SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Thanks for answering, both of you! Walloped, I understand what you are saying; it wasn't so much looking for a "better" so much as letting an emotional attachment deepen to the point that a physical affair was do-able for her.

TTA, I wasn't implying that your wife was out looking -- from all you say I doubt that. It just started as a natural part of being "business-friendly" and then got a momentum of its own from the attraction, etc.

That's the part I meant: some call it boundaries, I am saying that to be a wife you can trust she has to reach a point where she just isn't open to anything beyond being friendly because she has chosen you for life. Even if someone blindly attractive and rich and a fit for her in every way comes along, it doesn't matter, it is irrelevant because she is with you.

Holding that mindset and boundary can be tough in a real life with real frustrations and disappointments along the way. Finding out why she wandered across that boundary is the critical question.

AS I said, great job so far; everyone chooses their own path and in my own I decided to move on pretty rapidly once an affair came out. That worked out well for all concerned. I think you are well started on the hard investment into restarting your marriage. Hope it pays off! (Sorry, startups are my life, I like the idea of a startup marriage as opposed to saying the old one is dead and a new one is born or such. Startups have high risks and high potential rewards...)

TTA, do you actually have proof that it was 6 times ? Have you thought about the number that would have broken the camel's back ?

Also, how is she doing these days ? Has anything changed ?

A lot of very good posts in the last day. Let's look at the pro R and Pro D camps attitudes...specific to the BH with no kids or with an empty nest. The Pro D overlook how hard it is to uproot the H from his life. They overlook how dependent men are on a long time wife. From emotional bond, to social circle, to meals, to sex, to running the house, shopping for food, supplies, to not even knowing how to do laundry. Sometimes we get helpless. Add in the prospects of a man having to attract another woman for sex.....who really does not someone other than his previous chaste wife ......now gone Wayward. These factors all drive the BH to R.

The Pro R overlook basic human nature. Walloped articulated the ideal Reconciling BH whose goal is no punishment / consequences for the WW. Problem is in 40 years I found only some......and they generally perished into failed R .....often without D.....a fate worse than death. They failed from unexpected reactions of the WW. Everyone here has heard of the cliche, "No Good Deed Goes Unpunished". RESENTMENT! How long before the chastened WW begins to RESENT her PERFECT BH, who never punished her? I can tell you......it is about 3 years. Coincidently (NO!) criminals consider sentences under 3 years eminently "doable". Beyond that they worry.

In time the WW, doing everything right, develops an inferiority complex to their angel BH. Their reaction takes many forms, incompatibility, infidelity, distance / drying up of communication. The perfect husband does not understand why this has developed as they did everything perfect to effect a good R and a "stronger" marriage. Please remember the prime personality weakness in the WW......SELFISHNESS. They often chafe under the comparison of their character and their husband's. Another significant factor is the evolutionary differences between males and females. They can perfectly intellectualize their husbands mercy, goodness, and great character. They will often state in the early period after DD that they KNOW their husband is a "much better person than they are"......so, "Please, please give me another chance, I will make it up to you", "I will never do this again" (this is accompanied....ALWAYS with a flood of tears....a virtual river of tears. Then massive amounts of SEX....XXX RATED as they have recently had much practice of this variant of sweet marital love making. I hate to tell you this but as crazy as you want to believe it not true. They see you wanting to R as WEAKNESS. Why? It is evolution....far too complex to enter into here and many of you will sit up and RAGE how it is not the case. Please read up on the matter. As examples look at many threads......Spaceghost and DoneGone's wives were NEVER, NEVER, more attracted to their husbands that got rid of them. Unfortunately many women want what is not given to them. And R is by definition GIVEN to the WW by the BH. We are case specific here (WW / BH).

So? Do you D?.....Not if you don't want to. And R should not be endless "I am so sorry I did this to you, I love you". Ideally we don't want to extract consequences from the WW we love so deeply. But if you DON'T.....you won't get the R that will work for both of you. What those consequences are is an enormous subject that will vary from couple to couple. They are designed to make the BH "feel" that some justice has been done. The Purists will decry that....very loudly. As an example, D then R......sometimes the parties are free to see other people....even a legal separation, see others, see if maybe you can be happy with a new mate.....will never know unless you try. The experience for the WW contemplating the BH ....even ethically sleeping with other people.....drives home the pain she put him through. How does this help? People are not saints, and even the Perfect R ..BH.......a few years down the road can and will often develop great resentment as the fWW is praised for her re-habilitation (if others even know she strayed) while the BH triggers while watching his fWW enjoying the life experiences he can only find triggers in. Consequences do not need to be draconian but BH are flesh and blood and suffer for years....and this brings forth un-intended consequences to both partners. stretch

Not a t/j as this pertains to a way to handle TTA R. On Walloped's active thread in General, French 123 just put up a terrific and long post that gives yet another variant on how to handle R. Summary : Goes into the book Sperm Wars as background for infidelity then advises what he did facing his WW. Go back in but hold something back so if the Titanic goes down again you don't go down with the ship. He dispels the now Gospel in many forums about how many/ most women always say they, "Want an extremely sensitive and vulnerable man that opens up to them about everything"......He does so by stating the FACT, such excess behavior will drive her to another man fast.....show too much weakness (sensitivity and vulnerability and they see weakness! I KNOW there will be many here that will state that is NOT a weakness! And guess what....THEY ARE RIGHT!!......intellectually......problem is instinctually many/ most women don't "feel" what they intellectualize about this subject. stretch

Yo stretch, while I'm not up to date on the goings-on, your generalizations made me nauseous.

Very interesting points Stretch.

I have been reading a bit of evolutionary psychology. Your descriptions and clinical experience with these situations seems to confirm what the biological sciences are now saying.

Garlic Bread......let me give an example of male vs female evolutionary divergence. Maybe it will spur you to study the issues that allow for many generalizations applicable to the two sexes. I dealt with these issues for over 40 years as a Physician with a Psychiatric background and a specialty in Internal Medicine.

We all know in a forum like this that the BW usually is much more upset by any deep emotional connection her WH has with the OW than with the sex. We also know the BH.....as crazy as it seems at first thought......is MUCH more upset over the sex his WW had with the OM. Think about that in its implication. He will R far easier if the sex was very minor, even if the WW declares she was SO IN LOVE WITH HER OM!

Why is this so? Because of our different strategies as two sexes in the evolutionary mission to propel our genes into the future. I am not going to give you a lesson in Evolution (Please read Darwin's : "On The Origin Of Species", published in Nov. of 1859....an incidentally read in 1860 by Abraham Lincoln....for that). The short but accurate answer is that for the male excluding his mate from other sperm insures his genes go into the future to the maximum extent. For the female, excluding her mate from forming strong emotional attachments to other females insures all the resources he can supply for her children (her genes ticket into the future).

Now these days there are many more exceptions due to culture and changes in thinking, but the old drives still predominate. As a corollary to understanding this, women cheat more frequently around ovulation, if not suppressed by contraception hormones. Women also are biologically driven to cheat to gain variety in their offspring's gene diversity or to gain genes from a 'stronger' younger, more fit male. Many women in our age pursue rich, powerful men to insure their offspring's success at the same time even cuckolding these men....all strategies to propel their genes forward. They are not conscious of this. The males and females instead feel jealousy and lust and attraction and a myriad of other emotions.......that all serve their genes.

A touch of levity to lighten things. Some women nowadays say they don't need a powerful man anymore, after all this is the 21st century! What they need is a Geek that can get their sex tapes off the internet. stretch

I am just writing to wish my heartfelt best wishes as you prepare for the poly. You seem like a really good guy and I hope that it all works out for you

Notperfect5, I just read your story. It's truly horrifying and I don't know what to say except that you have my sympathy and condolences. Your story is surreal it's so awful. My best wishes to you too.

The Pro D overlook how hard it is to uproot the H from his life.

First, I must admit that I am a huge Stretch fan. However, I must take issue with a portion of a recent post. Actually –it is just one troubling word – overlook. There seems a subtle underlying theme in this thread (the thread as a whole – not Stretch’s posts ) that those who chose divorce took the easy way out.

I can absolutely assure you that we who have chosen to divorce have not overlooked the magnificent difficulty and pain of uprooting our lives. Myself and many friends I made on these very boards reluctantly and with tremendous deliberation chose divorce. As an individual who was in a long and seemingly lovely marriage, I can tell you that I don’t overlook ANY aspect of what makes the betrayed long to stay in their marriage. Hopefully, everyone who follows and posts to this thread understands the grave sacrifice TTA would make should he decide to divorce.

But I can also not overlook what constitutes and strong and loving and supportive marriage. The components of trust, support and steadfast love cannot be overlooked. We, as the betrayed, must dig deep and see if we can remain in partnership once these elements are crushed. We must determine if the cheater can, once again, truly and absolutely offer these essential behaviors to our satisfaction.

TTA – I understand your desire to reconcile and I (for what it’s worth) support your tenacity and commitment. I admire not only how clear headed you are but how you have become a student of understanding this hell you’ve entered. This thread is filled with people who truly wish the best for you and hope you achieve the end result that will give you the greatest peace. Yes, there are posters that are coming from two distinct camps but please know that ultimately, everyone who has followed this thread has affection for you and wants you to have the most successful outcome.

Stretch...

Your "facts" are nothing more than massive generalizations and they need to stop.

Please review the Guidelines to the left in the yellow box.

I have been following two threads in particular that reinforce my feeling that rushing into therapy is not always the cure all.

I agree, There are those who do fine without counseling. I dont know the specific examples your reading but from my 5 years on this board I can say counseling for a WS who doesnt want to do the work is useless and probably was in those cases. Counseling for your WS is no way to judge success, changes in their mindset and behaviors are the only way to truly see if they are worth keeping around. But if you read my comment carefully. I spoke to counseling for YOU, so you can sort through what you want and make decisions. What is best for you. If its not counseling than how will you work and digest through this shit sandwich you have been handed, and from my experience swallowing it only gets harder over the next 3.5 years. You need help to do it, to find your way.

I know you dont know my story, its dead and buried 5 years of boards ago. But I can say there are alot of similarities/differences in all our stories. Getting questioned, working through those questions, digging into the whys of your answers, that is where healing lies. So basing decisions on the one or more of the 75 page deep examples on this board is not a model for success in my mind. But the marriages that get put back together and survive have very common themes regardless of circumstance. I hope you go polly and it shows this is what you think it is. But then what are your expectations for a wife going forward? Would you accept the marriage you had prior to this? how will you eat the shit sandwich? or will you just ignore it because it was a one off and continue a marriage that is broken.

*** Please note, none of this post is about your WS, I am worried solely on how you heal and move through this. I hope you focus you on the same, then make decisions about marriages WS etc down the line. Your doing great, Keep questioning and pushing for what YOU want and need. But do it with eyes wide open.

I don't know. Reading some of these post from some people just makes you want to give up on life. Unbelievable. I feel sorry for those who are really hurting and really need help. Some of it is such doom and gloom talk, why even bother. I hope people are strong enough to realize these are just peoples opinions and hold no more weight than that of any other individual. Their opinions are formed by their experiences and it doesn't make them any kind of experts. In fact as I see it , it has the potential of doing more harm.

Sorry just had to vent as I see more and more of this so called expert talk. Your no expert.

Stretch,

I'm right there with you, but as you can see, there are quite a few "here" that don't wanna pick up what you're putting down. Never the less, I for one appreciate your "generalizations".

Some of it is such doom and gloom talk, why even bother. I hope people are strong enough to realize these are just peoples opinions

I agree.

TTA has a plan that he is acting on and step 1 is the polygraph, depending how that works out, he will then decide his next step.

Sounds like he is in control of his situation, doing what he feels is best for his situation and taking it one step at a time.

stretch - do what you have to do in order to keep posting here. Your experience and wisdom are incredibly valuable to a BS and it would be a huge loss if you go away. Find out what the moderator objects to so you can modify as required.

TTA: There are many of us BH's who have learned first-hand that denial and rugsweeping will not result in true R. The other thing we have learned is that no BH will call their behavior denial/rugsweeping while they are doing it. A BH is in such a panicked, vulnerable state of mind they are desperate to find a strategy that keeps his wife from leaving for good AND promises to put his life back to "normal".

I am now convinced that there is nothing any of us can tell you that will shortcut this process. It is something you have to learn for yourself and, when you do, come back and read this thread over again. Unless the BH makes a major discovery like she's still at it with OM or another OM, it usually takes a couple months or so before doubts start to creep into BH's mind that maybe, just maybe all of this has damaged him much more than he thought.

Unless the BH makes a major discovery like she's still at it with OM or another OM, it usually takes a couple months or so before doubts start to creep into BH's mind that maybe, just maybe all of this has damaged him much more than he thought.

Which is why the polygraph should help a great deal.

Yes, a year later, it seems as if nothing is better, because one minute you are fine, mowing the lawn or something and you feel great, and then it is like you suddenly remember why you were so miserable. It takes a long time to ever get over an affair. And it is doubtful many WSs realize this or come close to realizing the extreme damage their affair has caused.

I think Stretch's analysis was brilliant. I know he got flagged for 'generalizations' but he is new here and I am sure he will make adjustments in the future to his posts as not to do that. I too got hit once for generalizations.

Stretch, your contributions to this thread are magnificent. Please keep up the good work. As the Drifter said, PM or email the administrator to see what the objection was so you can adjust. IMO, they truly want you to help TTA as much as you can and IMO you are helping him more than anyone here.

STRETCH

First, I appreciate your thoughts, but I guess you better make sure you obey the rules that Deeply Scared mentioned. I hope to continue to hear from you.

Let's look at the pro R and Pro D camps attitudes...specific to the BH with no kids or with an empty nest. The Pro D overlook how hard it is to uproot the H from his life. They overlook how dependent men are on a long time wife. From emotional bond, to social circle, to meals, to sex, to running the house, shopping for food, supplies, to not even knowing how to do laundry. Sometimes we get helpless. Add in the prospects of a man having to attract another woman for sex.....who really does not someone other than his previous chaste wife ......now gone Wayward. These factors all drive the BH to R.

The above is very interesting, but but I am afraid I do not fit the mold. I AM NOT HELPLESS PERTAINING TO ANY OF THE THINGS YOU MENTIONED.

I have read a book called "His needs, Her needs" where it states a mans PRIMARY need in a relationship is SEX. I agree that a lot of these threads where the BH tolerates MULTIPLE AFFAIRS, ONGOING AFFAIRS, BREAKING NC MULTIPLE TIMES, AND ALL SORTS OF OTHER MENTAL ABUSE but just cannot leave are caused by exactly what you say.

Stretch, I am 6'3" tall, 230 pounds with very little body fat, have a very good job and a lot of income, and not being able to find a woman to have sex with or who would want to be with me is NOT something I am at all worried about.

And I am just the opposite on the other thing you mentioned to Garlic Bread I think. The sex does not bother me as much as the deceit and betrayal. So maybe I am the crazy one.

Walloped's wife, as he stated, could never have done what she did WITHOUT an emotional connection, which is probably more the norm. my wife's attitude was more in line with what would typically be stereotyped as a man's attitude. I think we as guys are ingrained with the thought process that our wives aren't supposed to be that primal. We are to play that role.

If i understand it right, you are telling Walloped that his wife will turn to resentment because he is being a good guy. not sure i agree with that one.

Interesting conversation though. Walloped may certainly not have been able to R with my wife, and I could not r with his. If I heard the "I thought i was in love with him", GAME OVER.

KIMICHI

I answered your question about the 6 times in a PM. To the best that I have been able to piece it together, it was no more than that and it was not every time they went to a meeting and it did not start the first time they met. As someone said it progressed probably as most d, small talk, to interest and then you know the rest. As far as what would be the number of times. If it was 5 i don't give a shit, if it was 7 I don't give a shit. I don;t give a shit where he ejaculated or how many times, and I don;t give a shit about how big or small his dick was.

I do give a shit about if she had feelings, and I mean real romantic feelings which she claims no. i hope you or anyone does not think I am that stupid to thing she HATED him but fucked him more than once, but that is a long way from wanting to be with him on any sort of regular basis.

SELF RESCUER

As an individual who was in a long and seemingly lovely marriage, I can tell you that I don’t overlook ANY aspect of what makes the betrayed long to stay in their marriage. Hopefully, everyone who follows and posts to this thread understands the grave sacrifice TTA would make should he decide to divorce.

Actually, the sacrifice has not really entered my mind at least not much. I believe NP5 and Walloped, with little kids and 5 of them in the family, have had a much more difficult thing to consider on the sacrifice thing than me. Unless my wife wanted to be a true idiot and pay attorneys a lot of money, maybe we both would have to work past 55 ( which would be no problem now) but the financial sacrifice would be miniscule compared to what most folks face, especially with young children.

TTA – I understand your desire to reconcile and I (for what it’s worth) support your tenacity and commitment. I admire not only how clear headed you are but how you have become a student of understanding this hell you’ve entered. This thread is filled with people who truly wish the best for you and hope you achieve the end result that will give you the greatest peace. Yes, there are posters that are coming from two distinct camps but please know that ultimately, everyone who has followed this thread has affection for you and wants you to have the most successful outcome.

Self, I do not know how clear headed I am. There are obviously some here who think I probably should be put in a straight jacket for stupidity and that I am destined to hell on earth for not just dropping the papers on her and walking away. The reason i do keep responding is because after getting REALLY pissed off initially I do understand that there are some folks on here who have endured shit that makes my story look like child's play. Why the hell would anyone stay on here and keep posting if they were not in their own way trying to help.

99lawdog

I don't know. Reading some of these post from some people just makes you want to give up on life. Unbelievable. I feel sorry for those who are really hurting and really need help. Some of it is such doom and gloom talk, why even bother. I hope people are strong enough to realize these are just peoples opinions and hold no more weight than that of any other individual. Their opinions are formed by their experiences and it doesn't make them any kind of experts. In fact as I see it , it has the potential of doing more harm.

Sorry just had to vent as I see more and more of this so called expert talk. Your no expert.

I am not giving up on life. Mine is too good no matter what happens here. I still love my wife and I hope I can work through this with her. I have no illusions that this affair is going to improve our marriage. That does not mean we can't recover.

CRAIG

TTA has a plan that he is acting on and step 1 is the polygraph, depending how that works out, he will then decide his next step.

Sounds like he is in control of his situation, doing what he feels is best for his situation and taking it one step at a time.

I do have a plan. I implemented part 1 when I outed OM to his wife, and I believe stopped this from progressing any further. How can anyone go any further until that happens

Part 2 is the polygraph. Assuming that goes OK, Part 3 will be establishing expectations and committments. And Part 4 will be putting the plan into action and reviewing and tweaking it as necessary.

Where it seems to me that everyone gets tangled up in their underwear is on the search for the magic bullet that is an ironclad guarantee that it can never happen again. That is where the differences in each of us come into play.

Some of us will succeed, others who may do more things "right" will get whacked again.

I learned in business and all the competitive sports I played growing up and in college that all you can do is try your best and hold your head high when you walk off the field. That is what I am trying to do.

I am grateful for everyones input. Having all of the different opinios does make one think.

Stretch, I am 6'3" tall, 230 pounds with very little body fat, have a very good job and a lot of income, and not being able to find a woman to have sex with or who would want to be with me is NOT something I am at all worried about.

And I am just the opposite on the other thing you mentioned to Garlic Bread I think. The sex does not bother me as much as the deceit and betrayal. So maybe I am the crazy one.

^^^^ this is why Stretch's posts and others that utilize gender-based generalizations are against guidelines and utter crap, to boot. They employ tired stereotypes that happen to be true a certain percentage of the time. Presenting them as some kind of studied fact and universal wisdom is noxious and unhelpful.

TTA - you are not at all crazy. You are one of many, many examples of why the "truth" of "men care about the sex and women care about the emotion" is horseshit. I'm another example. Of course the sex my wife had bothered me. But I got over that pretty quickly. She had sex with others before marriage, in the end this was one more guy. But the lies and calculated betrayal? Those plague me deeply and daily. They are the source of my ongoing pain. Conversely, there are countless examples of women on this board who are tortured by the sex. The sex causes them to get mind movies, feel emasculated (or whatever the female word for that is), and suffer terrible self-esteem issues. The male/female split on the importance of sex is way, way overstated.

Here is another one: women need to detach emotionally from their spouses in order to have an affair and men don't. I actually think this one is true most of the time and much can be learned from this fact. But it is not true even close to all of the time and presenting it as "the truth" in all situations is completely wrong-headed. My wife never wanted to leave me. Un-fucking-believably she actually became more emotionally connected to me during the affair. Make no mistake, her betrayal of me was complete. But it never involved "true love" or anything beyond sexual infatuation for her AP. Your wife may have been similar.

And another: all waywards, especially women, were deeply emotionally emeshed with their AP and are desperate to contact them. Again, this one has a good measure of truth in many, if not most, situations. But it wasn't true for my wife or many others. They dropped their AP like the turd they were.

Having said all this, there is one universal truth I can sign onto: waywards have inside them a brokenness that enabled and drove their affair. This brokenness must be address or the odds of cheating again are very high. 100%? Well, I don't know the number and no one else does either. But I'd bet my life savings it is a damn high number. Addressing this brokenness requires monumental effort on the part of the WS. I'm sure it has been done without IC, but probably not many times. The level of introspection, defenselessness, selflessness, and self awareness required to do this solo is just too rare. These are also traits that don't typically reside in someone who has an affair.

P.S. If anyone thinks I'm making myself or my wife out to be a special snowflake, I can promise you this is not the truth. She did me deeply wrong and she cut me completely. The misery in my early posts prove it more than anything I could say here.

[This message edited by chifrudo at 5:33 PM, February 19th (Friday)]

I say this with all due respect Chifrudo, there is actually a terms to explain both yours and TTA's situations and thats called "outliers". Some people do deviate from the norm, but for the most part, human behavior is very predictable. We are able to draw this predictions because of years of observations. I don't think Stretch was pulling things out of thin air. Many (and I mean many) social, developmental, and evolutionary psychologists have stated the exact same things Stretch was saying through careful observations of human behavior over decades. I'm going to leave it at that because I'm not trying to open a can of worms, but quite honestly I do agree with everything Stretch posted.