SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I have never seen a thread stray so far from the OP situation. It's just a bunch of arguing over things we are not likely to ever agree on.

If someone IS an outlier, why keep badgering him that soon he will regret his choices? Even if he isn't, (and I think he is, I think the high income and educational status of the two of them DOES change the dynamics), clearly he's got to learn this on his own.

I hope TTA posts new threads for new questions or situations. I truly wish him the best. But I'm going to go find some thread where I feel that I can offer some real help and advice.

I agree Jbrent. This isn't Chifrudo's first attack against someone who doesn't agree with R. I know personally as I was on the receiving end as well.

I agree Jbrent that few on this forum or this board have shown the knowledge of Stretch, even though we have an excellent crew here and some very knowledgable people. Even TTA is appreciative. Isn't that what matters ?

I am fearful the increasing attacks against Stretch has chased him from this board at a time when TTA could use his expertise the most.

Also, not getting warned for generalizations requires only adding a few words and understanding the mindset of this board . Stretch knows this now and it's not like most of us haven't been warned. I have checked out the research on infidelity and Stretch has it nailed to a 'T'. The researchers know the 'facts' but in a forum like this, it has to be presented in a way that doesn't lump everyone in the same boat. However, that doesn't make Stretch wrong, in fact, most of what he says is correct. People sometimes want sensitivity over the truth. Sad.

I do agree with the mod's assertion that not one size fits all, hence the generalization rule. I get it and agree with it but it's hard because as a society, we all speak in general terms at times and coming to this board as anew poster like Stretch did requires a learning curve. He's a good man, we need him here

[This message edited by Western at 8:18 PM, February 19th (Friday)]

I say this with all due respect Chifrudo, there is actually a terms to explain both yours and TTA's situations and thats called "outliers".

Maybe your "outlier" is their "central to my way of thinking" where the rest of the universe is off to one side. Casting someone as an outlier...why do that? Why not accept them as there are?

I agree with The Drifter that some things can't be rushed, particularly with affairs of the heart. The bets have been placed, now time must pass to see what we will see.

Sending strength, TTA. Just keep devoted to the truth.

he casted Chifrudo as an outlier because Chifrudo made an inappropriate attack on Stretch IMO

I agree with Jbrent on calling that out but I don't want to get banned so I am going to exit stage left.

Just pray Stretch comes back because the guy knows his stuff.

[This message edited by Western at 9:12 PM, February 19th (Friday)]

The point that I was trying to illustrate is that you can't refute something because your experience differs from the normal pattern of behavior. I'm a African American male with two bachelors degrees and a masters. If you were to apply Chirfrudo's logic, it would be no different than me refuting a claim that most african american males in this country don't graduate college because I graduated college, when in reality only 33% of african american males graduate college.

I have read multiple studies that have supported everything Stretch said. I don't think he posted what he posted to try to piss people off, but it seems a few posters took it offense to it. The point I'm trying to make is just because something makes people feel uncomfortable and just because someone's experience differs, doesn't mean it's not true. Now I'm going to respectfully walk away from this thread. If anyone took offense to what I said, it was not my intention to be in any way shape or form disrespectful.

Wow, never seen one of those warnings before in the year that I have been reading this sites forums

TTA, you have pretty much had your plan of action determined from page six of this thread

You have impressed many in the way that you took some important steps before coming to this forum

As I said before, nothing about an affair is typical; you will know how to deal with your particular and unique relationship with your wife once you know the results of the polygraph

TTA, please keep posting and please also remember the golden rule of any forum, that is;

Take from it what you want and discard the rest

Do not feel that you need to justify your decisions or actions and respond to every post that may seem to criticize

Remember, that you are you and you will deal with this in the way that you deem fit

And remember, as in all cases of disaster management the actions are

1 Containment = stop the affair = Done

2 Damage Assessment = Know the Truth = Work in Progress

3 Decide to Repair or Renew = R or D = Yet to be Determined

wk55hn

Take a look at your motivations of staying faithful over the years.

As you think about yourself, then think about your wife. You can even sit with her and listen to your "mindset" vs. hers.

You both took a vow of faithfulness.

When opportunity arrived, did you refrain out of:

A. Ethics/character/keep your vow?

B. Thought you would get caught?

C. Thought you wouldn't get caught but even then it wasn't worth the risk of consequences (damaged marriage/possible divorce/kids-family knowing)?

D. Thought if you did get caught you would get divorced?

E. You did not even think about your wife or marriage, you just didn't want to be anyone but your wife?

F. You just believe strongly that cheating is wrong?

G. You believe in God and believe it is a grave sin?

H. You never feel attracted to the opposite sex?

You get the idea.

I thought about these motivations and "why's" for myself saying "no" to opportunities while my wife did give in. I found looking at myself vs. my wife to be useful to look at what we both truly believe in and/or where we have serious differences. There were either serious differences or a huge breakdown in her values.

My family was the core of my life. If she says she didn't even think about you when she cheated or that it "wasn't about you," that is very telling about her core focus at that time. Neither might be her case, but be some other outlook of how she thought about you while this happened. I think her values about vows, marriage, meaning of love, faithfulness are important to at least know about our unfaithful wives to go forward.

WK55,

The above was contained some really thoughtful question. What's really interesting is that I had recently read a survey on infidelity, for what they are worth, said that 70% of men, and over 50% of women ADMITTED that they would have a fling if there was 100% chance they would not get caught.

I'd believe I refrained because of your point A & F. It certainly was not because I thought I wojuld get caught or that I could not be attracted to any other woman. There is nothing wrong with my eyesight.

I am going to discuss this with her this week as a kind of exercise. Thank you for posting it.

Let me say this, stretch was dead on in describing both of my ex-wives behaviors both before, during an after their affairs were outed. My second marriage, my wife was brought up in desperate poverty, on relief, food stamps, the whole nine yards. I wrongly thought that I would give her anything she wanted that was in my power thinking she needed that an that she would appreciate that. I let her make most of the decisions vacations, what restaurants to go to, managing the money etc. An over time she gradually lost respect an attraction to me. Now the affair she had was all on her. That being said my actions did set the stage for it. She mistook my kindness as weakness. Stretch again is so dead on in my opinion an experince . It would be a shame if he stopped posting.

SI is an excellent resource for ALL the people who come here for help and I certainly don't want to CAUSE a kerfuffle over my posts. I understand the CONFLICT some of my posts are causing the moderators over their 'rules of generalizations'. I want to explain why that happens with some of (many of) my posts.

I had two formal years of a Psychiatric Residency before switching to Internal Medicine. But I never lost my interest in my first love....and willingly incorporated that interest and a lifetime of further study when that interest became needed, useful and practical during my years of medical practice. I am what is called a follower of the school of Analytical Psychology, founded by Carl Jung. Two of his great disciples were Erich Neumann and James Hillman (some of their ideas on the 'feminine' inform much of my approach in getting to a correct understanding of......"THE COLLECTIVE UNCONSCIOUS". Now before you all roll your eyes, this does not mean what it seems to mean.....i.e we are all unconsciously connected. Instead, think of the 'DNA of the Psyche of EVERYONE' (thus the word 'collective'). In short, The Archetypal model. Our commonality, imbedded as we are in our culture....produce recognizable patterns of behavior .....and yes things are different in the Western World and say Asia....but differences ARE lessening with time and cultural mixing.....but still I would be far less effective practicing in a foreign culture to my experience. Archetypical does mean Generalization. The post just above, by jtom attests to a validity in HIS CASE. But, my recent post got that Archetype wrong for TTA. He is a man more concerned that his wife had NOT formed a strong emotional attachment to her OM. He can get by the sex, but had she fallen in love with her OM ......that, I believe, would be his deal breaker.

It was my job for many years to probe my patients and put forth models for the behavior that was at concern. It would not help much for me to TELL him what he should do if he did recognize a behavior, but rather if was effective to get him to understand the behavior dynamics of all the parties in the matter being examined. If I HIT on what he felt had been happening......or just touched on it, he could then proceed, figure out and formulate all HE thought about it, come to a decision how he wanted to proceed, and then perhaps I could help or lay out a path he could follow (one that allowed him to double back as much as he needed to re-visit previously decided things that maybe he then wanted to re-consider).

By the way, there are enough posters here that I can show you ALL the elements of nearly everything I say in our other posters comments. I do, however, STRONGLY disagree with the stringent 'ropes' the moderators, administrators, etc. seem to have against.......I know they will deny this......the "Pro D Crowd". But that is a mistake. Please, I ask you to understand that their comments will get a BS to D on their say so. Believe me they take what THEY find useful and leave the rest. But their comments, just like the 'Pro R Crowd' are material for the BS to scrutinize. And frankly there are more R advocates here than D advocates......and yes, I will again generalize, W will more often advocate R.....they will, however not as frequently

advocate R when there is a BW. And sure BH may more frequently call for D. But you know what?.... the people here, coming for help get it....they really do....trust them more. Do keep things civil as that is very if not most important....but lighten up on castigating language to those you feel are offending your.......and I will say it.......personal (derived from your own experiences) sensibilities. I have been doing IC, intense IC and MC since 1979. I get dozens and dozens of messages and cards, especially around Christmas from many of my old patients who went on to be physically well for years and from those whose relationships I helped them maintain or amicably dissolve.....an often overlooked element of MC.

I have only been here a short time and IT IS CLEAR (from just a few words what is the intent of the Powers around here....words like 'NOW' and 'HELL' clearly punctuate their regard for their unfortunate imperial concept of their status.....things can be done more effectively, IMO, with a more judicious manner.

Have only been on a few threads....Mr Spock's two threads were ones I got to the central problem quickly and hopefully helped him get past a three year block. TTA knows what he is doing and fully understands what he is in and his plan is about to be implemented. He will do well as while he is somewhat emotionally down but remains overall emotionally heathy and is analytical with his wife and will not unduly suffer if her behavior repeats......as he will be out. Walloped the same, but with such a heartbreaking experience with children....some still young he will need much time to get to a better place. But he understands himself, the most important thing.

I assume the moderators will not take kindly to this post, but that is on them......sure they can read into this I don't PARTICULARLY think they are erudite about infidelity.....but you know what? If that is the case....that maybe I am NOT WRONG..... they can correct that.....as there are a lot of important books, articles, studies etc. out there. If they pitch me, .........so be it.......then goodbye all and thanks for all the kind words from many of you....also a thanks to those not agreeing with me who also posted. It is all a process. stretch

Stretch, all of your discussion on behavior in the large would be fascinating and appropriate in a broad topic thread in the General forum. Recommend you start one there?

TTA, one of the reasons my wife and I stayed together is because we are both stubborn and not into quitting and accepting defeat, even when we are the potential cause of our own demise. Humans can be self-contradictory like that.

Curious as to how much your wife sees a crumbling marriage as personal failure, a permanent black mark on who she is, and if that helps motivate her to un-#$% the situation she put you guys in and save the marriage, thereby helping to save herself. Hopefully the answer is yes.

Sending strength!

I do give a shit about if she had feelings, and I mean real romantic feelings which she claims no. i hope you or anyone does not think I am that stupid to thing she HATED him but fucked him more than once, but that is a long way from wanting to be with him on any sort of regular basis.

There are a lot of emotional shades between being entirely FWB with him and being ready to leave you for him because he is her soulmate.

A big part of your decision to R is because you think that it was just sex without emotions involved. The quoted text above makes me think that it isn't the case and you seem to have some doubts about the nature of relationship between the two of them.

As far as what would be the number of times. If it was 5 i don't give a shit, if it was 7 I don't give a shit. I don;t give a shit where he ejaculated or how many times, and I don;t give a shit about how big or small his dick was.

I think it matters in that it might prove that she is capable of still lying to you...That would be a bigger problem IMO.

[This message edited by kimichi at 12:07 AM, February 22nd (Monday)]

TTA seems much more accepting of the sexual component than many BH's. When the sex is not the dominant issue for a BH I think he has a much better chance for a successful R. For those of us that can't get past the sex I think R is a complete waste of time and emotional energy.

STRETCH,

I hope you do not get booted from off. I find a lot of what you say pertinent, maybe a little too clinical but well thought out an stated.

When you state "he knows what he is doing", I do not know how anyone knows what he is doing for SURE in something like this. All I know is that I refuse to let this destroy the remainder of my life with my wife IF there is no more . I HAVE weighed the pros and cons of many of the actions recommended ( like quitting her job, telling the family, etc), and in that sense I do know what I think and am doing in my opinion.

HOP

Your statement about quitting and being stubborn resonates. I think anyone who is very competitive by nature, especially in competitive sports like we both have been, has a "no quit" and stubborn streak in them, so maybe that is good if that is what helped you .

I do not think my wife would have characterized the marriage as crumbling. Please do not get the impression she is just wandering around here as if nothing is a big deal. She knows she has fucked up big time, acknowledges it without trying to place any blame on me, and has asked what I want her to do to try to help me. SHE HAS REFUSED NOTHING I HAVE ASKED FOR TO THIS POINT. I do not know about the permanant "black" mark in that I do not think that she feels that she should be shot a dawn but she is not trying to rugsweep anything . She has been impatient in wanting to get this polygraph done, and there is a possibility I guess that she thinks she will be "in the clear" if she passes. I'll have to deal with that if it is the case.

KIMICHI,

Yes there are different shades of FWB and "soulmate". My statement about her not hating him was just trying to make you understand that I would not accept any silly explanation that she "hated" the sex like some WW spout out when they try to downplay what they have done. Your statement that "she might prove capable of lying to you" is true. If I could make a certain and definitive statement about what would happen in the future I would need to thought or advice. I would then know. NOTHING IS CERTAIN, and no matter what I do or she does, what I or any BH thinks about that will be based on BEST gut guess and some hope. I have no crystal ball. That is why some of us cannot R and some can make the attempt. If a person cannot get past that statement that '"she could" then D is the only option.

She WILL have the chance again, if not with this OM but with any of the huge amount of men, many very successful that she meets in her job. And without her job, she will still have that same chance any time she goes to the gym or out of the house. It takes very little for a woman who looks like her to get laid if she wants to. Happens all the time with SAHM with tennis coaches, kids coaches, and guys who are met from just leaving the house.

What I am convinced of, as surely as anyone can be, is that this OM will not be looking for any more. I assume one of the reasons that wee tell the OBS is to improve the odds of it not happening again. I have an ongoing dialogue with OBS, and I know for a fact he is in total "repair" mode, and I can afford to hire a PI if I want to carry it a step further.

DRIFTER,

I get what you are saying but I do want to clarify. No one should use the term ACCEPTING of the sex as a description of how I feel. If I felt that way I could just as easily say lets have an open marriage and have out fun. All I am saying is I am not aging here awake 24/7 reliving every moment of her sex with him, mind movies if you will. Some thing they will come. To date ,no. I have been able to function sexually with her, maybe not as emotionally into it as before, but no ED problems ( knock on wood). That does not mean I approve or am accepting it happening ever again.

It's now time to focus on the polygraph, the discussion after, the understanding of expectations moving forward if there is a forward, the girlfriends ,, and our trying to solve this riddle to avoid a repeat performance. N more OM are acceptable.

I just want to go back to the job situation. My wife and this OM are in same level with different bosses. If either of their bosses quit, get fired, or get promoted, BOTH my wife and OM will most likely be considered for a promotion. He actually is probably her biggest competition. If OM's boss quit, my wife could not take the job because it would require relocation accross the country. If my wife boss was not there anymore, OM WOULD want the job because his wife does not work and he is the sole support. If he became her boss she knows and has stated that she would have to resign the next day. I would not tolerate them working together regularly under any circumstances.

Than you again for your input. Once again, I just cannot dwell on the words 'NEVER POSSIBLE" because I do not believe that can ever be achieved with ABSOLTE CERTAINTY". I never thought I would be here, but I am.

If I were you, I would let OM think that you are exposing him at work. Maybe you can push him into quitting the job at the same company. He will survive.

What do you think will happen if you report to the HR ? I am asking this in terms of your wife's reaction.

KIMICHI

f I were you, I would let OM think that you are exposing him at work. Maybe you can push him into quitting the job at the same company. He will survive.

What do you think will happen if you report to the HR ? I am asking this in terms of your wife's reaction.

I have a couple of reasons why I would not do the above:

(1) I do not think it is good to make threats I cannot or will not follow through on. If I expose him at work, it means I expose my wife also. Right now, as I have explained I do not want her out of work just to get back at him.

(2) If she cannot keep his penis out of her, then she can have him. But he is not leaving his family for my wife, and my wife does not want his family. SHE IS NOT IN LOVE WITH HIM. i guess you will just have to believe that.

(3) he is the type of guy who will leave anyway if he does not get what he wants career wise. i have hot shots like him that work for me. I know what happens. One or two promotions that he does not get, and he is looking.

I know you do not understand it, but OM is not my major concern right now. He is already scared shitless and has been even when this was going on. Scared enough to quit???/ I do not know.

My MAJOR concern now is getting the total truth ( I think I have it), and figuring out what after all the other opportunities was the reason my WW crossed the line at this time and with this guy when there was so much less risk with someone she just met while travelling.

I cannot believe this is the first attractive man who even hit on her. I know that is not the case. I've seen it with my own eyes.

TTA

You do know what you are doing now.

The OM is not the problem nor your problem.

The problem lies within your wife.

She cheated. She has lied. And she really wants to keep intact her "image".

The image of wife, mother and good woman.

And that my friend is where you need her to focus.

Keep going. You will get there. Hopefully your wife will get there with you....

HM

TTA the polygraph is imminent we know, but have you set a date yet?

The examiner will help you craft the questions

I do believe that once you have this done, then removing that uncertainty will afford you some relief

TTA,

What are you doing outside this board to process and deal with your wife's infidelity? I understand the whirlwind this can be, but you need to focus on yourself as well.

TTA,

What are you doing outside this board to process and deal with your wife's infidelity? I understand the whirlwind this can be, but you need to focus on yourself as well.