SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

My WW stands to lose health coverage in our divorce. Nothing I can do about that. She has a college degree and may have to give up her independent contractor lifestyle to find a job with benefits. She’s also offered to not seek alimony. We will see if she sticks with that. In any case I consider this a meaningful act on her part if she follows thru.

And if that has meaning to you, and shows remorse, then that is great. There is nothing wrong with that as recompense. My whole point is recompense can look different ways, and unwillingness for one thing over another doesn't aways mean lack of remorse in every situation. And, willingness to do certain things doesn't always mean remorse either. Remorse is shown in all ways because it doesn't change, it's always there. Even when your husband cheats back.

We will do a 50/50 split. I think that seems like what's fair in my situation.

So, all I am trying to get across is that these rules that this demonstrates levels of remorse or not, there is no hard fast answer. People have to do what works for them. If your spouse is remorseful, they will display that in ways that are meaningful to you.

I do think that’s fair in your situation and that is exactly my point. Favorable terms are unnecessary in a MH situation. He cancelled it out.

I agree there’s no hard and fast answer but some tangible, real, authentic and consistent recompense/restitution of some kind is in order.

I pointed out earlier this will differ in every situation — but it makes no sense to rule out labor, financial or other types of restitution out of hand.

It’s taught me I am worthy

Could you say more about this? The cost seems incredibly high.

It’s taught me I am worthy

Could you say more about this? The cost seems incredibly high.

Thumos,

I honestly wouldn't even know where to begin. I have written literally hundreds of essays (I wouldn't know what else to call them) on this site about what character issues I had that allowed me to make these terrible decisions. I think on most affairs you can boil it down to a few truths that are nearly universal.

One of those truths is waywards have terrible relationships with themselves. They do not love themselves. They do not respect themselves. They do not have a sense of their own worth, they get their worth exclusively from other people in the roles they fill to them. If you love and respect yourself, you love and respect others. If you have your own worth, you don't have to hustle to keep getting it from others. Waywards show typically one of two conditions:

1. They are overly selfless

2. They are overly selfish

In both cases, there are many issues with boundaries and the person is always looking to fill a void. (Outside of the presence of a personality disorder this is a self worth issue)

I personally was the first type. I gave and gave and gave until I had nothing left. And the more you give the less you are seen sometimes. The less you are seen the less payoff you get from that behavior. It's a house of cards. I felt unloved, unseen, and unappreciated. Not a reason to cheat. But if I hadn't always been seeking that to fill my self worth I probably wouldn't have subconsciously chosen to try and get that from someone else. And, I say subconsciously because I didn't think "hey I know what I will do!" Doesn't make a thing I did right, but there is a difference between making excuses and explaining where I was.

I would further say that doing it did not go against my integrity, if I could bend the rules to suit me. I think that's also a universal factor that has to be present in affairs.

So, yes, in essence should I have been all these things prior to the A? Of course. I should have been a better person. But, I was not. Facing that after spending most of my life thinking I was a model wife, employee, friend, parent, etc. was probably the most devastating thing I could face. It was as if my identity was stripped, which I can't tell you how painful that is. But, facing that and realizing that I was none of the things I thought I was, I had to really build my self worth on new things. I rebuilt it on integrity, honesty, on living more wholeheartedly and more purely. On doing things out of love rather than trying to get something for myself. I was getting all my self worth from other people. From my kids, from my husband, from fulfilling the roles I had the way I had pictured them instead of from who I really was.

There is a reckoning here that occurred that changed every single thing. My husband can choose if that's important to him or not. I can't sit and tell you any of this makes it better with me than with someone else, he will have to decide that. But, for me, I am better off with this me. And, this me was prepared to be a far better, more genuine, and steadfast partner. I would say this may actually give me more value in some ways than others might be able to offer him, but he has to decide this. But at the same time it also makes me a partner who shows up in all ways which might be negative to him (meaning expressing distaste, preferences, saying no, etc) and that may not be his jam. He might like it better when I deferred mostly to him and acted like a door mat. When I waited on everyone hand and foot and put myself dead last always. It might even be what he saw in the other woman - her malleable nature. So, in addition to the facts of my infidelity, he may just want someone who is easier now. And, that's going to have to be okay with me.

I have to think the path I am on is genuinely best for me and for others who want to be in my life. I can be my own North Star in that way. I want him, and our marriage, very much. I lost control over that a long time ago through my own decisions. But, I can't go back to being that other person who I was without the self worth either just because that might suit him better. The person who is showing up is safe. The other constructs were faulty and not safe.

So, high prices for that self worth, yes. I wish I would have gotten here a completely different way. I have no control over that now.

[This message edited by hikingout at 1:37 PM, November 17th (Tuesday)]

You've then leveled up to being exactly what you were supposed to be in the first place.

Do you think that VADM Stockdale would have been the person he was if he hadn't managed to get shot down and enjoyed years as a POW? Or anybody after a close brush with death? Caused by themselves or other?

Ever met someone who killed someone drunk driving, and completely changed their life?

Another saying in the military, in order to get a Medal of Honor someone has to screw up.

As a BS you have a right to demand more than what they could have been otherwise.

Ever met someone who killed someone drunk driving, and completely changed their life?

Yes. He left a party drunk despite a number of friends arguing with him about driving drunk. He drove he and his girlfriend into a tree at high speed and she died. He was in the hospital for a time and carried some scars afterwards. The guilt and remorse and pain he experienced was profound. He never drank again and dedicated a lot of time working with anti-drunk driving organizations. He did a lot of good afterwards.

He became a man who would never drink and drive again. He did a lot of good sharing his experience and dissuading others from making the same mistake.

The price was the life of his girlfriend and the trauma her family and friends experienced over her loss.

At the end of the day, though, he leveled up to where those who were trying to take his keys already were, plus some charity work, and his girlfriend is dead.

He did the right things afterwards and I don't take that away from him. What he cannot do is be amazing enough to take the pain away from his girlfriend's family and his epiphany was never worth the price they paid.

I'm saying, someone doesn't have to die for you to know that driving drunk is dangerous.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 1:51 PM, November 17th (Tuesday)]

I have to think the path I am on is genuinely best for me and for others who want to be in my life. I can be my own North Star in that way. I want him, and our marriage, very much. I lost control over that a long time ago through my own decisions. But, I can't go back to being that other person who I was without the self worth either just because that might suit him better. The person who is showing up is safe. The other constructs were faulty and not safe.

In your case, as with my friend who drove drunk with his girlfriend...you'll probably be less likely than most to cheat and I'd feel absolutely safe getting in the car with that guy.

And someone doesn’t have to be betrayed and families wrecked for someone to be a safe partner who won’t commit adultery.

And someone doesn’t have to be betrayed and families wrecked for someone to be a safe partner who won’t commit adultery.

I didn't say that anyway. I really have to stop wasting my time responding to you.

...and his epiphany was never worth the price they paid.

Of course not.

I stood next to my father in court as he was sentenced for a felony death by motor vehicle charge, with the victim's family on the other side of the aisle, so I've seen it up close.

I'd flip it around. His epiphany is the cost demanded by the girlfriend's family and society. And by himself for himself, really.

Same for infidelity. Demand for them to become the person they wouldn't have otherwise, with the knowledge they never should have gained in the first place.

didn't say that anyway. I really have to stop wasting my time responding to you.

I was echoing what DevastatedDee said and piggybacking off her comment - not yours.

This...

I'm saying, someone doesn't have to die for you to know that driving drunk is dangerous.

Led to this...

And someone doesn’t have to be betrayed and families wrecked for someone to be a safe partner who won’t commit adultery.

[This message edited by Thumos at 2:41 PM, November 17th (Tuesday)]

I do not think there is any form of repayment that is adequate. If you want to stay married, you just have to live with it, the injustice, the unfairness.

The cheater got over on you. This drives some people nuts. Sticks in their craw.

Others can get past it or bury it pretty deep such that it does not cause enough resentment to ruin everything going forward.

I think some of us, me included, that feel they can never let it go, may have just never seen any true remorse or suffering by the cheater. So, we have no real concept of what it would be like to have an empathetic, remorseful cheater spouse.

I am pretty sure that if my XW ever really owned what she did and tried to understand the damage, and we had stayed together, after my initial anger, I would forgive and not bring it up,

I have let go of getting even. I pity her. I am nice to her, but now that the kids are grown, rarely communicate with her.

There was some good that came out of being married to her, narcissism notwithstanding. I have great kids.

I agree, Stringer. There is no repayment that creates complete justice. It's more a product of two people moving on together with their eyes wide open. In cases where there was remorse, it may feel less like someone got one over on you, but it depends on what the two people involved decide to think about their own situation. WS can influence that sometimes by trying their best but it will never weigh enough. It takes both people to decide.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:11 PM, November 17th (Tuesday)]

I don't disagree with either of you, but this is once again where I think the truth and reconciliation model can help. Because otherwise I think there's a danger of drifing into an "I'm ok, you're Ok" ethic that I've seen WS's express elsewhere (not saying you are doing that, HO).

That model includes a restitution component, and Desmond Tutu has written about it more eloquently than I can. The model wasn't looking for "justice" per se. The point isn't that "repayment" in any form is adequate. Of course not. That isn't the goal of restitution when deployed in the truth & reconciliation model either. You can't "make up" for years of apartheid, false imprisonment, torture, extrajudicial killings and other human rights violations just by telling the truth and cutting a check.

I've found a good passage from Tutu that explains it better and I'll post it later.

But if we ruled out the idea of restitution altogether, then what would be the point of acts of service by a remorseful WS, or consistently raising the bar by being a better spouse than before D-Day, or offering a BH the salve of passionate sex?

None of these things would have any utility either, I'd have to say.

And this is why I cautioned earlier that a monetary redress was only one example, and need not be the focus -- but that because money actually does represent time & energy, repayment in a financial form shouldn't be automatically ruled out. It is, in essence, repaying a person in measurable units of compressed time & energy.

That seems very meaningful.

My WW and I racked up some credit card debt because of a flurry of trips and counseling bills and the like. I went along with this -- but let's be honest I was in the midst of a pretty significant trauma stupor, and I admit I now resent this debt load as being an unnecessary burden which can be traced back to my WW's poor choices. Paying this off and being debt free would be quite meaningful to me. Just as an example.

Now let's take the idea of a BS who just can't "get past it." This always drives me a little nuts when I read it (and I can't lie).

Nevertheless, there may be something genetic in some of us regarding Haidt's moral emotions and the sanctity/degradation continuum. Haidt has alluded to this, but of course no hard evidence yet.

I'm also an INFP (about 4 percent of adults) and our moral framework tends to be incredibly robust and well thought-through.

If you combine a genetic propensity for revulsion on the sanctity/degradation continuum and for anger on the betrayal/loyalty continuum (both a part of Haidt's research) along with an INFP personality type, it just may be there's some truth to "this may be just a deal breaker for you."

It's been painful for me to realize this, but I'm starting to get it.

On the issue of a remorseful WS vs not, I have to say it's more complex than a binary choice. My WW is in many ways remorseful. I can know that she deeply regrets what she did, and is horrified by the fallout. I've turned into a complete slob since DDAY and although I do my fair share of household tasks and always have (including almost all of the cooking, and gourmet quality at that) she has kept the household running. I just haven't had the desire or will to really do it. That's a pre and post DDAY contrast I do find meaningful.

That said, contra to that, as I've been through in some detail ad nauseam here on SI over the past year, the probability of her not being truthful and transparent with me is incredibly high. Much higher odds than that she's telling me the whole truth.

When you combine this perceived lack of authenticity with compound factors such as the high degree of gaslighting, a double betrayal, in our home, the invoked in-home separation from me, and all the gobsmacking hurtful things said afterward, it's just a lot. Really, a lot.

There was some good that came out of being married to her, narcissism notwithstanding. I have great kids.

One thing I'm really glad I stuck to my guns on the past four years was in not brooking any rewriting of the history of the marriage. I would not let my WW tarnish the memories I had of a good marriage, and I told my WW so. Eventually she stopped the gambit and started to express her grief that in fact I was correct and that we had a good marriage that she took for granted. I told her recently when a picture popped up on my Facebook feed of our two kids in younger years that I cherish the first 20 years of our marriage before her affair. And I'm nice to her all the time, sometimes I worry I'm too nice in the wake of everything.

I say all that, because I want to make it clear I'm not sitting around in a court wig and crown frowning sternly and ready to pass sentence. In launching this thread, I hoped to engage in a deeper conversation about the really troubling nature of infidelity and the abusive components that seem inescapable to me. As well, I really do think the truth and reconciliation model as promulgated by Tutu has the best framework for dealing with these situations (that's just my opinion). And by that I mean if a WS is genuinely contrite, reconciliation under this model can include amicable divorce and can give a BS peace and some healing in that light as well.

[This message edited by Thumos at 5:14 PM, November 17th (Tuesday)]

Yeah, I would be pissed as hell, too. Our WW did not value us. And, who really knows if your wife is remorseful for hurting you or just because she faces consequences.

Tough part for you, Thumos, might be seeing her, down the line, ostensibly happy with some other guy. That was hard for me.

But, i think this really is a dealbreaker for you, so not much of a choice. I doubt your wife, having been capable of such a betrayal and subsequent behavior, is introspective enough to understand all this Haidt stuff.

I'm also an INFP (about 4 percent of adults) and our moral framework tends to be incredibly robust and well thought-through.

If you combine a genetic propensity for revulsion on the sanctity/degradation continuum and for anger on the betrayal/loyalty continuum (both a part of Haidt's research) along with an INFP personality type, it just may be there's some truth to "this may be just a deal breaker for you."

I believe I was INTP and now you're gonna have me googling stuff about it.

Tough part for you, Thumos, might be seeing her, down the line, ostensibly happy with some other guy. That was hard for me.

I do think that's a possibility and I do think that will be tough.

My consolation would be three-fold:

1. There will be knowing how untenable it would be to remain in an empty nest situation with someone who refuses truth and transparency. It would continue to remain an intimacy hole at the heart of any reconciliation attempt and I fear we'd just circle the drain with that. I can't imagine the deadened, oppressive atmosphere of that, and coming back here four years from now filled with regret I stayed.

2. I will know that she never truly fixed herself. She couldn't go the extra mile, so as happy as she and her new partner might appear, lurking the background will be a shadow over that and a poor sap who is potentially a betrayed husband in the waiting.

3. Hopefully by then I will have found a rewarding relationship with another woman who would never do something like this to me.

I believe I was INTP and now you're gonna have me googling stuff about it.

I cycle back and forth between...

INFP/ENFP

INFP/INTP

etc.

I believe I was INTP and now you're gonna have me googling stuff about it.

Ha, I quoted myself. Yeah, you just might be onto something there. I'm a massive nerd.

I couldn't ever value the "but we might be happy again" because I looked at the whole situation and extrapolated the future out logically and saw that no matter how much I loved him, staying didn't make sense and time would kill the love. This situation was untenable and I could stick around waiting for it to be something I could live with, or I could take the easy route and jettison this relationship knowing that I would not love him forever and that there were so many others out there that weren't addicts and hadn't cheated on me. Rationality trumped emotion for me.

Yeah, that was, pretty much, the calculus for me, too, Thumos.