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You tell her she MUST have a VAR on her the next time she has her 1:1 with Mr. Bossman. All you know is what she tells you. Hear it for your own ears. Have her record their meeting, hear their conversations and listen for yourself. Two things could happen:

1. She will refuse to do it because she knows she won't get what you need to hear because he isn't harassing her and they are still flirty and inappropriate with each other.

2. She will do it and get the evidence she needs he is harassing her and / or getting retribution on her for breaking it off. Now you have real evidence to file a complaint.

Either way, you win. You get your answers.

I had an issue with a superior like this, though I wasn't sleeping with him - he just kept hitting on me. Not a CHANCE IN HELL I subjected myself to ongoing 1:1 meetings with him. It was impossible. Not sure how or why she would subject herself to that.

But if this were me, I could give a rat's ass about the job and the drama this was creating - I would walk. She isn't walking because the job and attention from boss man means more to her than you.

Sorry, that's just the way it is.

She is still playing you. Have you noticed that nothing you've asked for that will show she's not still involved with the OM has been accepted much less done. You need to make her go away and move on or you will be miserable for the rest of your time with her, guaranteed.

BS replies only

[This message edited by SI Staff at 6:57 PM, November 13th (Sunday)]

I'm glad you started posting in the BM thread, it's an awesome bunch of guys!

How are you feeling today?

I don't see any purpose for a VAR when she's at work...especially when she's having her meeting with OM. While TOC's two possibilities are possible, it's just as likely she will inform OM of the VAR, and they will basically put on a good show for you. One where she is super professional, and he is as.well. Lulling you into a false sense of security. Meanwhile,they're holding hands and laughing about fooling you the whole time.

Tell her she has until the end of today to go to HR...And THAT is the time for the VAR to be on.

The VAR might work in her car, because even when cheaters work together, they can't say everything they want to say at work. The car is a secret place they can talk, on the phone or in person.

But really, I asked the question a few days ago, when it was said about the other man "three times" he has continued inappropriate interactions when she supposedly said stop, and I asked is three times some magic number? It was said she would go to HR now because it was three times. And now is four times or five times or maybe you are reaching the point where you can't keep track of all the inappropriate contact going on.

What comes next is, she will just stop telling you about it. She doesn't want to quit, she doesn't want to tell HR, and eventually she will just stop telling you about other man's continued advances, she will tell you "he stopped doing that" when you ask and otherwise she will remain silent.

Now, as far as how she feels about other man. I don't know how she feels NOW. But I can guess. But first, I know fairly certain how she felt about him in the past. She found him attractive enough, she liked his HUMOR, his BOLDNESS, his POWER in relation to her position, his UNDERSTANDING, his DESIRE for her. She loves to feel desired and feminine and SPECIAL, and he was doing that for her.

Now if this happened before, even if it completely went away now, it can be rekindled over time. Especially since at home all she has to deal with is you and your nagging and really, I don't want to sound mean, but lack of power and boldness, as you ask for the same thing over and over and over, and nothing happens. Like, "I reallllly mean it this time."

September 21:

I told her I need her to not work for her boss anymore ...

she was going to request a boss change at work. She told me she was committed to trying to make this work.

I know, I know. She spoke with him back then and he gave her some answer that amounted to him proposing a shift in how the reporting structure works, blah blah blah. Nothing is going to come from that.

I decided to not take charge last night and instead took my mind off everything by going out with a friend for the evening. Was really really nice and gave me 4 hours of distraction from the hell that is my life 24/7.

I know I'm just postponing this shit and driving myself more insane but I think I can make it fine until MC this Tuesday and just reiterate this need and bring up how long it's been since I told her what I needed. My friend is a special ed teacher and he cautioned that the most unproductive things happen when parents get the plan from him and then do tons of research and do something different than the plan at home. I can see what he is saying. The message has to be clear and the same every time (pick MC or you guys basically). I think this has to come at MC atm since that is what was decided last week, so we are all on the same page.

OM is not meeting with her today at all and will be traveling next week, so it will be a week to see how much better I feel not having to think about him and her at work. I am anticipating it being great and will bring that up on Tuesday as well.

I was reading other threads this morning on here and I really liked the one about remorse and crying. I was having trouble differentiating remorse and just general sadness of the situation. I like that remorse is when she puts her needs behind mind and makes meaningful change that I can see (i.e. doing the dirty work of telling HR/quitting, figuring out "Why", making changes to her lifestyle and personality to better herself etc). It's like you guys have been saying; I'm not in R, she's not remorseful yet and the fog is still there somewhat.

Here's to a good weekend (helping my parents move into their new house :) ) and a good start to next week. I'm going to be focusing more on the 180 more and nice guy shit so that should take a bunch of energy too (less spent on the A itself the better I think, it's not productive). Thanks again and I'll report back when I have something meaningful to report.

Man, I just don't get it.

Why do you need the MC to give her approval for your ww to do the right thing for your marriage, and you(go to HR)...or for the MC to tell your ww what needs to be done?

This is your marriage. Your ww. Your needs. Why do you need the MC to basically make your wife do the right thing?

If your cheating wife needs to be told how, and when, to do the right thing to protect her marriage,and her husband, then you might as well file for divorce. Your wife is an adult. She is capable of making decisions on her own. She doesn't need to be told what to do here. She knows what needs to be done...yet if she can get the MC to allow her to put this off...she's going to jump all over that...And you're just going to sit there and allow it??

Are you afraid of your wife? Why are you hesitant to assert your needs here??

You're right. You're nowhere near R. Your wife is nowhere near remorseful. The best way to break her fog is freaking exposure. Consequences. Period. And if you're not going to stand up and try and save your marriage by exposing this affair, and giving her consequences, then why do you expect this woman, your wife who thinks lying and cheating is ok, to do any different?

Your friend meant well...but this is not a classroom full of special needs children. This is your marriage..Your ww continues to see her OM every day. They continue to interact. Your ww is doing all she can to protect her reputation(funny how that matters now)..And the OM. Yes..that's right...because by putting off going to HR she is absolutely protecting her boyfriend. Again, your friend meant well, but this is infidelity. Not a teacher student situation.

You have a forum full of people...page after page of people who have been through this shit...giving you the same advice over and over...And you're basically ignoring it all. Yes, it's frustrating. Most marriage therapists don't handle infidelity well...spend some time here..And you will see that. And anyone who has not lived this, doesn't understand it. But you're allowing this friend, and the MC to advise you to continue to be a doormat.

Stop it.

[This message edited by confused615 at 1:19 PM, November 11th (Friday)]

Keep writing here, but I think you are going to make yourself sick.

The MC does not have YOUR best interest in mind.

Your wife cannot continue working under these conditions and the worst thing you have done is to continually draw lines in the sand and then forget them every time they are crossed.

It seems to be that your wife is still in the affair, you wrote she is still in the fog...the fog of what, the affair.

She went to him and cried and let him put his arm around her to comfort her.

How much more of this can you take.

The OM is traveling next week, big deal, that means he will be back in a week.

When is your wife's next out of town business trip planned, then what.

You went out with friends and forgot about the situation for 4 hours...then what, you still have to deal with it.

Your wife needs to quit this job right now, or you need to go to HR, right now.

your wife lost the opportunity to have boss in her life as a respectful boss when she had an affair with him.

you keep trying to un-fuck the goat. cant be done.

Your MC does not have the power to set your boundaries for you. Only you do. Just as only you can hold them firm and act as you see fit if they are kept or broken. Your MC was never part of your M.

Many MCs are incredibily tunnel visioned with regard to saving the M, whether it is healthy or not. It is kind of a simple truth that you cannot have a healthy M unless both of the parties involved are healthy. Which is why many, many times you will read veteran posters on here telling newbies that it is way too early for MC, the first triage for getting the 2 people healthy is IC. IC for the WS to get to the bottom of their crazy, IC for the BS for trauma recovery. Putting a crazy WC and a traumatized BS in the same room with a MC and expecting some sort of magic to occur and a HEALTHY M to result early on without IC is not at all the best gamble.

We had an MC early on that liked to coddle my WH so that he wouldn't run from his guilt, shame, blame, crazy.... So the MC went way, way too soft on him, which completely sent me through the roof. This was after we both had gone to IC for a while, WH was still going. We fired that guy. Actually, I fired that guy. We shopped 2 more before we found one we thought we could be understood and helped by.

You need to find your righteous anger, and quit worrying about your WW reaction. She's not invested in the M. She wants to keep her job, her access to OM, and you're supposed to be ok with that because the MC says so? Let him marry your wife and live like that. You can choose not to. DO NOT TRY TO NICE HER INTO REMORSE. It doesn't work that way.

You deserve better. You are the prize, not the cheater.

[This message edited by JustWow at 7:31 AM, November 12th (Saturday)]

With regard to HR, you know, you can always report this situation to HR. See, the company is required to adequately supervise its employees. And since this OM boss has already had previous complaints, and here he has acted again with your WW and won't stop, says that company is not adequately supervising that man. Whether she is a willing participant or not, he is in a position of power and making advances in a workplace where he has already been an offender. The company is not supervising him adequately. And you have been harmed by their lack of supervision. You have cause to take action against them.

So, whether your WW wants to report him or not, you certainly can.

Desert,

All-in-all I think you are doing OK.

Not great, but OK.

Even regarding HR and your MC.

I have compared getting out of infidelity as a journey. It’s a very long and complex journey. Maybe even an expedition. It can’t be rushed and you have to tick every single box and pass every milestone and landmark along the way. One thing unique about the journey is that you have immense leeway in when and how you tick the boxes and pass those stones.

You and your wife have made progress… but she’s stalling at passing some milestones and ticking some boxes.

Since this is a long-term journey then going slow isn’t really the worst problem. What is worse is losing momentum… Like right now her insistence (and yours btw) of hanging onto the HR issue with no resolve… That your car’s tires spinning in the mud. You spend a lot of energy not getting anywhere and eventually you run out of gas.

Your MC is correct. If you force her to go to HR and she loses her job she might feel resentment towards you. However, I think the MC isn’t realizing the REAL problem. If you resent her for not going to HR and if she resents you for making you go to HR… then you two aren’t working towards the same goal…

THAT is the problem. You two don’t see the problem your marriage faces the same, and you two aren’t working to the same goal.

That’s what I would talk about at the next MC session. Ask the MC what the purpose is for the sessions: Is it to make you live with the fact your wife had an affair? Is it to enable you both to live with each other with what’s missing? Or is it to help you two create an ideal marriage?

Ask that he helps you find a common goal.

One VERY important factor in any journey is the destination. Not less important is knowing where you set forth from. If your wife isn’t clear on the damage done and thinks the affair is a slight blimp… then you two aren’t setting off from the same point.

Acknowledge that she might have resentment if you “force” her to do something, but ask if you might not have resentment if she doesn’t show she REALLY wants to save the marriage.

Look Desert – IF this works. IF you reconcile… then you two will be married for 40+ years. With luck and immense work one of you will bury the other, frail with old age and carrying a lifetime of memories. If it’s her standing over your grave, then the job she held in 2016 won’t even LIST in those memories. Your MC is not a career specialist or a financial planner. Loss of income, negative impact on career… those have no factor in what you two need to do to save the marriage. It’s all about setting a course to a destination that’s know to both of you.

Be honest. Make it clear that you realize that if she wants to cheat then she can, even if OM and she aren’t working together. Make it clear that removing OM from the job won’t necessarily make things easier or guarantee reconciliation. But her reluctance and actions… they too make you doubt if reconciliation is possible anyways.

Thanks a lot guys! Bigger- you're spot on as usual.

We both had a great weekend! Did some fun things and had some great, open conversations. I explained some more about HR and her needing to do some dirty work in REALLY taking a hard look at her inner self and seeing what is broken in there that allowed this to happen. She said that in regards to HR she didn't want to resent me if something bad happened and I responded by telling her that it shouldn't matter, that she needs to tell HR for more than me (our marriage requires it and she should want to remove herself from this creep). I also told her that any resentment she would feel is an entirely selfish emotion, as I had nothing to do with her decision to cheat and this is simply a consequence of her decision. It is her mess that she started and it's hers to take responsibility for. I also asked that if I divorced her tomorrow would she still want to go to HR to get away from this guy and she said she would, so I asked her what she was waiting for. The longer she puts it off the less it can be about his unwanted advances and becomes much more about simply reporting the A.

We've been listening to a few podcasts that have been helpful as well. "Healing Broken Trust" has been great. They speak a lot about negative cycles that existed prior to A and negative cycles that have been caused by A and how to avoid them to have better communication. If you guys haven't listened to it and are interested, I have found it great.

We agreed to talk about all this on Tuesday with MC. I love that piece about my resentment about her not owning this and will definitely phrase it as such on Tuesday. It's super accurate and it shouldn't be just about her job/reputation and whatnot. She forfeited the right to either of those things when she decided to cheat at work. I'll report back on Tuesday how things went and hopefully we can get out of this holding pattern and start moving on.

I also think that I need to tell her that R is a gift I am giving to her, it's not something that is easy for me to do, so she should think of it that way. It's the nicest present she will ever get (if she truly wants to stay married to me) and she needs to understand that for me to give it she has to do a few things that are hard to do.

To me the stuff about HR and MC suggestions and 1-on-1 is a lot of semantics. It really comes back to one simple thing:

NC

Your marriage and possible R will only have a chance when there is no further contact with OM.

The back and forth and maybe going to HR has gone on long enough. Why not tell her to quit or you're tapping out.

No Contact is what you need. No exceptions. Is the marriage worth more than tha job? She can get another job. You have the right to require immediate NC. Do it today.

Why do you have to wait to discuss this...again...in MC? The only reason to wait is so the MC can tell.you to give her more time, in case she resents you one day.

Why are her feelings more important?

Honestly...I think you're being played. I don't think the affair ended. You have zero proof that it's over. She is basically refusing to tell HR. I don't believe,at this point, it's because she is so afraid she might get fired. I mean, really, if she truly cared about that, she never would have had an affair with him. She doesn't want to go to HR because she's protecting him. She's telling you she wants to...but words mean nothing. Her actions show you she has no desire to out the OM. She is putting him before you..again.

I'm sorry to say it, but I agree with Confused615.

I would think that after betraying you, your wife would be eager to do anything to show that she wants you and understands the damage she's done. I see absolutely no reason for her not telling HR except for the fact that she's protecting her boss. If you're going to wait to go before the MC, I would say that. Couch it by describing how YOU feel.

Your MC and your wife are coming up with reasons to not do things in deference to your wife's feelings. What about yours? Explain that you are feeling resentment that your wife and now the MC is counseling not to expose her boss despite the fact that you've been cheated on. Don't let her play the victim. You should play the victim. mention in MC that you're thinking of giving up. That apparently your feelings don't matter much. Your MC is trying to keep the marriage together and worried about your wife's resentment. Flip that. Stop being "all in." Let the MC understand that you're thinking of throwing in the towel. See how he and your wife respond to that. If they don't care. Then you'll have your answer.

good luck.

[This message edited by mike7 at 4:09 PM, November 14th (Monday)]

So just to be clear... at the end of September your wife tells you that she has cheated with her boss, has lined up a place to move out to (so YOU can figure things out), AND presents you with a "list" of things she thinks needs to be works on in the marriage.

Since that date she has done basically NOTHING and frankly it does not seem like you are being very forceful in demanding changes be made.

Who knows if the affair is still going on or not... whatvyoundo absolutely know is that she is much more interested in protecting her boss and her reputation at work than fixing the mess her infidelity has caused.

At this point you need to draw your line in the sand... she is willing to fix this or she is not. As long as she is sitting in the fence and avoiding consequences AND one or the other of them are working there, I don't see a very good path to reconciliation for you.

All right! She is going to HR tomorrow morning, first thing. This is her letter to HR that she has drafted to send out to them after her meeting. Would you guys mind taking a look and see if there is anything amiss? I would greatly appreciate it. She is going to prepare a clear timeline of events and print out her text exchanges where she told him to stop. Thanks so much!

Dear HR,

I am writing to make a formal complaint on the behavior of my direct manager, POS OM, along with a request to report to a different manager.

In late June, shortly after I started reporting to OM, we traveled together to Louisiana to do research on the rewrite project. One night while there, we got intoxicated and slept together. After that interaction, it was clear from OM’s actions and remarks that he was interested in being more than just my manager. At the time, and as his subordinate, I was unsure how to react so I tolerated the behavior and even responded to some of the inappropriate advances (flirting and kissing). During this time, I ensured that these interactions had no negative effect on the quality of my work.

However, over the following two months, I began to feel more and more uncomfortable with the situation so, in mid-September, I asked OM to stop all advances and made it clear that this was over. Shortly thereafter, he resumed saying things that made me feel uncomfortable (for example, complimenting me on my looks, making inappropriate comments, and attempting to strike up personal conversations), despite my repeated warnings that I was not okay with this type of behavior anymore and to keep all interactions strictly work-related. During a meeting with OM on Friday, November 4th, he made me feel very uncomfortable by saying that I could get others to work on my project because I’m “pretty”, and then asked me repeatedly for a hug, which I said no to many times. This type of behavior has continued and, most recently, in a meeting with OM on Wednesday, November 9th, he requested again to give me a hug, repeatedly, to which I said no, at which point he ignored the request and put his arm around my shoulders.

At this point, I do not feel comfortable reporting to or working with OM. I know I made a huge mistake, both professionally and personally, and that my involvement in the above interactions should have been reported immediately to HR. I truly hoped that my clearly telling OM that this was over would have ended things completely and that we could resume a professional work relationship. However, this has proved to be incorrect, and I feel that both the company’s best interests, and my own wellbeing, are no longer being served.

As such, I do not feel comfortable or safe working with OM, and I am looking for HR’s guidance on how best to proceed.

Please let me know if I can provide any further details on the situation.

Sincerely,

WW