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I don't see how money makes up for an A. Money and the things it buys are one aspect of life. The emotions and conflict that come with cheating are quite another. The 2 can't be compared, IMO. I just don't see how ant amount of money would make it easy to deal with the consequences of an A.

I understand this position, but I don't think that is the point of restitution/recompense in the truth & reconciliation model.

If we're following that model, and I think we should because it's the most trustworthy model with the best track record of dealing with even larger scale problems than adultery, then we shouldn't try to tinker with it much.

Restitution can be monetary, but that doesn't mean it has to be. Each couple can determine that on their own.

As for the spiritual value of work, that is in the eye of beholder, so I wouldn't prejudge one type of job over another. Manual labor is known for allowing plenty of meditative thought.

I think restitution falls under "least you could do" and "demonstrating tangibly through self sacrifice true metanoia" - something like that. There are many ways a WS could demonstrate through tangible actions self-sacrifice and metanoia, aside from money (and here I am using metanoia in a secular sense to mean a wholesale conversion of the heart and mind away from the patterns of transgression that led to this point).

However, if monetary loss was a significant aspect of the adulterous acts, then I do think this should be given due consideration. Offering up a pre-nup and taking care of that would be another example. Consistent acts of service and so on. Many examples.

[This message edited by Thumos at 1:56 PM, November 16th (Monday)]

It could be monetary actually (especially if a lot of money was spent on the affairs). It could be taking the lead on getting an iron clad post-nup. It could be agreeing to a divorce on favorable terms unilaterally. It could be publicly acknowledging what they did. These are just a few examples. I'm sure others could think of many more.

If it's just something like "I'll go to IC and be nicer to you" or "look at this Brene Brown book I read, aren't you proud of me?" or "look at my journal with all of my deep thoughts about how I'm healing from my terrible transgression" that seems like cold comfort to me, actually.

I am in the camp of I far much will rather my H to go to counseling and do the hard work on himself than any of these other options for recompense. But, I think that's with the insight of what that means. I think maybe not witnessing first hand or second hand or whatever probably dictates your position to be different.

I also second that a 2nd job would be disasterous, especially that first 18 months or so. It IS a FULL TIME job when done properly. And, yes, there are books and IC, and yes working on how you are going to be in the relationships. But, the efforts behind these things in order to be effective are giant, and hard, filled with struggle and frustration and fight. I think you are minimizing them tremendously here and if you had experienced them with your spouse would find them to be a significant recompense.

The truth is that it is something that never will be repaid. At some point, I believe R happens because the WS truly does such significant long term work on themselves and is so consistent, and the BS finds it in them to give grace. Grace to me is undeserved, because in these circumstances they never will be deserved.

If financial infidelity happened on top of everything, then there is a whole different approach there.

I don't think the BS should ever have to see themselves as a punisher, that's an unfair role to have to bare in the midst of recovering from an affair. And, the WS needs to be able see what has happened as natural consequences rather than being punished.

I think I understand what Thumos and others are saying. The restitution/recompense is paid to the relationship and not the BS, per se. Remorse is demonstrative, so it is action. Reading books and doing IC are actions but they are more along the lines of individual improvement. It is fundamentally more for the benefit of the WS than the BS. It merely provides the BS a threshold level of security that the WS is capable of remorse.

The religious and philosophical examples are simply to match the actions with the professed beliefs. For example, if you do truly feel "x" doing "y" actions will provide you joy because they are actions that fulfill your professed words.

In the context of R, taking action (thus time and energy out of your day) to plan or prepare for time/event that serves to strengthen the relationship, i.e. planning a weekend vacation, demonstrates commitment to the words that the WS is truly sorry, and most importantly, cares about the relationship. The nuturing will inevitably lead to strengthening, and thus, repair the damage done and make it able to continue in the future.

What about recompense w/o R?

I don't want $ (or at least I don't think I do)...

Saying that R is just "accepting" and "letting go", etc is all fine and well for those working with "R material".

But I guess for those of us w/o a WS who is "R material", we just suck it up?

By divorcing, I lose the exact same things my WH does, tho he will always have a FAR higher earning capacity, he will not struggle to find another partner, as an older man is never held to the same "fuckability" standards that an older woman is (well, unless you are Cher), etc.

Now, my healing/gratitude self says "but you will have your freedom from a liar, so be grateful for that ability", and she is right.

Yet, my not so healed /work in progress self says: that feeling of anger over the injustice may never go away.

Saying that R is just "accepting" and "letting go", etc is all fine and well for those working with "R material"

I wasn't saying this at all.

I am saying if the WS is doing all the things they should do, there is a lot of work in that, and a lot of that work should be directed at you and your relationship.

I am not saying the BS lets it go gently or easily, I am saying that if you are R'ing the WS could do everything in the world, it will never be repaid. Ever. That's where the grace will have to occur if you are to stay together.

I am talking years of the WS doing work and consistently putting you and your relationship first. I am sitting here now, betrayed, and having had the shoe on the other foot I have huge doubts that my husband is going to be able to do what is going to be needed for me to feel like giving him grace.

In the context of R, taking action (thus time and energy out of your day) to plan or prepare for time/event that serves to strengthen the relationship, i.e. planning a weekend vacation, demonstrates commitment to the words that the WS is truly sorry, and most importantly, cares about the relationship. The nuturing will inevitably lead to strengthening, and thus, repair the damage done and make it able to continue in the future.

I don't disagree with this at all. I planned quarterly trips, weekly dates, I did anything I could at all to show him what he meant to me. . But, the part that I am accounting for is the idea there would always have been a gap that would have had to be filled with my husband saying the debt had been paid. I had also agreed to a tilted divorce agreement that I forfeited some of the assets.

He can do all those things for me, but without the individual work, I am not R'ing. In fact, I would say I weigh the individual work as 85%. It's MUCH harder than planning dates or trips or any of the other stuff.

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:47 PM, November 16th (Monday)]

I don't know if there is recompense without R. In a divorce, neither party may feel they hold an obligation to one another any further. I think at the very least giving the other person a better financial agreement. But, the reality is without R, the BS is essentially left to heal on their own. Should it be that way no? But, even in R, the bs also has to find some of the healing components on their own. I can honestly look back on the last couple of years and say I put it all on the table and did everything I could, it didn't make my BS heal. He only pretended to heal.

If I choose divorce, I am choosing it knowing that financially we should probably be even because he also cheated, but other than that, I don't think there is any recompense for what he has done. He at least got some of mine.

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:35 PM, November 16th (Monday)]

Also, GMC, I reread what you wrote, and realized I am just feeling defensive and out of sorts. I am sorry if my response came out bristled. I don't know the answer to your question really, because as you probably feel there doesn't seem to be a good answer for it.

It is not a question of actually repaying, at least not in full, IMO. Judaism, I am told, requires restitution for forgiveness. The benefit is said to be twofold:

First, the injured party gets some form of justice. This lack of justice is very hard to accept for me. To see my XW ride off into the sunset with her AP, unscathed, was especially galling.

Second, the offender gets to, to some extent anyway, alleviate some guilt by making a tangible sacrifice that benefits those he or she injured. It may not be commensurate, but it is something.

This Willard Harley guy calls what is needed " just compensation", although my understanding of how he defines it is that the cheater becomes what he or she should have been all along. He or she abides by the vows and prioritizes the spouse and family.

IOW, no restitution or compensation over and above what was already owed before inflicting the injury. Not sure that seems adequate or fair.

I know this insistence on fairness or justice may seem petty and, clearly unrealistic. That is why the willingness to attempt to make restitution vs actually being able to do it would be important to me.

I would never really be able to sit back and watch my cheater XW go through anything like I had to, the massive rapid weight loss, the sleeplessness, the loss of confidence etc. I always forgive folks easily, too easily most who know me complain.

HO - understood & mostly agreed (FWIW, I was not thinking of any of your posts when I made mine)

I agree that IF a BS is committing to R, they must let a ton of shit go in order to offer grace. And the grace must be earned, which is - in and of itself - a form of recompense (eg having a FWS who is a better version of themselves)

But when R is not a viable option bc the WS is unable or unwilling to engage in that particular form of recompense, the very idea of any recompense strikes me as nothing more than a mirage.

This thread is in general, and I guess I'm just grumpy about not being clear or distinguishing when referring / discussing things that apply only to those in R vs those not in R when in this forum. Not saying those in R shouldn't be posting here -of COURSE they should!

or maybe I'm just grumpy bc there is no justice with a bonehead WS :)

ETA - HO we cross posted, and NO apology needed :)

[This message edited by gmc94 at 2:53 PM, November 16th, 2020 (Monday)]

Maybe I'm just grumpy bc there is no justice with a bonehead WS :)

I am grumpy too today. Very. Also feeling like I am married to a bonehead WS. And, if we divorce there will be no recompense, so I definitely feel you there.

I guess the only advice I would have further is there are educational programs on how you can do AirBNB's without owning property. The education suggests that each AirBNB on average earns about 500-1000 above market rent, which can be pure profit. I am seeing this to be true even in my little town. I am not selling anything or involved in the education, but look that up as an option. We have done enough that I have almost replaced my salary and it takes very little time and effort. So, in other words, if it's a financial picture, where there is a will there is a way. I would love to see you divorce this guy and live better than you ever have. So, I am sharing something that is working well for me. The sad thing is I was trying to replace my salary so we could travel in the RV. Now if that happens it will be a miracle.

I really had to exercise a lot of self control not to exact revenge. I fantasized about it a fair bit.

He can do all those things for me, but without the individual work, I am not R'ing. In fact, I would say I weigh the individual work as 85%. It's MUCH harder than planning dates or trips or any of the other stuff.

No question. The individual work is the threshold level. That gets you in the door, or if we are using employment analogies, that is the resume that gets you the interview. But to be in actual "R", I was refereeing to restoring the trust that you actually want the relationship. I have to feel that you are just here out of guilt, because it is too expensive to divorce, the kids, etc.; you are here because you love and respect me and actually desire this relationship. I can trust that a person is truly remorseful for hurting me, the individual, but I also have to trust there is remorse for hurting "us", and most importantly for true R, wanting and cherishing "us".

T/J: Thanks HO... I hope to hear good news on the job front really really soon, but am not counting a single chicken before it's hatched.

But I would not do AirBnB w/o a lease that is clear about allowing it - at least not in my neck of the woods. I know an attorney representing a landlord in a lawsuit against a tenant who leased apartments all around town then "rented" them on AirBnB for profit. I dunno the status, but I don't think this was the only landlord who sued this guy (I think the landlord is arguing it's a sublet that's prohibited by the lease).

I think the hardest part for my sitch is that I truly believe WH wants to do the work, wants to change, but he just can't. Or maybe he can't with me (I do sometimes wonder if my presence triggers his shame, just as his presence can trigger my trauma). He NEVER "dived in" to the work - always a million other distractions that are his priorities. End of the day, doesn't matter.... he's not earned the right to my story or my vulnerability, and it doesn't look like he ever will.

And KingRat - I like your employment analogy. Infidelity is definitely something that requires a serious revision to the old resume.

[This message edited by gmc94 at 3:51 PM, November 16th, 2020 (Monday)]

This thread continues to pay dividends in my opinion for fruitful discussion.

I'll say this about the monetary piece: I wouldn't overemphasize it but I wouldn't rule it out, either. Money is legal tender representing a time and energy investment. Giving it up unilaterally without expecting anything in return would actually be a meaningful gesture. Not the only thing that could be done, but certainly not meaningless, especially if some form of financial infidelity was involved (and there often is).

To that end, I think the best litmus test of a WS' real and demonstrated remorse would be a willingness to offer unilaterally a favorable, amicable and cheap divorce for the BS upfront after disclosure/discovery. Not that the BS would be required to take the offer, not that the WS would want it to happen, but that the offer is itself made as "the least I can do."

This is a far more meaningful gesture than a post nup, because essentially the "deed is already done" after disclosure/discovery and a post nup is only saying "oh but I won't do it AGAIN" and isn't enforceable in many states, in any case.

A lack of willingness to proffer this (ideally without prompting) in my view reflects some level of a lack of remorse.

[This message edited by Thumos at 4:01 PM, November 16th (Monday)]

A lack of willingness to proffer this (ideally without prompting) in my view reflects some level of a lack of remorse.

I agree. I got that discussion about 5 (give or take) months ago, so roughly 2.5yrs after dday (and I believe at the urging of his IC).

Days late and dollars short IMO, but that's pretty much par for the course with my WH.

FWIW, I agree that there is no real recompense for adultery, but it's one of those situations where the effort is what matters.

I have to agree with Thumos. Money won't heal your wounds, but refusing to "pay up" definitely shows a lack of remorse to me.

When I left, before I committed to NC, I had sent XH a text saying that I would send him an excel sheet documenting the money he owes me, including the cost of my rush STD testing, the AirBnB I had to book last minute to get out of the house because he insisted on keeping the mistress there even though I had paid my portion of rent, in addition to money he already owed me for his new tires, windshield etc. and his response was "Oh, I get it, so it's all about the money?? I knew it, you only married me for my money!" Coming from the guy who only made approximately $10k more than me, and who was in debt up to his eyeballs

He could not see that this money was rightfully owed to me and well within reason to ask for. He saw it as an attack on him that I would ask for something he owed me. That just shows how fucked up their thinking is.

The money itself would not have healed me. But it certainly would have gone a long way toward paying for all of my out of pocket therapy expenses for a trauma specialist, for example, and that has certainly helped with my healing.

By divorcing, I lose the exact same things my WH does, tho he will always have a FAR higher earning capacity, he will not struggle to find another partner, as an older man is never held to the same "fuckability" standards that an older woman is (well, unless you are Cher), etc.

Now, my healing/gratitude self says "but you will have your freedom from a liar, so be grateful for that ability", and she is right.

Yet, my not so healed /work in progress self says: that feeling of anger over the injustice may never go away.

Couldn't have said this better, gmc. I do often feel like he got away with murder. To hear him say it, he is the greatest victim in this whole thing, of course, because the only thing greater than his ego is his victimhood.

But I lost a lot more than my XH did, actually. I lost time with my kids, because they're not biologically mine. That's perhaps the biggest loss, though the monetary losses were also significant. And I know that a 33 year old woman with PTSD who simultaneously has 2 step children and all the baggage that comes with that, AND has a biological clock ticking to procreate herself, is not exactly prime material in the current dating market.

My healed self knows it is better off without him. I refused to lower my standards for someone who would not treat me as the amazing person that I am, so when he decided that he did not want to live up to those standards, the trash took itself out. Truly, my standards did what they're supposed to do, they eliminated a threat that wouldn't live up to them.

But you are right, I don't know if there is any way that the raw end of the deal I got ever truly feels accounted for. There's no way to balance those books.

True, I don't have to live my life as a sex addicted meth head like he does. Chalk that up as a win for me, I guess. But no amount of money is going to give me the most fertile years of my life back. No amount of money will allow me to have a normal relationship with my younger daughter, because he has decided to poison her against me. There is no recompense for the PTSD I'll likely live with for the rest of my life. The debt hole I'm in feels almost unscalable, and I was debt free when we split, but had no choice than to leverage myself to the max just to survive. How is that fair? It's not.

The abuse of agency and control is what really gets me, though. He is choosing to live life as a sex and drug addict. While I can feel sorry for him, it's still his choice to do those things, to attempt to emotionally regulate in those destructive ways. The difference is that unbeknownst to me, he took many of my choices away. He didn't beat me, or kidnap me, or refuse to allow me to do things like in "traditional" abuse scenarios. But he definitely held my life hostage with his lies. I would certainly not have made many of the choices I made had I been given all of the facts I needed to make truly informed decisions.

And this wasn't like I was gambling on something, where I knew there was a 50/50 chance things might work out, and that's just the risk you take when making a choice. Significant information that would have contributed greatly to my decision making was deliberately withheld from me. It would be like the prosecution withholding evidence at trial, and now I'm doing time for a crime I didn't commit.

If you kidnap someone, you've committed a crime, and nobody would question that. But he made me an unwitting hostage of his lies. How is that not equivalent? How is it not, at the very least, fraud?

If a company sold you a turkey sandwich, and it turned out it was, in fact, a rat sandwich, you could sue the ever-loving shit out of them. How is the false bill of goods our WS's sold us not equally damaging?

How is the false bill of goods our WS's sold us not equally damaging?

Yes all of this. I feel like I got the rotten end of the deal too. He makes more money than I do but I had to move out into an apartment because the house we were living in was his mom's the kids prefer it more there because it was their home that they knew. They tell me that my place feels like a vacation but I know it's not home to them. It infuriates me and I fucking hate him so much for the position I am in. We own a home that is currently being rented which I plan on moving back to when my lease is up. This was the kids home when they were younger.

I hate that he buys their love.

I cannot stand that I see them 50 % of the time.

But it's still a lot better than living with his narcissistic abuse.

Oh, yeah. The loss of time with the kids is huge. Pisses me off more than anything.

Back when I got divorced, 25 years ago, males had a much worse chance of getting custody. Nothing could ever make up for that.

I bet a lot of us got not only no restitution, but never got an admission, never mind any form of apology.

A lack of willingness to proffer this (ideally without prompting) in my view reflects some level of a lack of remorse.

I don't know that's true either.

If the woman is a SAHW, and there are children, there aren't a lot of options sometimes in offering a better deal.

For myself, I was hurt very little in offering to give up some of the assets. I make as much as he does and would be able to live comfortably. So, while I was remorseful in offering it, it really wasn't as demonstrative as if I was a woman making no money or 1/3 of what he made with children at home. I get that there is child support but many couples have decided to not advance the woman's career in favor of their family values. It will take the woman considerable time to make that up and child support is not always a big tangible with many states splitting custody 50/50.

So, I do not think that always will be feasible regardless of the level of remorse.

Oh and T/J - the education I referred to GMC - explicity states you need to do this in agreement with the landlord. Gives you ideas of how to pitch it and how to legally do it. You would be surprised as to the number of landlords that see the benefits and can even charge above market rent.

We have our own rentals and have converted a few of those as well. But, it works the same way because we pay our other company rent just like we would the other company. I don't know you seem to have some acumen by what I read from you and it's worth checking out. There are no limitations as to what we can do, it's just a matter of doing it.