. It is not as if it is something unforgivable. Like maybe you folk winning the war of independence or the Australians winning the Ashes. (Long standing Cricket tournament for those that don’t know).

it's killing me to see [WW] slowly dying inside. She's a shadow of her former self. Is there any spark of love left? If so the only chance you have is putting yourself totally behind trying.

“Now my boy, pull yourself together. I managed to put my feelings and pride aside and not interfere when WW made such a poor decision as to marry you. Now it is your turn to pull your socks up and start putting some manly effort into trying. Not this pathetic current attempt of yours. This is on you. You are the perpetrator here. How could my precious ever be wrong? This is all on you.”

If the embers have died out, then that needs to be accepted

“You spineless wimp. You have never been any good at decision making and this is another case in point. Man up here and at for once in your life make a decision. (you will note that she talks about the embers dying our as if it is you just slowly losing you capacity for love. No recognition that an avalanche of snow was dumped on the fire of your love)

This purgatory of not totally giving up, but not trying to make it better isn't doing anyone any good

“Yes, that clear demonstration of your spinelessness. You have never been able to make a decision in your life and in this instance you are not even deciding to not decide. (See, I was right in my judgment all along!”

I am sure that you did not need me to interpret this for you but it has in some small way helped me to deal with childhood dragons.

For the first time since I started reading your thread, I have some modicum of sympathy for your WW. Imagine spending your entire childhood in a household with that.

Apologies if I have offended. Was not my intent.

^^^^THAT^^^^

Ohfor has it nailed.

My 0.2$

Dont file D immediately.

If things are in your favor get a postnup with infidelity clause.

Get a valid confession statement that can be produced in court if needed.

Do everything to secure what you need (Kids, business affiliation, bank account etc.) most.

Then talk of D if required.

Your MIL's email was all about concern for her daughter. Nothing for you. You still do not have the "how are you doing?" message from her family.

Although I will say that your wife was doing what she thought you wanted when she suggested her mother contact you, all it does is show you that you are the bad guy in their eyes.

Did your wife ever tell her sister the entire truth?

You know, while it's cathartic and lots of fun to portray the MIL as some shrill, elitist witch, the annoying truth is that MIL actually grew up in poverty, is deeply religious, and is one of the most charitable people I've ever met. In short, she's a good person.

While I think some of ohfor's translations are accurate, the "I have never liked you" one especially isn't true. In fact, WW's parents were both thrilled when she started dating me, because up until that point, all of WW's previous boyfriends were 'wrong side of the tracks' kind of guys (came from abusive homes, had no life goals, no interest in higher education, etc).

Her parents would jokingly say that, when it came to choosing who to date, WW "liked to take in strays," so to speak. WW would later explain it to me that it made her feel good to be with a guy where she was, without-doubt, the best thing going in his life. But, I was different, and everyone in her family recognized that fact.

When MIL says that she never "got" me, she's referring to the fact that she and I were basically unable to have real, substantial conversations. My preferred mode of communication is self-deprecatory and sarcastic. MIL's is overly-earnest. In short, all of our conversations tended to be short and awkward (if polite).

I *do* think that MIL and FIL likely felt that WW could do better than me. (After all, what parents are happy to hear that their daughter wants to marry a comedy writer?) But, they likewise knew for certain that she could also do much, much worse.

I think for any reasonably good person that having a wayward child must be a really hard thing to process. I'd personally give any wayward parent the benefit of the doubt with regards to most communication.

The bottom line: The betrayal is within the marriage; the in-laws, the periphery.

Ohfor has given good interpretations but points from MIL all could of been interpreted differently.

I can look at this from many different viewpoints: A husband, an SIL and as a parent.

If my daughter had done what your WW did I would probably be disappointed but if I am being Honest I would probably try to lay some blame on the husband as well as it would be tough for me to solely blame my child. I know intellectually she’s to blame for the A, no matter the state of the M before it, but I could see me trying to tie it to issues in The marriage.

However I would see me being concerned for my SIL, especially if I thought him to be a good guy, but I would be careful what I would say, because it’s my daughter that I will be with forever, and it this point it would be unclear whether or not he would be in my life forever.

I recently had a situation where my wife’s sister and husband were having problems. The husband asked to talk to me about it because he wasn’t close to his family. After some initial Conversations I told him I could not go further without permission from his wife as she was my wife’s sister. Things were deteriorating and she said she was not comfortable with it so I cut contact. They later divorced.

But if I had overstepped my bounds I would have “paid” for it in my relationship with my Sister in law. In asking her how I should communicate with him I kept the peace within my family. She appreciated the approach.

So it’s a tough spot for in laws to be in. I wish your WW had asked them to show you concern on her own. But I give her credit for approaching it with them when you showed disappointment. She can’t control their execution. And I agree it wasn’t the best attempt.

I have a good relationship with my in laws. But about a year ago I felt they had overstepped their bounds on an issue that I was handling and it really hurt me. I know they felt bad about it. And I know they care about me. “I’m Sorry” is not really in their vocabulary like it is in mine. My wife told me I probably wouldn’t hear those words but would get their meaning in their actions. They really went out of their way to do things for me. They always did, but they ramped it up for a while to sort of “make it up” to me. I know my wife was talking them thru this.

I stayed aloof for a while, and missed a family event because the pain of it was too raw at that time, but over time I felt their recognition and appreciation for what I do for the family and forgave them. I know the issue wasn’t caused by my wife like in your case, but I appreciated the work she did to defend me to her parents during this time.

Anyway, i know you are a smart and thoughtful guy and don’t need me to tell you what to think. Just thought these stories might help.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 1:42 PM, November 1st (Wednesday)]

Listen, I'm not letting the WW's family thing affect me, really. They're on the other side of the country and have no real sway in may day-to-day life. As MidnightRun correctly put it, they're in the periphery.

Of much bigger concern to me is that whole self-respect thing. I truly don't see how I would ever be able to have a life or future with WW and still be able to respect myself. I've tried explaining this to WW several times over the last few weeks, but she is mostly unable (or unwilling) to hear it. Instead, she always turns it around to an insult directed towards her, and then gets defensive.

(ie- "If you can't respect yourself for even thinking about reconciliation, then what does that say about what you really think of me?")

“What it says about you is that you are someone capable of breaking my heart with Infidelity and I don’t know how to give my heart back to someone that is capable of hurting me like that”.

With that said Lux, I want you to know that I view someone who easily rug sweeps and goes into false R as very weak.

But I see someone who will take a truly remorseful WS and works it with them, really works with a committed WS, on building a new marriage with proper boundaries, as a truly strong person. As strong as someone who realizes the A is a deal breaker and chooses D.

Personally I think your WW is truly remorseful. More than most we see on here.

But I think knowing you from your posts that you probably should D. Go lead separate paths to happiness. Then after a few years, if you’ve both found happiness exploring others in the world then great.

But if you both find yourselves in the same place, after some good IC work and interactions with others, and want to try again with different ground rules, give it a shot as the new people you are. It’s happened before.

The cases are rare, But you seem like if circumstances present themselves that way, that you are two people who “get it” enough to make it happen.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 3:20 PM, November 1st (Wednesday)]

Hi LJ

Thanks for the graciousness with which you responded to my post.

Now I am particularly glad that I included that preemptive apology in my post.

I know that we all come to the forum with our own perspective and often in our responses we project our own experiences.

I was certainly projecting when I wrote that post. I was angry with your MIL.  I felt hurt by what she wrote to you.  I know it is crazy.  It was not written to me. But the thing is, I have felt the pain of an experience close to yours so I felt for you when I read the message as you shared.

The interesting thing for me is, this time it was that your experience was different to what mine was.

In my case, had MIL still been alive on D Day  (I found out about the A as a result of MIL 's illness and death ) I have no doubt that she would have been my strongest supporter.  I have a suspicion that she would have been the one to kick WW out and have the locks changed.  She would have been the one to tell me that for me an attempt at R for a year would be lunacy.

We had a brilliant relationship.  We enjoyed each other’s company but also,  through FIL's alcoholism, then his death.  Then dealing with the estate, I  was her rock.

FIL effectively left her destitute but she knew that she had nothing to fear.  She was assured of my love and support.

It was because the message that you were sent did not match the image of what I believe my MIL would have sent me, that I felt your MIL had let you down.

Thanks for the extra info. It helps us piece the picture together and helps with our understanding.

I am sure that you know that we all learn a little more from each new story and use it in our own healing and rebuilding.

Thanks again

Oh and LJ

Your bit about;

I truly don't see how I would ever be able to have a life or future with WW and still be able to respect myself

It was precisely when I realised that that I recognised that D was the best path for me.

If that is you then there is nothing wrong with that

I've tried explaining this to WW several times over the last few weeks, but she is mostly unable (or unwilling) to hear it. Instead, she always turns it around to an insult directed towards her, and then gets defensive.

(ie- "If you can't respect yourself for even thinking about reconciliation, then what does that say about what you really think of me?")

Still making it all about her. You can do so much better.

She has not accepted that your answer to her is your going to end the marriage and this is the reason why. She doesn't want that. I really do understand that. She really should follow the advice she is being given in the wayward sections. The more she lets go of the outcome the better she will be able to focus on herself.

I think there might come a time where having a amicable split is not possible. You might just have to proceed with the divorce and hope she doesn't fight you on it.

I know she is working hard but I think your right. Its just to difficult to let yourself down. I stayed with my serial cheating xW for ten years. Its been ten years since and it still haunts me. I still feel like a idiot and that I let my children down.

Keep working on you.

C

Of much bigger concern to me is that whole self-respect thing. I truly don't see how I would ever be able to have a life or future with WW and still be able to respect myself.

It's not easy, I'll tell you that much. I'm not sure if it's possible in the way that you are considering it. There is a certain amount of give in order to make R work. It isn't fair that you have to check your self-respect at the door.

What is your self-respect worth to you? It might be hard to look at it this way, but this is a pro vs con decision now. What do you gain by leaving? What do you lose? Is what you might gain in reconciliation worth what you might lose in self-respect? Personally, I found a lot of self-respect in staying and trying to work it out with my WW, regardless of where I ended up. I also found a lot when I decided to stand up for myself and demand the truth. I found even more when I said enough and told her I wanted a divorce. For me, self-respect was more about my personal growth, and subsequently the way I have learned that I deserve to be treated. I didn't have a finite amount of self-respect and lost some never to return. I hope the world doesn't work like that.

In addition to that, when you are looking for a new partner (if that's what you do), you are taking on all of the unknown variables in their life. Have they cheated before? Is that OK? If it is, why not with CSCE? What baggage is OK? It's a complicated issue. She will never again not be the person that betrayed you, but that doesn't have to be the death of things.

(ie- "If you can't respect yourself for even thinking about reconciliation, then what does that say about what you really think of me?")

That says EVERYTHING about how she feels about herself. If she has said that recently, she's still defensive. She's probably fighting with herself a lot. I am certain that she is dealing with an unbearable amount of self-loathing and shame. Really deep, damaging shame. I have posted a lot in her thread, and while I won't engage in cross-talk, I will give you my impression of her as a W.

She doesn't get it yet. Not all the way. I noted early on that she seems to have trouble integrating her behavior with her self-image, and it still persists. She wants to view these things as mistakes, or anomalies in a life of authenticity. They aren't. She has some profound underlying issues that she needs to deal with, and you can't help her with that. I hope that she does the work that she needs, because I sincerely think that she hates a lot of what she is.

On the positive side, I think that she gets that she doesn't get it. She seems motivated to get underneath of all this to figure out where she went wrong. I can't tell you where that is. I can't tell you how long this will take, or if she will ever be a safe partner. Just my two cents.

One additional note... I am not sure if you've seen the show Black Mirror. (SPOILERS BELOW FROM LIKE 2013) The show deals mostly with the moral and ethical implications of technology. There is an episode in which a guy catches his wife having had an affair previously by using a technology that records everything that you see and hear, and stores it. You can replay past events in your life, like watching on on a TV. He eventually determines that his son is not his, but is a product of the affair, and he becomes unglued. The end of the show shows him, clearly alone, and without his wife and the child that he thought was his. He's using his implant to replay all of the positive memories from their life together, in sharp contrast with the cold and lonely place he is in now.

Now, you can't go back and unlearn about the affair. Even if you could, I wouldn't want you to. The point that I am trying to make is that while he knew the truth, it certainly didn't make his life better.

The question you need to answer for yourself is: Does the value of your self-respect kept outweigh what you'd lose if you D?

[This message edited by xhz700 at 4:50 PM, November 1st (Wednesday)]

when you are looking for a new partner (if that's what you do), you are taking on all of the unknown variables in their life. Have they cheated before? Is that OK? If it is, why not with CSCE? What baggage is OK? It's a complicated issue.

You know, I've thought about this before. The truth is, if I met a new girl and she told me that she previously cheated on her boyfriend/husband/fiancee/whatever, but she's taken steps to work on her issues and is a different person now, I really don't think that I would hold it against her.

So, why do I still hold it against WW? Because it's personal.