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What she did has nothing to do with what you are doing.

Farsidejunky

I really can't get over this statement from you. I know beyond the shadow of a shred of a doubt that what she did has EVERYTHING to do with my occasional anger outbursts and name calling. I have never in my life called her names before this.

I am holding you accountable for your poor behavior, CBM. Your victim mentality is exactly why you don't like it.

Are you an actual victim? Absolutely. If I found myself in similar circumstances, I would likely go through the same range of emotions as you. Maybe even worse. I am not without sympathy or empathy for you.

However, what you are failing to see is that setting up camp in the drama triangle is exactly why you are not healing. Sisoon and many others have told you this repeatedly.

Until you see it, I will continue to hold you accountable for your abusive behavior. Why?

Because you have tremendous potential.

Because your marriage has tremendous potential.

But until you figure out your need to plant your butt firmly in the drama triangle, none of it will happen.

https://www.lynneforrest.com/articles/2008/06/the-faces-of-victim/ [Mod Approved]

If you don't want me to weigh in, simply say the word and I will leave your thread.

CBM:

I really can't get over this statement from you. I know beyond the shadow of a shred of a doubt that what she did has EVERYTHING to do with my occasional anger outbursts and name calling. I have never in my life called her names before this.

Me - BH

If someone else is to blame for you compromising your own standards, are they really your standards?

No.

If they were, you would apologize without qualification, which is really just a passive-aggressive way to blame someone else besides yourself.

[This message edited by farsidejunky at 9:26 AM, March 15th (Friday)]

Please, give this man a BREAK!!!!. Abuse goes both ways!!!

We understand name calling is wrong regardless the situation but it happen.

I, like many here has been there. We also must have empathy to the situation.

CBM, you must invest in counseling because you need to address your hurt and anger. If you don't, your marriage has a far less chance for R.

[This message edited by Bigheart2018 at 9:32 AM, March 15th (Friday)]

I don't know. I understand sometimes people fly off the handle. This is a difficult time for you.

I will say this...My h was angry, I have seen him at the rage stage - it lasted probably 3 months shortly after the shock wore off. He never once called me a slut or any other name. He has never once called me a name the entire time we have been married or as a couple. I know that I would have deserved it, and it might have even been understandable, but the fact he never did it reinforces to me how much of a better person he is than I have been. I am going to say that's probably been very effective. More so than name calling. Had he done that, I think I would have made a similar request. It accomplishes nothing, it's a behavior that can be controlled and it would have done nothing towards letting me become the person that deserves him. It would have kept me in the dirt. You love this woman I get she hurt you greatly, but is that really your goal? The way I read you I think it isn't. I think you are having trouble coping, and you should discuss this issue with your IC. I just think you are better than that.

I have caught up on your thread. I will also say that you really wanted to leverage this in order to have a sexual experience with someone else. Not even really a revenge affair, more of a free pass because you didn't do enough sexually before you were tied down. I am not judging you for that either, I can follow it to a certain degree. I am a wayward, I know all about having resentments and fueling it to let me do things that I know are harmful with the entitlement of "I deserve this". I don't want to resurrect this conversation - but wanted to comment on two things because I didn't see anyone else say it and because I think it dovetails with the name calling:

1. This would put you in a position you could hurt an innocent bystander. Meaning, sure you might find a woman who is okay with just being used, but it's just as likely you will find a woman who is hoping for more.

2. It is greatly at odds with your statement you want to reconcile. This will be damaging to you, to your wife. You would be surprised how much it would damage you, I was completely unprepared for that aspect of it.

But, what I want to point out is your desire is to reconcile from everything I can see in your post. Both the name calling and the desire to have a free pass are at odds with that desire or goal.

Look, it's not fair at all that you are having to deal with this pain, and I get that desire to act out. However, you do need to recognize that even though your wife cheated - you have the ability to not create more damage on each of you. It's not weak to walk the higher road, it's actually much stronger to do so. I will side with the others who keep trying to point out that you do have control of not participating in the drama triangle. Concentrate on your healing, concentrate on being the man you are so you can be proud of that regardless what happens moving forward.

That was a long winded way of saying, yes I think a wayward can ask not to be called names. We can't ask that you aren't angry or that you don't have reactions, or that there aren't consequences.

I get some of the disconnect you write about as well. I can't at all connect with who I was at 20, 23, 25... But, this is happening to you in real time. It's might as well happened in the months leading up to DDAY I do think flawed really needs to recognize that because she held the secret she was complicit with her younger self. She protected that version of herself all the way and is still protecting that version to some degree. You aren't just upset with who she was then, you are upset with who she is today.

ETA: If I have overestimated your desire to reconcile, I do believe even if you divorced your desire would be to have an effective coparenting relationship with your childrens mother. Doing more damage to that relationship I don't believe that is in your best interest either.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:58 AM, March 15th (Friday)]

Jesus, this thread...

CBM says a couple pages back how he's really starting to think about D, and then its nothing but ppl trying to talk him out of it.

Then he talks about his occasional outbursts which include name calling and he's chastised for it AT LESS THAN 5 FUCKING MONTHS OUT.

And y'all wonder why SI is called the "R at any cost" forum. Jesus... unbelievable...smmfh.

GoldenR:

Occasional outbursts are understandable.

Trying to justify them as being okay is not.

If I were in CBM's shoes, I would be leaning hard towards divorce.

What I am advocating for has zero to do with reconciliation, and everything to do with his healing. I also think there is a lot of 'going through the motions' with his wife. IOW, it is all about CBM.

farsidejunky, if you are trying to come across as compassionately challenging, you are failing.

You are applying reason and logic to his situation as if this is a perfect world. It is not. And the drama triangle is not the end-all be-all answer for everything. You know what else would have been nice is to not have been thrust into this situation by his WW.

It's been weeks. He knows what is hapopening is wrong and he's working on it. The guy is struggling, and he asked you to stop. Stop.

***Duplicate post

[This message edited by numb&dumb at 2:59 PM, March 15th (Friday)]

CBM:

I sincerely apologize for my posts causing you any angst or triggering.

Take care, brother.

CBM123- In all honesty I think that particular name said in anger does what it is exactly intended to do. Hurt her. It probably bothers you to see her acting like everytihng is fine and being happy while you feel like the opposite. You bring her back to a place of pain. Then at least she can't be happy, right ? I mean you are not so why does she get to ?

I get it, man. I really do. I've done that and much worse with my W. I do think that certain words hit certain people harder than others.

I think that maybe this is a word that hurts her. It carries meaning beyond that it may mean to you. It discredits who she is now. Also let's be honest the social connotations for a woman called than name are very hurtful.

What is that word important to keep in your vocabulary ? Can't you express the same thing, but in a way that doesn't use that word ? I think you can and it turn it helps you get closer to what underneath that bothers you. Anger is a secondary emotion. Fear of something would be my guess.

Again this just me analyzing from afar. . . I think you want to see an acknowledgement from her about her past deeds. You want her to show you that she hurts from those things too. You are a little dumbfounded that she isn't hurt more. She has had 12 years to process. She had a lot more time to process, heal and put meaning against it. What meaning can you give to it ? Is it a sad, pathetic and scared young woman where suddenly nothing is going her way. She felt lost. I am not excusing anything. It was probably the worst thing she has ever done and I know I say this. It is possible she expected you to leave her. I mean why wouldn't you ? She likely felt very little self worth back then. I think you can relate to that, right ?

I see something very clearly and I point it out because I know how hard it is to lose sight of that. Your opinion of your W and how you see her is much more important to her than you think it is. She sees value in herself because she sees that you value her. She defines herself by you and your family. No, not healthy at all and co-dependent as fuck, but that doesn't mean it is not there. That is why certain words hurt her so much. Moreso than what a similar name might hurt someone else. She isn't asking to stop calling her names exactly. It is more like I am trying to be very vulnerable here. Please don't make it harder for me than it already is. I think you get that too.

5 Month out ? I'd bet the empathy and remorse are not fully present. She had a long time to put these thoughts away. Further she is probably like not feeling the guilt that she had for lying to you. She is not lying to you now and doesn't have to feel bad about that anymore. She unburdened, but can't see or remember why this is still fresh for you. She needs to try a lot harder to empathize with you. She needs to see her past choices did in fact hurt you a whole lot. HEr apolgoes ring hallow because you don't feel she understands on how many levels this has hurt you. I'd also bet when she apologizes it is for everything she did. It doesn't work like that because the insincerity is implied. She did not have to work to understand all the different parts. Apologizing without understanding the depth of the hurt you feel is not a genuine apology. It is lip service. Does she spologize for making you insecure? Does she apologize for not respecting you enough to tell you the truth ? Does she apologize for being selfish because shen she does it makes you feel . . .? You get the idea.

Back to the trigger word. So this worked for me sometimes. If a particular name or thing that I did really bothered her we would negotiate. Quid pro quo sounds unhealthy and unsexy as hell, but right now it is not about being 100% healthy. It is about getting through day by day. Healing and healthy communication takes time.

It sounds to me that she seems like that word bothers her. I think it would be ok to trade not using that for something she does that you need to see her do. I know it sounds weird, but it might help move to slightly better place. It might make 2-3, 1-2 per month ? You make progress little by little. It does not come in big dramatic events. You usually see it after the fact. "Huh, I have not had an outburts in 3 weeks."

At the end of the day you want her to get your pain, validate it and atone for causing you that pain. There are much better ways to get that from her. I think that is really what you want.

What types of things typically cause an outburst on your end ? It is jut life stress adding to the neverending Post Dday angst or it is something particular that makes you go from 50-100 in a second ?

Also I do think you are not taking care of yourself in the ways you may think you are. You need self care too. You need something else to invest emotional "tokens" in. Outside your M. Maybe a hobby, side project or something else to validate our own self worth without using your W or family to do so.

When you invest all of those tokens in just one place there is nothing left when it hurts mor than it helps you feel confident in who are and the value you bring to those around you.

This shit is hard man. It is the hardest thing I have ever had to do. It was worth it. I really did not have any other option, did i ? My options where do nothing and let it control my life or work to wrest control of it from my life. Really those are the options any of us have after Dday hits.

Sorry forgot to mention. My W's trigger word that bothered her more than anything was, "Stupid." I used all the rest too. That one in particular reduced her to rubble in seconds.

As much as it felt good to express it in the moment it was short lived and made me feel worse. Think on it. What does it really get you ? There is here you need to look. What do you think it gains you something. If it does how do you get that in another way ?

** JMO, and posting as a member (all my posts in this thread have been as a member, and I apologize for not stating that) **

Getting out of the DT has nothing to do with the decision to D or R, although the more one stays out of DTs, the easier it is to make good decisions.

And yes, the difference between victim, 'one who is mistreated by someone else,' and Victim, 'one who plays the role of a victim,' is confusing.

'You slut!' comes from being in a DT. (It's a switch from Victim to Persecutor.)

'I'm furious!' probably comes from authenticity.

The way out of DTs starts, IMO & IME, with knowing what you're feeling - one or more of sad, mad, scared, ashamed and figuring out how you want to handle your feeling(s). Then, ask for what you want.

We probably can't help feeling an emotion, but we are fully responsible - fully responsible - for what we do with it.

***********

She says, "well, I would like to request you stop calling me names like that."

There is nothing wrong with that request. It's just asking for what she wants. It's up to you to say yea or nay.

WSes are human beings. They are not punching bags. A BS is well-advised not to treat his WS as a friend, but there's no morally good basis for abusing them.

Possibly the ONLY basis for mistreating one's WS is the idea that '2 wrongs make a right' - and we know that's not true. Even if there are other ideas that support abusing WSes, abuse is just plain out of bounds.

***********

I often write: 'BS heals BS. WS heals WS. Together they (re)build their M, if they want to.'

I mean that the best way to R is for the WS to change from cheater to good partner. That change will enable the WS to love her BS.

I do not see a WS's catering to a BS as all that conducive to R. Responding positively to requests is positive for R, but mindlessly treating the BS as a king takes energy that is better used by the WS in making the internal changes necessary to become a good partner. That comes down to getting authentic - knowing what one wants, knowing what one wants to give, asking for what one wants, reclaiming one's integrity.

The BS needs to process his feelings, and he also needs to get authentic in the same way a WS needs to do, except that perhaps a BS 'maintains,' rather than 'reclaims,' his integrity.

***********

So, CBM. What do you want? What do you want to give? What will you ask for?

You may not know the answers to those questions. The best way to get the answers is to get out of DTs.

It's against the rules (well, my rules) to hold out for the impossible. For example, you can not, as yet, go back in time and prevent the A.

And again, I don't know if D or R is better for you. I'm pretty sure that what you've written in this thread about both D & R has been from within DTs, and I believe decisions from within DTs tend to be sub-optimal.

BTW, I've spent a LOT of my life mostly in DTs, and a lot of my life mostly out of them, and I can't recommend staying out of DTs strongly enough.

JMO

[This message edited by sisoon at 10:58 AM, March 15th (Friday)]

This ship of a marriage is starting to sink.

The serial cheating* since the relationship began. The years of lying about it to lock down CBM as a provider/father. And the utter lack of empathy from is wife. These are the holes punched in the hull.

Arguing about occasional, in the heat of the moment name calling, is just rearranging the chairs on the deck.

Maybe it’s time to physically separate and get some emotional distance.

*If name calling while mad is abuse. Then his wife running around the UK with another guy for the feels, after engaged, counts as a EA. And thus meets the definition of a serial cheater.

He is 5 months out from having a nuclear bomb dropped on him. Yeah,ok, it was several years ago that she cheated. But she lied to him every,single day since the first time she flirted with OM. Years of lies. Years of presenting herself as someone she's not. She is asking him to eat a giant shit sandwich every second,of every day, and then tells him to behave himself and not say,as he had said, "you behaved like a slut," because she doesnt like it.

So BS has to be careful not to hurt her feelings, while he is still bleeding out. He has actually said he knows it's not helpful, and he is working on not doing it. It doesnt sound like he disagrees that it's not helpful. He's upset because he is terribly hurt every second of the day,but she cant deal with him saying she behaved like a slut years ago. He has said he doesnt say she IS a slut. He says she was. And she was. So he shouldn't be honest about her past behavior because it hurts her feelings. He's getting no credit for saying he knows he shouldnt,that he doesnt like it,and he is working on not doing it. He's getting shamed and reprimanded because he hasn't been able to control that part of his anger just yet. He is upset that he's eating the shit sandwich, but she cant take a bite now and then?

Maybe instead of shaming fingers in his face,and telling him how bad he is, people could suggest how to control his anger better,so he can stop himself before he says it.

@HellFire, I appreciate you chiming in...

I’ve been following your and Flawed’s threads, mostly quietly, for a long time now because the circumstances you are in so closely mirror my own. Because of that, I think I’ve felt too invested in the success of your R to say what I’m about to say now, and for that I apologize, because what you need is honest feedback.

If you really believe what you’ve been writing recently, I think you probably are correct that D is inevitable.

I share Marauder’s belief that Flawed is presenting a PR version of doing the work, angled towards gaining support, but I have a different view on why she’s doing it. The word “abuse” is clearly incendiary in this context, but objectively, she fits the criteria for living in an emotionally abusive relationship. I am not arguing that what she did to you wasn’t traumatizing. Believe me, I am not. I traumatized my BH with my A and my lies, for far longer than Flawed did, and I am intimately familiar with the terrible consequences of that trauma. That being said, the interlude you describe – and to your credit, I believe you describe it entirely honestly – demonstrates that you feel justified in delivering emotional abuse when triggered, even as you deliberately set up situations that cause those triggers. The whole discussion began because you asked what she meant about being willing to be punished forever in order to stay with you. She answered that one example is being called a slut and a whore. You said you didn’t want to do that forever, so she asked if you could please stop doing it. You felt that was unfair because you only call her names when she says or does things that make you angry. And that made you angry, so your response to her request that you not call her a slut is to insist that she call herself a slut, right then and there. You say you demanded she do it specifically because you thought she wouldn’t do it. And now you’re pissed that she once again destroyed an intimate moment you were having together. She is not the saboteur here. In these circumstances, I can see why she’s cultivating a mask with you and everyone around her, trying to say the right thing rather than the authentic thing. That’s a common response in people who are told that it’s their responsibility to maintain an environment that is free from any triggers, and that any abuse they receive if they miscalculate is no more than what they have coming to them.

I’m familiar with the argument that a wayward should simply expect and accept abusive language as the natural consequence of their actions, if they want to R. And your WW has, in fact, accepted it. She said she was willing to tolerate it indefinitely if she had to. She was also hoping she didn’t have to. So the question then becomes why, in the midst of a productive conversation and in response to a politely worded request, you felt so undermined and attacked that you needed to purposely humiliate her. And it wasn’t like you said later, “Shit, that can’t happen again, I really was out of line.” It’s “True, that was not my proudest moment, but honestly, what does she expect when she does that kind of thing?” “That kind of thing” was a request for some basic human respect, which in light of her actions, you do not believe she deserves. You’re outraged that she thinks she has a right to express any feelings about being called a slut. Indications of self-respect from her equate in your mind to lack of respect for you.

Some posters clearly feel that this reaction falls under a normal anger phase, and I’m sure there are many people, both BS and WS, who have longer and better perspectives on whether this level of anger is something they have toughed out and healed from afterwards. What I see, though, is a consistent refrain, from your very earliest posts, that this is not a situation that you think you can recover from. You say that you wish you had never gotten together, that you would have broken up with her if you had known the truth, that your marriage should not have existed, that your children should not have existed, that you resent her, that you even at times resent the children, that staying is a violation of your core values. You’ve really never wavered from this belief. You’ve sometimes proclaimed it angrily, sometimes almost begged for people to convince you otherwise. My heart goes out to you in those moments. I’m not implying this is easy for you to face.

What I have read in months on SI, though, is that sometimes the BS just knows it’s a dealbreaker. A few cut the cord cleanly; more seem to tough it out hoping that something will change, and regret it later. If you know in your heart that that’s the case – and frankly, you show every sign of it – then what you are doing is unnecessarily cruel and detrimental to both your and Flawed’s mental health. It will only make it more difficult for you to coparent effectively after your marriage ends in D.

As you say, life is linear. The past cannot be changed. You chose to pursue and marry an immature party girl, and she acted like an immature party girl. She’s grown and matured, but that doesn’t neutralize the essential betrayal for you. You regret marrying her. You have the right to walk away, and quite frankly, if your anger and bitterness are insurmountable, doing it sooner rather than later is probably the kindest decision for everyone.

@BraveSirRobin

I appreciate the honesty. I think you nailed it in a lot of ways.

I think I may be trying to do my own bit of cake eating. On one hand, I feel like her infidelity is a deal-breaker, and I have a strong desire to start over, be single, date, experience sex with others, fall in love again, and have a fresh start without infidelity in the equation. On the other hand, I still love my wife, I love our children and don't want to hurt them if I can help it, and I don't want to put my life into chaos. So I keep coming back to wanting to act in ways that are akin to acting single (hall pass, name calling) but also trying to reconcile.

Meanwhile, my wife desperately wants us to work and has low self worth, so she's willing to abide whatever I throw out there as long as it means staying married.

This is probably blatantly obvious to most people, but I am just now starting to realize this and see how dysfunctional it is.

I think what makes me so sad, and what really hit me earlier in the week, is that the honest truth is that I don't think I can be a good husband to her anymore, and I don't think we should remain married. I don't like who I am right now at all. Her confession has made me a worse person, an entitled asshole, I can see that and sense it and I hate it. She deserves better than I can give her; anyone judging her solely on who she is today would think she's a catch. I am the only person on Earth hung up over who she was a decade ago. I think I need to experience starting over, and maybe afterwards I can find my love for her again and see her only for who she is today and accept who she was back then.

But, she keeps telling me how badly she wants us to work and how much she can't picture life without me, and I often feel the same way. So then I start over down the path of R, feeling like it's my responsibility to save us both from the outcome we don't want, divorce. But it keeps coming back to the same spot - me feeling like I can't get over this.

My wife shared her fantasy of our future together with me the other day. It was what you would expect - growing old together, our kids growing up, etc. I can't really picture it. The biggest fantasy I have is her revealing another affair so I can make a clean break and feel confident in the decision. That's my fantasy. It's awful.

It's very, very sad. Truly, it is tragic. We have had great love for one another for a very long time. I can imagine a happy future together. Shit, we were living it six months ago. We were watching The Matrix last night and I told her she created my own Matrix for me, my own fantasy world, and then it's like she shoved "the red pill" down my throat and now we both wish she just kept giving me the blue pill. She can't un-confess and I can't un-know and so here we are, both miserable, both sad, both hurt. And both feeling like there is this love that exists, that is strong, that was our reality for a long time, but now it feels impossible to regain, at least for me.

Whether it's choosing to share with me that she "doesn't need me to satisfy her" when we're supposed to be having sex, or sharing that she has had sexual fantasies about my best friend for a decade,

CBM, your comments in bold above. Care to elaborate where this came from and in what context? This makes no sense to me. Was it made out of anger? Is it a present tense, or past tense statement? If present, how can reconciliation even be considered if she has sexual fantasies of your friend?

Assuming they're genuine, these thoughts were acted upon 12 years ago and if they remain within her, how can you move forward. More importantly, how can she expect you to feel safe within your marriage, if sexual fantasies of a close friend exists? Not some movie actor. A close friend. Who else does she think of this way?

Her thoughts of your friend draws a distinct line attaching the dots of her past self and present self. 10 years of sexual fantasies. W-T-F?????????????? It's so preposterous, I'm wondering (and hoping actually) that there's misunderstanding or misinterpretation of it that can be explained away.

If what you said, is what she said verbatim, I don't see how this is possible. I've been a member of SI since November 2017, hence have read hundreds of threads. This statement is one of the most egregious WW statement I've read. Top five actually. The number one can't be beat, but this is a top fiver.

I do think BraveSirRobin's post was very insightful.

You chose to pursue and marry an immature party girl, and she acted like an immature party girl. She’s grown and matured, but that doesn’t neutralize the essential betrayal for you. You regret marrying her.

I guess this is what I was getting at when I asked you about the source of your anger a few pages back. I wondered if some of that anger and resentment comes from the fact that it may feel like a double betrayal. She betrayed you and that naturally causes a great deal of anger, but is there any anger that springs from a feeling of betraying your own instinct about the entire situation? I know that was the case for me.

Also, I notice you seem to give her a lot of responsibility for your decisions/actions. The fantasy you said you had for example, the matrix analogy, the after sex fight, etc. I'm just saying there is power in recognizing you have a choice that is independent of actions of others.

In my own experience, and to you use your matrix, I had to realize it was me who created my own matrix, my own fantasy world. It was because I refused to accept who she was and pursued the person I fantasized her to be. Like you, I asked for the truth. So I can't say that the red pill was shoved down my throat, in asking, I assume responsibility for opening my mouth and swallowing.

Remember, none of this is your fault; her affair and subsequent damage is 100% on her. Do not take blame for this. My reason for pointing this out is not for you to feel responsible or kick yourself in the butt, but it is rather to recognize agency and start making choices and owning them without any conditions.

Sometimes we make bad choices, but we can't blame ourselves as long as we understand we did the best we could at the time with the information we had.