SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

This came up in a discussion and some people found it helpful. So I'm posting it here. If it's helpful to you, great. If not, disregard. Otherwise, I'm interested in all perspectives on it:

1. Adultery is emotional and mental abuse (we see it said all the time "it's not about you" but of course it is; if it weren't about you, then we should all be able to say adultery is just innocent experimentation without intent to harm -- actually some people do say that, and others come perilously close, such as Esther Perel). We know that adultery once revealed causes physical and emotional and mental shock to the betrayed. We know the betrayed's physical mind is altered. We know PTSD is common, if not expected in due course.

2. Adultery is also physical abuse. We know the emotional pain is lived out in the body and can very often have dire physical health consequences. It also involves putting a faithful partner at risk for life threatening and life changing disease -- and even when disease hasn’t been transmitted, the genital micro biome has been permanently altered. A faithful spouse has been forced against his/her will and without his/her consent to participate in a threesome/foursome/moresome. That's essentially rape.

3. In almost every other case of abuse toward a spouse (usually abuse against a woman) divorce is recommended (rarely if ever is reconciliation recommended, and only after intensive therapy and work by the abusive spouse).

Often abused women will say they love their husbands and this is likely true. Yet it’s also true that a physically abused woman shouldn’t remain married to a husband (even if she loves him) when he punches her in the face.

The love for the abusive spouse and the need for divorce are always kept separate in most discussions, and rightfully so.

Yet it seems it’s only in the case of the particular form of abuse called adultery that we seem to get confused on this point.

Of course you love your adulterous spouse, or at least most faithful spouses do. Of course you do!

Most faithful spouses love unfaithful spouses.

That’s why they are faithful and it’s part and parcel (practically speaking) to being a betrayed spouse. Being a faithful, loyal spouse implies love, because love is a verb. We are what we repeatedly do.

Faithfulness and loyalty also imply empathy as well as the capacity for a relatively high level of executive functions in the brain.

But, and this is a key point, loving an unfaithful spouse is almost immaterial to the discussion.

Why so?

Imagine a website called “Surviving Rageaholics” or “Surviving Attempted Murder” or “Surviving Intentional Thievery of Your Home” or “Surviving Being Punched in the Face by Your Husband”

Reconciliation after a woman was punched in the face by an abusive husband would only be recommended with extreme, extreme caution. And I would warrant most therapists would be very hesitant to recommend it, especially right after an abused spouse "just found out" they'd been punched in the face.

Therapists would say something like “I understand you love your husband and that’s good because it means you are an empathetic person, but the love you feel for him is one thing and his abusive nature and the domestic violence he subjected you to is another thing. Let’s not get them confused.”

They would also recommend the abused spouse not get forgiveness and reconciliation confused or conflated.

And even if they thought reconciliation was a possibility, they would put major caveats around a possible reconciliation attempt -- such as “if your abusive husband is visiting the ‘Surviving Being Punched in the Face’ website and policing your threads and trying to control you on that, it doesn’t look like he is remorseful or really trying to work on his abusive tendencies. It may be you need to separate and get yourself to safety.”

Would a therapist say “oh but he only punched you in the face once” or “oh but he punched you in the face when you yelled at him” or “oh but he punched you in the face when you were asleep and you only realized it weeks later when he told you about it” or “oh he punched you in the face repeatedly for (months, years, etc) but he seems so contrite now”?

Some therapists might, and we'd say those are really bad therapists.

What would the recommendations be for a spouse on such a website? What do you think most people on such a site would be recommending to a woman whose husband had deliberately punched her in the face?

More bluntly speaking, adultery is on the level of a type of rape, taking away a faithful spouse’s autonomy and agency over their own body.

It is at the very least as bad as punching a spouse in the face, and actually a lot worse. I’m sure we can all agree on that.

Draw your own conclusions from this very logical pathway I’ve laid out.

[This message edited by Thumos at 4:48 PM, October 2nd (Friday)]

It feels like you're suggesting R should be a rare option in the case of infidelity. I would have jumped at the chance but, alas, my WH showed no remorse for punching me in the face. He just didn't like being caught doing it.

Adultery is abuse there are no if's and's about it. My STBX gave me 2 STDs while we were in False R. I would love for someone to explain how this is NOT abuse.

I mentally went through these steps when I left my marriage, for all of the reasons listed.

But that is ME and MY ex marriage. We all make our own choices to leave or stay and sometimes those choices don't make sense to people. For me, staying in the marriage was far more harmful to myself and the children than walking away was.

That is how my brain worked and why I knew from the start that I would never be capable of R.

It feels like you're suggesting R should be a rare option in the case of infidelity.

I didn't get this takeaway at all but I think that when anyone posts anything akin to what Thumos is saying, many BSes jump to this conclusion. A criticism or different perspective offered on infidelity and R is not a call for D. It's simply an invitation to a further analytical discussion about the pitfalls and realities that are often overlooked.

I wish and hope we can change the framing of infidelity from just something people do to each other that isn't a big deal the moment it stops and is easy to get over. Part of doing that is pointing out the reality that infidelity CAUSES trauma. Trauma that takes years to work through even in the best of circumstances. When one person traumatizes the other whether intentionally or unintentionally, it's ALWAYS considered abuse. If I physically caused someone to need 2-5 years of recovery and therapy, I'd be in prison on felony charges. NOT saying that infidelity should come with a prison sentence but pointing out the double standard as to how severe the damage of infidelity is VS how people treat it.

my WH showed no remorse for punching me in the face.

Interestingly enough, Dr. Gottman found this to be true of physically abusive spouses too and was THE highest indicator that they would abuse again. Could be years down the line but if the spouse believed that the violence was not that big of a deal and their spouse was overreacting, they were very likely to get violent again. The same is true of infidelity and I wonder how many other parallels could be drawn.

Another interesting thing his research revealed is that spouses who got too old to keep up the physical abuse would continue to up the emotional abuse instead. Is that like serial cheaters who can no longer physically meet with the APs who then act out in other ways like with EAs, porn, cam girls, and lying about other things?

But that is ME and MY ex marriage.

I have a hard time imagining saying this to a woman in a violent marriage and that is the WHOLE point of Thumos's post and what he's asking us to think about. "I decided I was done being beaten over minor disagreements but that is ME and MY ex marriage. You really have to do what's best for you." Just doesn't make much sense when you say it like that. Abuse is always harmful to a person and their kids. The real question is whether the abuse can stop and the healthy marriage can begin. If not, it's always better for everyone to walk away.

[This message edited by nekonamida at 1:58 PM, September 30th (Wednesday)]

It feels like you're suggesting R should be a rare option in the case of infidelity. I would have jumped at the chance but, alas, my WH showed no remorse for punching me in the face. He just didn't like being caught doing it.

I guess I am saying in a roundabout way that reconciliation should not be "rare" but should be recommended instead with extreme caution and care, and maybe it is best achieved by the unfaithful spouse actually losing the marriage? Or maybe it should be rare given the abusive nature of adultery? In which case, filing for D would almost be an obligatory first step for truly grappling with the very toxic abuse of adultery?

I don't know. It's just very difficult for me to see how it could be otherwise after I walked through that logical pathway, and I'm looking for other perspectives on where I might have blind spots in the "proof" I've laid out.

I'm one of those people who vacillates between right brain and left brain thinking. Right now, my logical cap is on pretty tight and I'm looking at it from a clinical perspective. When I do that, I come up with the above proof and it's hard to see where I'm wrong.

EDIT TO ADD: I think adultery is such a multi-faceted problem with such far reaching consequences (including a truly deleterious impact on social capital at large) that we have to kind of turn the stone around and look at the different facets. I thought this "adultery as abuse" thought experiment would be useful for people to think about as they grapple with their own situations, and provide some clarity in thinking about it.

[This message edited by Thumos at 2:56 PM, September 30th (Wednesday)]

I guess I am saying in a roundabout way that reconciliation should not be "rare" but should be recommended instead with extreme caution and care, and maybe it is best achieved by the unfaithful spouse actually losing the marriage? In which case, filing for D would almost be an obligatory first step for truly grappling with the very toxic abuse of adultery?

I guess it depends. I do feel that I lost my marriage regardless of the lack of divorcing. There is a lot of really good deep thinking involved with your questions. I tend to recommend detachment in my interactions when talking with BS because I know that is the track my husband took with me. And he should have, he needed to be able to protect himself. I think this site overall advocates the 180, and for good reason. Do some WS need the full action of divorce? Yes, and sometimes even that doesn't change anything moving forward.

I wish and hope we can change the framing of infidelity from just something people do to each other that isn't a big deal the moment it stops and is easy to get over. Part of doing that is pointing out the reality that infidelity CAUSES trauma. Trauma that takes years to work through even in the best of circumstances. When one person traumatizes the other whether intentionally or unintentionally, it's ALWAYS considered abuse. If I physically caused someone to need 2-5 years of recovery and therapy, I'd be in prison on felony charges. NOT saying that infidelity should come with a prison sentence but pointing out the double standard as to how severe the damage of infidelity is VS how people treat it.

This is such an important point. This is why I've argued elsewhere that recompense in some form should be an obligatory part of the recovery process. We would expect recompense in other situations, why not adultery?

To my chagrin I learned post nups don't have a lot of holding power in my state. One reform might be to require post nups offered to betrayed spouses after adultery and give them the appropriate uniform legal standing that marriage certificates and other agreements have.

I also like the "truth and reconciliation" model out of South Africa, and I think far too often adultery reconciliation efforts drift into rugsweeping and subtle forms of blameshifting that fall far short of this approach.

I believe those steps are 1. Truth (the whole truth and nothing but the truth, no half truths, no minimization, no elisions) ----> 2. Remorse (real remorse, not just regret) ----> 3. Reconciliation (which is to say, some kind of understanding of new-founded mutual respect between the parties, and this does not imply some deep kind of romantic love necessarily or even staying together). ----> 4. Recompense (gifts of service and time, a post nup, favorable divorce terms, a respectful separation to give the betrayed spouse time without pressure to make a decision, financial compensation for money spent on the affair and so on).

[This message edited by Thumos at 2:47 PM, September 30th (Wednesday)]

4. Recompense (gifts of service and time, a post nup, favorable divorce terms, a respectful separation to give the betrayed spouse time without pressure to make a decision, financial compensation for money spent on the affair and so on).

I do not understand this as a step 4? If Step 4 is a divorce, then yes fair and equitable. To me, a lot of the recompense happens prior to considering and achieving R. Those of us who didn't rugsweep (and I am not taking a swipe at you Thumos), the WS really has to do a lot of heavy lifting to get everything off the ground and it has to start early and be very consistent/persistent/self motivated.

At this point, in your notes, we would be on step 3, but I don't see a new round of anything for step 4...so I guess I am just wondering if I understand.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:01 PM, September 30th (Wednesday)]

I get what you’re saying in comparing physical abuse to the abuse of infidelity. I do think betrayeds are told too often to try to work things out, especially when children are involved. Simply put, staying in a marriage with an unremorseful spouse is not healthy. Even staying with a remorseful spouse for some folks is still really damaging. For some betrayed spouses, maybe even most, divorce is the best option.

I don’t think people really take into consideration all of the trauma that comes from infidelity. In fact, I know it. The research is relatively new in addressing betrayal trauma. People don’t know what they’re asking a BS to endure in staying with a cheater. It’s so much more than “forgiving and moving on.”

All that said, I’d rather be cheated on 100 times than have a husband who physically assaults me. You’re talking all of the emotional trauma mixed in with literal physical trauma. Domestic violence steals more lives than STIs or STDs. It’s still awful, but Id never tell a battered woman I know how she feels. And the affects on the children? Not even comparable in my opinion.

I think we can become a bit self absorbed in thinking infidelity is THE worst thing that can happen to a person. I actually thought about this once. In the history of people’s existence, would my life story (focusing mostly on adultery) even make it into the top billion stories of having shitty lives? No, probably not.

Intimate betrayal is real, is awful, and only just now being considered what it is, a traumatic occurrence. I’m not taking away from that.

Also, I get the comparison to rape in a sense, but still stand by my above statement. I’d rather be cheated on than raped. Again, I’d NEVER tell a rape victim, “I sort of understand what you’re going through. My husband cheated on me.”

At this point, in your notes, we would be on step 3, but I don't see a new round of anything for step 4...so I guess I am just wondering if I understand.

I might be wrong on the sequence. I was just typing out loud. I do believe some form of recompense should be de rigueur after infidelity.

The two spouses can work together on what that might be. Nota bene, I am not suggesting financial recompense is the default, just some examples.

I think we can become a bit self absorbed in thinking infidelity is THE worst thing that can happen to a person.

This is a good point. I was thinking about it more from the recent research on betrayal trauma you alluded to.

Essentially the brain is in a vat, and can't tell the difference. As far as the brain is concerned, you were just in a terrorist attack for all intents and purposes. This is what the new research seems to be revealing and why they are now talking about "PISD."

I'm not comparing adultery to a terrorist attack. I'm saying insofar as the brain trauma goes, it might as well be something akin to that.

Also, I get the comparison to rape in a sense, but still stand by my above statement. I’d rather be cheated on than raped. Again, I’d NEVER tell a rape victim, “I sort of understand what you’re going through. My husband cheated on me.”

Also a good point. I was looking at it from a metaphysical standpoint.

[This message edited by Thumos at 3:35 PM, September 30th (Wednesday)]

Those of us who didn't rugsweep (and I am not taking a swipe at you Thumos)

I don't take it as a swipe, since I did participate in rugsweeping for awhile. But candidly, most of the WS stories I read involve some pretty epic rugsweeping at one time or another. You and BSR are among my favorite posters -- and BSR and her BH participated in some legendary rugsweeping if I'm reading their story right.

Interestingly, in the "crib notes" for JFO the bumped articles point out candidly that adultery is abuse. It just doesn't seem to get surfaced that way much elsewhere routinely. After I wrote this post the first time, I realized it offered some pretty good insights and thought it would be helpful to folks.

I don't think there is anything wrong with your analysis. But a few things to consider.

1. Injury

Emotional vs. Physical. In our culture and our system of jurisprudence, we rarely compensate pure emotional injuries but often compensate those that are purely physical. Why? Because emotional injuries are subjective and not easy to quantify while physical injuries are objective and effects are apparent. It's very easy to quantify the limitations of losing a leg, and thus, the loss is easy to compensate.

Emotional injury affects people much more qualitatively. Some people have a much easier time getting over heartbreak than others. The same way the death of a family member affects those closer to that person differently than those that are not despite having the same relation.

Is it right? No. But just look how we treat depression compared to a broken leg. How many times have you heard people dismissive of mental health? Just get over it, stop being sad, shake it off, etc.. You never hear someone say to someone with a broken leg to quit being such a crybaby and walk it off.

2. Abuse

The difference is intent. Punching someone in the face or emotionally abusing them is done with the intent to inflict pain/harm. Usually that is done for purposes of controlling that person. With the exception of RAs, the intent in having an affair is not to harm the other spouse although it is a very likely result.

Let's use our legal system to again illustrate. 1st degree murder vs. manslaughter. The result is the same: homicide. One conviction will cause you to die in prison; the other could have the person walking free in a couple of years. The only difference is intent.

I think intent is important only because it is a hard line from a slippery slope. If intent was not relevant, then any negative impact could be considered abusive. Telling someone you want a divorce, which will surely cause the one party not seeking the divorce immense pain, would be no different than punching them in the face. But I don't think anyone would say that it is the same. They would probably distinguish that although the results were the same--injury. The one situation lacked the intent.

3. Cultural Bias

We accept infidelity and reject other forms of abuse the same way we accept alcohol and reject pot. There is no scientific basis for it. In fact one can argue infidelity is much more dangerous for one's health than a single punch to the face. The same way we can alcohol is much more dangerous drug than marijuana. We is one more accepted than the other? Culture.

Our culture is greatly influence from Judeo-Christian tradition. In that tradition, Jesus drank wine, he didn't smoke doobies. David committed adultery, he didn't punch women in the face. Also, in that tradition, adultery--while a very serious offense--was seen as something that can be forgiven. It is not really a logical outcome.

4. Audience

This site was created by a couple that successfully R. While they do not advocate for R as a requirement for membership, their story obviously will inspire it. There are many pro-divorce forums. But there is not one single solution. Asking how could it be that D is not advocated would be like going to a vegetarian restaurant and asking why there are no meat-based dishes on the menu despite knowing that there are known benefits for including animal protein in your diet. While that is true, there are also health benefits for excluding it.

I'm not discounting your analysis though.

For me a PA would be an absolute dealbreaker.

Just like getting punched in the face. I wouldn't be vacillating like I am about R and D. Not that I don't respect the decision of those that choose to R after a PA. I'm sure for some of those that were in a pure PA, the EA would be an automatic dealbreaker. Maybe different kind of punches?

In my case I caught my WW balling up a fist about ready to throw the punch. And I said, "Are you about to punch me in the face?" She said "Yeah, that was the plan, but I guess I won't now."

Maybe this is too much focus on the analogy...

Affairs are a type of abuse. It being a dealbreaker should generally be the default. I'm personally engaged in foolishness to continue my M.

That's okay, I was just trying to make sure I was following.

I do think that in any successful reconciliation the WS does "pay" back as much as can be paid back. Obviously, there is no payment for such a thing that will ever be fair. I just would say that is usually happening alongside of the time in which the decision is made to try and R and working through the R itself.

I tend to think that your perspective on the order of the recompense is understandable. 3 years with rugsweeping, and it's only now your wife is starting to see the full repercussions of not only her actions in conducting the affair but the actions in the aftermath of the affair.

I tend to think a lot of couples go through periods of rugsweeping, only because there are times when you have to have breaks. In your case you had epically bad advice from professionals, which sound like they only solidified some of your wife's justifications.

I don't think it's worth much, but I will say that when I read this:

I don’t think people really take into consideration all of the trauma that comes from infidelity. In fact, I know it. The research is relatively new in addressing betrayal trauma. People don’t know what they’re asking a BS to endure in staying with a cheater. It’s so much more than “forgiving and moving on.”

I thought to myself that while I absolutely made intentional decisions that I knew were wrong, I had no idea that what would result would be Trauma. I didn't know people got PTSD from it. I didn't know much about trauma at all actually. I think that the tendency for those unaffected by infidelity view it the same - many WS included. From an outsiders perspective, or even from what is conveyed in books, movies, etc. the degree of hell is really not realized until you are actually in it.

I get that regardless the results do not change and the decisions should not have been made even without that knowledge. But perhaps there is more of an added maliciousness in a battered woman situation? I don't know, and as I said I am not sure how that equates into this conversation or if it does at all.

Seeing the damage first hand, I never really understand those who can go and do it all over again. It's certainly easier, kinder, and more appealing for me moving forward to just ask for a divorce. If I had done that in the first place I think we may have ended up in counseling in the first place and avoided this altogether. I can come to no possible conclusion that choosing to do it again would contain the type of maliciousness I was talking about above.

EDIT - I cross posted with KingRat, and he said it better ;-)

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:59 PM, September 30th (Wednesday)]

I think it could be really helpful to waywards who assume cheating is no big deal. The omg I'm being compared to a rapist or wife beater.

Now I have been raped and I have been beaten.

I can tell you that I'll take finding out my wh is having a PA again over either of those above!

That of course doesnt diminish the hurt and pain caused by wh having another pA by any means but it a different pain.

Now on a scale of most traumatic events in my life the one that will bring me to tears instantly as it has just getting ready to write about it is the moment the NICU doctor walked into my hospital room to give wh and I an update on our dd's condition after birth. That "shes stable but..."

The way he sat down, they way he hung his head they way he said "BUT" will forever be burned into my brain.

I can barely recall what dday is what now. Though one dday is etched in my brain so much has just moved on that it's not as much a trauma as it was.

(This doesnt include new or recent stuff).

Also I wont discount Reconciliation as our founders were reconciled. Proof that a couple CAN come out of infidelity happy and strong. Doesnt happen for all but it does happen

In my case I caught my WW balling up a fist about ready to throw the punch. And I said, "Are you about to punch me in the face?" She said "Yeah, that was the plan, but I guess I won't now."

Maybe this is too much focus on the analogy...

I think that's actually great. The analogy still works! Although in your case, I think she actually did take a few light jabs at your face, even after you guys talked about it.

"I guess I won't now. No on second thought, I guess I will. Or I'll just frog you on the shoulder really hard a couple of times. How does that feel, TIF?"