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If the woman is a SAHW, and there are children, there aren't a lot of options sometimes in offering a better deal.

You mean if the SAHW was the WW or BW? Just to clarify.

Another way of viewing what happens in R is that the very best the BS can get is the partner the WS was always supposed to be.

I think a graph of the M that goes through As and R would be a line that goes up and down through life, that goes way down during A(s) and recovery, that climbs slowly and stabilizes at a level higher than the pre-R M.

Then, if one were to draw a line backward from the R line to cover the whole M, we would see a large area between that line and the line of the actual pre-A M. That is what was lost. It can't be restored, in this life, at least.

I think the question of restoration is limited to R. If one chooses D, one cuts the WS out of of one's life. The best one can hope for is a D free of contention - but even if there is conflict, my understanding is that freeing oneself from the WS is the goal of the D decision.

But, of course, I haven't gone through D. Is my understanding incomplete?

The money itself would not have healed me. But it certainly would have gone a long way toward paying for all of my out of pocket therapy expenses for a trauma specialist, for example, and that has certainly helped with my healing.

Exactly. No single act or self sacrifice by a WS in and of itself is going to heal the BS. But it doesn’t hurt and does help. Why we would preclude money or additional labor from these actions and sacrifices is puzzling to me. Seems that they should on the table along with just about everything else.

As for a SAHM who decided to cheat, that seems like an axiomatic situation in terms of the question of offering a favorable divorce to the BH. It’s the least she can do in any situation, and if she stands to be worse off financially because of unloving, abusive actions she chose to take, well that seems like her burden to carry, not the BH’s.

EDIT TO ADD: and what use are the gestures and actions a WS takes after betrayal if there is not some real self sacrifice involved? Just saying they will do better? Frankly who cares. It’s cold comfort if it’s not costing the WS something. To be meaningful on any level, real sacrifice is required in my view after the abuse of infidelity. We’d say the same for any other form of abuse.

[This message edited by Thumos at 10:14 AM, November 17th (Tuesday)]

Another way of viewing what happens in R is that the very best the BS can get is the partner the WS was always supposed to be.

Exactly you’ve hit on something so important! I’ve made this point repeatedly. In reconciliation, what a BS can expect to get is what they reasonably ALREADY should have gotten absent adultery. When you’ve now added adultery into the mix and the abusive behaviors that attend it, we are asking BS’s to accept a “level set” marriage that is really only as good as what they should have had in the first place. But in the face of real and substantial toxic abuse.

I really think regardless of whether a BS decides to R, they should carefully count the cost. As HO points out, it’s a massive extension of grace. To extend it, one must see real metanoia. Without that, a BS runs the real risk of the scientifically documented “doormat effect.”

For many of us facing down the barrel of an empty nest situation, you wonder if this is as good as it gets. The answer is probably no.

[This message edited by Thumos at 12:31 PM, November 17th (Tuesday)]

The financial aspect can be very important if your family is not financially secure. If your family is living pay cheque to pay cheque and your WS is diverting essential funds to their AP. Alternatively taking time off work to spend time with their AP and not earning as much as expected.

I've also seen cases where WS spend their retirement monies to fund their affairs.

Maybe it's just me but in situations like these I'd definitely expect to be recompensed. Maybe if financially secure and the amounts didn't impact I'd reconsider.

You mean if the SAHW was the WW or BW? Just to clarify.

Well, really in either case. But, if we are talking about whether it shows they are not remorseful, that might not even have anything to do with it. They may not have a choice until time is given for the ability to make more money. Again, not in every circumstance, but children being involved makes it more complicated.

I am saying, I gave my H a considerably better deal when he drew up the papers. But, was that as much of a sacrifice for me? It was a sacrifice, but it wasn't one that basically hobbled me.

Again, this is not what SHOULD happen. You are saying it's about remorse. I could have been unremorseful and offered possibly more. In other situations in which I had no real career due to decisions we made as a couple to be home with the children, I might want to offer more because I am very remorseful but it may not be possible. There just may be nothing to really give.

Another way of viewing what happens in R is that the very best the BS can get is the partner the WS was always supposed to be.

Famous saying in flying is that exercising good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from exercising bad judgement.

Don't underestimate the learning opportunity of an affair.

The financial aspect can be very important if your family is not financially secure. If your family is living pay cheque to pay cheque and your WS is diverting essential funds to their AP. Alternatively taking time off work to spend time with their AP and not earning as much as expected.

I've also seen cases where WS spend their retirement monies to fund their affairs.

Maybe it's just me but in situations like these I'd definitely expect to be recompensed. Maybe if financially secure and the amounts didn't impact I'd reconsider

In these cases the person didn't just commit adultery, they committed financial infidelity. So, to me, what you are saying only makes sense.

I have been looking over everything since discovery of my husbands, and I can't find where he even bought her a meal.

However, fun fact, he never has purchased a diamond for me because I never wanted one. I have a heirloom, but he has never bought me one piece of expensive jewelry in all our decades together.

So, if I found he bought her something along those lines, I am not sure what I would want. The reason I don't have any expensive jewelry is really because it's never been important to me. And, if he bought her something, I am not really sure what that would have in terms of meaning to me. I guess I would assume that he did something that meant something to her.

There is very little meaning in material stuff to me. I can buy my own shit. So, I just might not be on this wavelength.

And, we are MH, so maybe that could be the only reason I want two things:

1. I want him to work on healing himself.

2. I want him to be able to show me he truly wants this marriage and wants it with me.

I really don't care about anything else. But, that's just me I guess.

Don't underestimate the learning opportunity of an affair.

100 agree. I think it's because I did that. I 100 percent understand it's value.

[This message edited by hikingout at 11:09 AM, November 17th (Tuesday)]

They may not have a choice until time is given for the ability to make more money. Again, not in every circumstance, but children being involved makes it more complicated.

But they did have a choice. In the case of a WW, no one forced a SAHM to transgress, cross the Rubicon, betray her husband and abuse him by gaslighting him, trickle truth him and blameshift onto him. For argument’s sake those are all willful actions in the face of potential financial hardship. Why give a pass when push comes to shove?

Don't underestimate the learning opportunity of an affair.

Learning for? Any possible learning could have easily been had without killing a good marriage, betraying another human being and abusing them.

Learning for? Any possible learning could have easily been had without killing a good marriage, betraying another human being and abusing them.

I mean no offense to anyone, but isn't that like learning what you already knew? Everyone who cheats knows to hide it because it's wrong. If I steal and get caught, I didn't learn that stealing is bad. I maybe decide it isn't worth the risk ever again. Best case scenario, I become a more honest person who wouldn't do it again, but I always would have known it was wrong.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 11:43 AM, November 17th (Tuesday)]

For argument’s sake those are all willful actions in the face of potential financial hardship. Why give a pass when push comes to shove?

For the sake of the kids. You might not mind your ex-WW living in a crappy apartment in a shady part of town if that's all she can afford (in fact, that might be intensely satisfying), but you presumably wouldn't want that as the half-time home of your children. Child support might cover their expenses, but standard of living is going to be tied to the financial health of the parent signing the lease.

For the sake of the kids. You might not mind your ex-WW living in a crappy apartment in a shady part of town if that's all she can afford (in fact, that might be intensely satisfying), but you presumably wouldn't want that as the half-time home of your children. Child support might cover their expenses, but standard of living is going to be tied to the financial health of the parent signing the lease.

But we weren’t talking about the actual divorce. We were talking about the WW being willing to take the risk and offer it on the point of financial pain for herself — and the meaning of that.

Aside from that how many WW’s who are SAHM’s couldn’t go out and seek employment? Not very many. In a divorce both spouses will be worse off financially. I think it’s exceedingly rare that a WW will be left destitute, however. But isn’t that something she should have considered? If that’s the case shouldn’t she have honored her BH’s breadwinner status?

I think that’s part of what the Proverbs refer to when they speak of a foolish woman tearing down her house with her own hands.

My WW stands to lose health coverage in our divorce. Nothing I can do about that. She has a college degree and may have to give up her independent contractor lifestyle to find a job with benefits. She’s also offered to not seek alimony. We will see if she sticks with that. In any case I consider this a meaningful act on her part if she follows thru.

As y’all know she has a habit of saying certain things and then not following through.

[This message edited by Thumos at 11:54 AM, November 17th (Tuesday)]

Everyone who cheats knows to hide it because it's wrong. If I steal and get caught, I didn't learn that stealing is bad. I maybe decide it isn't worth the risk ever again. Best case scenario, I become a more honest person who wouldn't do it again, but I always would have known it was wrong.

Precisely so.

I mean no offense to anyone, but isn't that like learning what you already knew? Everyone who cheats knows to hide it because it's wrong. If I steal and get caught, I didn't learn that stealing is bad. I maybe decide it isn't worth the risk ever again. Best case scenario, I become a more honest person who wouldn't do it again, but I always would have known it was wrong.

^^^ This!

It reminds me of a conversation I had with my therapist early on. After I discovered even more lies (I think this was after the discovery of the escorts, something he had brought up in the past on his own and vehemently denied ever doing, hello red flag!) I asked something like, "How on earth did I end up married to such a psychopath?"

She said, "Oh he knows the difference between right and wrong, otherwise he wouldn't have lied about it. So good news, you're not married to a psychopath! Bad news, he still is a huge asshole."

Best case scenario, I become a more honest person

That right there is no small thing.

Another way of viewing what happens in R is that the very best the BS can get is the partner the WS was always supposed to be.

There is zero doubt that you learn things by going through the affair crucible that you couldn't learn any other way. Yes, it is a box full of darkness, the gift. What you do with that is up to you, but it is knowledge that can't be gained in any other way, and it can absolutely make you a stronger, better person that you could have been otherwise. Or not. There's a choice to be made.

I sure know some things on a level that reading about them could never impart.

That right there is no small thing.

Agreed. It isn't recompense to the BS, though. You've then leveled up to being exactly what you were supposed to be in the first place. You're at ground zero of what is acceptable.

And in achieving ground zero of simple humanity you’ve injured lots of other people in the process. Not much of a trade off for learning what you already knew (which seems more like an oxymoron the more we consider it).

The financial aspect can be very important if your family is not financially secure. If your family is living pay cheque to pay cheque and your WS is diverting essential funds to their AP. Alternatively taking time off work to spend time with their AP and not earning as much as expected.

I've also seen cases where WS spend their retirement monies to fund their affairs.

Maybe it's just me but in situations like these I'd definitely expect to be recompensed. Maybe if financially secure and the amounts didn't impact I'd reconsider

I should have my XWS sign over the house. Makes me so angry! He helped pay MOW's rent for 3 years because I made him fire her after D-Day, she was his employee.

But they did have a choice. In the case of a WW, no one forced a SAHM to transgress, cross the Rubicon, betray her husband and abuse him by gaslighting him, trickle truth him and blameshift onto him. For argument’s sake those are all willful actions in the face of potential financial hardship. Why give a pass when push comes to shove?

These are all hypotheticals, obviously. My point is willingness to do this may have little to do with degree of remorse. As I have stated I could be very generous in my situation, and still not be remorseful. If I had chosen a path where my husband and I agreed that I would take a hit to my career path to stay with children because they were OUR values, then that is a risk we both took together in the aspect that the marriage didn't work out in some way. I would think that my contributions to the marriage as a whole should be considered especially in the ability to be able to feed and clothe our children. That doesn't even mean it's equitable, does it? That may still allow the other person to leave with more. It may not.

But we weren’t talking about the actual divorce. We were talking about the WW being willing to take the risk and offer it on the point of financial pain for herself — and the meaning of that.

Agreeing to something on paper but not carrying it through? Doesn't sound likely or smart.

I mean no offense to anyone, but isn't that like learning what you already knew? Everyone who cheats knows to hide it because it's wrong. If I steal and get caught, I didn't learn that stealing is bad. I maybe decide it isn't worth the risk ever again. Best case scenario, I become a more honest person who wouldn't do it again, but I always would have known it was wrong.

I didn't learn through having an affair that affairs are wrong, or not to cheat on my spouse. Of course I knew those things.

What I did learn expanded me in a way that I don't think some of you get right now. And, that's okay. It's made me more patient, more humble, more compassionate, more reliable, better at communications, better at conflict, self-awareness, loyalty, genuinely understanding the power of marriage and family in a much greater way. It's taught me to be mindful, thankful, to be responsible for my happiness, to be vigilant, and present. It's taught me exactly what I want in life with a clarity I never had before. It's taught me how to be married properly, how deep sacrifice and effort can pay off in ways that I never saw before. It's taught me I am worthy, I have value, intrinsically. It's taught me to persevere, to help others. It's given me a way I can deeply relate to others and their pain. I learned that my perfectionism was a way of hiding who I am. Its taught me sometimes when you break something it never gets right again no matter how hard you try.

It's taught me to have a better relationship with myself, and it's changed my self talk, my outlook on life, and has made me aware of thought patterns that are not helpful.

And, it's still teaching me. My husband would have said I was a good wife before, so did he get anything better out of this? I don't know the answer to that, maybe not because now he's kind of thrown it away.

But, there is a definite minimization happening here in what happens in the work that people can do. How much change can come from pain.

If my husband does half of what I did, and does it well, and can convince me he loves me, I will take that chance. But, I know what it looks like so it's something he will not be able to fake. Whether he does it or not, remains to be seen. But, I would take that over any material good ever. We are going to redraw the divorce papers I tore up. We will do a 50/50 split. I think that seems like what's fair in my situation.

So, all I am trying to get across is that these rules that this demonstrates levels of remorse or not, there is no hard fast answer. People have to do what works for them. If your spouse is remorseful, they will display that in ways that are meaningful to you.

Too many people on this site come back or are here and the emphasis is on the relationship. And, yes, the WS needs to recompense for that as well. But, if your WS doesn't build themselves again from the ground up then of course you should walk away. But, if they do, I think you will know it's value.

[This message edited by hikingout at 12:41 PM, November 17th (Tuesday)]