SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Maybe she is losing respect for you right now as you try to appease her.

Not maybe. It is actively taking place. She has shit tested you and you have repeatedly disappointed her inner desire to see you stand up for yourself.

divorce sucks for me economically.

Same for me. And there’s nothing wrong with staying for financial reasons. But be honest with yourself about that.

However, do yourself a favor: do a thoughtful visualization exercise where you imagine yourself in specific detail living in a shitty apartment and driving a rust bucket car (this won’t actually happen but imagine it anyway). Imagine you’re having to eat Snack Ramen every night and sleep on a futon, or just a sleeping bag.

I did this. I can tell you it’s liberating. I can tell you this vision literally didn’t bother me. I would be fine with it. Because I would still have my integrity — and my free will.

As the Proverb says better to live in a corner of the roof than with a contentious woman.

Told her he deserves to know and that he is being denied agency in his relationship. She will not tell him or try to convince her sister to tell him. Says she must keep confidence with her sister. I told her I don't approve.

Oh well. That’s settled then. You’ve done everything you can.

TIF,

Had a read thru your recent posts, and it looks like you are making up reasons for staying with your WW.

Not being critical, but just wondering, are you afraid of what the future will look like without your WW? Is that why you are dragging your feet with taking steps to get out of Infidelity? Is that why you are willing to compromise your own values?

It is normal to fear the unknown, but to live in its shadow for the rest of your life would be a disservice to yourself.

You do not have to go full throttle into D, but you should start taking positive steps to go forward with your life.

Was going to suggest that you file first, and have the R run in parallel (you can stop the D process), and do not cave halfway through, and lose the marriage chicken game again.

You will need to figure out what you want to get out of staying with a WS that does not respect you. She concedes the smaller things, whilst you give excuses for her to let go on the larger things.

Why are you the one putting in the effort on trying to save the M, whilst she goes on with her life? She should be moving mountains to make YOU feel safe, not the other way around.

BS should never chase WS, as this will give the WS more power and control, and the BS loses their self-respect/esteem, thereby devaluing themselves in the eyes of the WS.

[This message edited by RocketRaccoon at 3:31 AM, February 6th (Thursday)]

Just some notes...

"My current goal is to help work her head out of her ass on the job."

This isn't your responsibility. You say jump; she jumps. Otherwise you impose prior established consequences. That ship may have sailed?

"As my patience wears down, divorce will look better than recovery."

Using divorce fallout and other things as excuses, makes me wonder if you're co-dependent.

"I hope when the switch flips, I don't have a big resistance to it."

I suspect it may already have tried to flip.

"My mind says I already should have done it. My heart says not yet."

We all go/went through this. The difference in outcome is divided between the emotionally weak and the emotionally strong. Our hearts lied to all of us. Mistakes happen when we know it's lying to us but we choose to keep listening to it anyway.

The path you're on doesn't seem to be taking you where you want to go. Rather than continuing to do the same thing hoping for different results, why not try something new. Taking charge, laying down the law, not allowing dissent, enforcing consequences, filing for divorce, and taking your life back might be good for starters.

Take care of yourself.

Oh well. That’s settled then. You’ve done everything you can.

@Thumos, you understand that TIF has the BIL's phone number, right?

@TIF, you HAVE to tell your BIL about the affair. HAVE TO. Not just to save your BIL but also to save yourself. Every day you wait is another day that your self-respect is eroding.

Agreed. Your sister could go so far as counseling her sister to come clean, but if she agreed to confidentiality, your telling your BIL allows her to keep her end of the bargain and to get the right info to your BIL.

But what does her unwillingness to break confidentiality say about her candidacy for R? She owes loyalty to her sister, but I think she owes more loyalty to you. At least I think my W owes more loyalty to me than to her sister. The last time a conflict between the 2 of us came up, my W chose her sister, I blew up, and I'm confident she won't choose her sister over me again. (We've only had one conflict in our decades together.)

Coupled with your W's refusal to get a similar job for more pay and fewer demands on her ... I'm not convinced she's R material.

What do you see in her that makes you think R is possible?

Not being critical, but just wondering, are you afraid of what the future will look like without your WW? Is that why you are dragging your feet with taking steps to get out of Infidelity? Is that why you are willing to compromise your own values?

I'm not afraid of the future without her. I wrote out what I imagined that would be like taking multiple factors into account. I have a pros and cons list. Overall, staying with her looks better. It's not fear, it's a weighed out projection of the future.
To make it clear, if I divorce her I will not be destitute. I'll get fucked over, since that is the way of the system. Even getting fucked over, I'll be fine. I make very good money in my job and can afford our house without her income, and could pay her out on a refinance. It's not clear if I would be the primary caretaker of the children or if she would. My state is prone to do 60/40 splits since they have observed 50/50 splits seem to have worse effects on the kids and the schedules are hard to pull off. I'm a fully capable parent and would be happy to be the primary caretaker. I would accept being the secondary caretaker.
Unlike other here that maybe "have given stuff up" for being married, that just isn't true for me. I have tons of hobbies, and my wife has always been supportive of them. I exercise on the regular, running 5k every morning on weekdays. Lifting twice a week. I participate in Rugby, including the socials (drink ups). I do some woodworking. I built a treehouse for my kids. I play video games. So it's not like I feel I'm under some oppressive weight of an unfair marriage on top of the infidelity. The infidelity is almost literally the only problem.
Fun fact: we haven't had a major fight about anything prior to the infidelity. It's not because we rugsweep either. We are just generally well aligned on major decisions and make rational decisions together. Where to move, what house to buy, major purchases, home remodels, how many kids, when to have kids, how to raise kids, shared non-religion... Sure there are plenty of "compatible" people out there, but the reality is my WW and I are very compatible. So I wouldn't call it "fear" of losing that. A measured response proportional to the perceived cost of finding another person that works so well with me, yes.
Compromising my values is a little tough for me. The messages about me becoming covered in my WW's moral filth are tough to swallow, but I feel are correct. Maybe it's worthwhile to explore my overall value system a little bit.
Broadly speaking, I subscribe to a set of values that are utilitarian adjusted by voluntaryism. I think the words Thumos might use are "solipsistic utilitarianism". What does that mean? It means that I believe people should do what feels good for the most amount of people so long as they aren't forcing it on others. My objection to my wife's betrayal and lying is that it is against our marital contract we voluntarily entered. My SIL/BIL are currently living in a broken contract that the BIL doesn't know about. I could be seen as being morally justified in telling him because I'm simply giving him his agency. The alternative point, brought up by PassThis, is that I'm breaking my voluntary contract with my wife to provide this information. Realistically, if I believed this would create the most good, I should just formally break the contract with a divorce.

It is normal to fear the unknown, but to live in its shadow for the rest of your life would be a disservice to yourself.
You do not have to go full throttle into D, but you should start taking positive steps to go forward with your life.
Was going to suggest that you file first, and have the R run in parallel (you can stop the D process), and do not cave halfway through, and lose the marriage chicken game again.

Here you say, don't go full throttle into divorce but to file and then not lose. Sure I wish I could do that. I think in my case, when I file it's over. There will not be R.
Do you have any other "positive steps" I can take that aren't divorce?
That's what I'm trying to do in giving constant reminders about my wants and feelings to my WW. I know, it's just talk. What are some actions?

You will need to figure out what you want to get out of staying with a WS that does not respect you. She concedes the smaller things, whilst you give excuses for her to let go on the larger things.

I've outlined the value I see in the overall quality of the relationship I have with my wife.

Why are you the one putting in the effort on trying to save the M, whilst she goes on with her life? She should be moving mountains to make YOU feel safe, not the other way around.

I agree she should be moving mountains and is not. I've told her this, again, words not actions. I've told her multiple times that I feel she has done the bare minimum and that she should not just be doing more she should be asking what more she could be doing. She isn't. That's the problem here. It's glaring one, I know.

BS should never chase WS, as this will give the WS more power and control, and the BS loses their self-respect/esteem, thereby devaluing themselves in the eyes of the WS.

Whoever wants the relationship less has the power don't they. That's the whole point of the hard 180 and filing for divorce even if you don't want it. I just feel that once I do file, I won't turn back. It's going to be complete detachment and separation.
Like many people on here, what I would have told you before all of this is something naive like, "well first of all, my wife would never do that." Then follow it up with, "Since I believe in integrity and truth, I would have to divorce her if she did. In my experience once someone is willing to lie about something that big, there is no coming back from it."
I end up actually getting hurt. Thinking that divorce would likely happen based on her initial response. Her seeming to have a better response shortly thereafter. Then walking back to a middle ground between her absolute shit response and what I wanted. So then being in the thick of it, it feels more fluid. From a completely logical outside perspective I can see the risks I'm taking, and that logically they are likely poor risks to take. I've been there since page 19 or 20.
Progress isn't linear they say. So, I'm going to go in this circle a while longer. I'm going to push for what I want and see if if the loop breaks or not.

[This message restored by Webmaster at 3:54 PM, Wednesday, May 19th]

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 6:52 PM, Wednesday, September 16th]

While I can legitimately see the comparison being made in reference to whom she owes more loyalty, I would think the more important evaluation is how loyal she is to truth.

It is clear she values outcome over integrity...truth...honesty. Whether she is doing it out of loyalty to her sister or weakness/fear of doing the right thing matters little.

If this were isolated, it could potentially be far less of a problem.

Given her history of infidelity, it indicates a pattern of someone who is simply not trustworthy. When added to her "do nothing" response to TIF's needs, it paints the picture of someone who is at best broken and at worst morally bankrupt.

The alternative point, brought up by PassThis, is that I'm breaking my voluntary contract with my wife to provide this information. Realistically, if I believed this would create the most good, I should just formally break the contract with a divorce.

except this concept is arbitrary and holds no value outside of what you placed on it at the time, it's perfectly reasonable (and honestly silly not to) to adjust your personal value of this based on new information. So here it sits acting as a convenient foil to move the moral goal posts wherever feels the best.

It means that I believe people should do what feels good for the most amount of people so long as they aren't forcing it on others.

Given feeling good is subjective this hinges on all people acting in the best interests of others at all times, which is not happening anywhere, ever. Outside of the perfect scenario above using it as a guiding principle is going to get you used.

In addition, some people just shouldn't feel good with their decisions, there's a reason most of the time. That shitty feeling is generally some of the motivation to be better person.

I just feel that once I do file, I won't turn back. It's going to be complete detachment and separation.

You seem to lack certainty pretty much everywhere else, why so certain about this?

[This message edited by Skadu at 2:07 PM, February 6th (Thursday)]

TIF,

You are caught in “Analysis, Paralysis” Virtually everyone on here is telling you the same thing, yet you stay in the circular argument with us and yourself as a way of not really having to deal, confront and move forward. Your pros and cons, balance sheets and analysis of the situation is all coming from your left brain which of course makes it much easier to not feel the pain of betrayal, limbo and move to get out of it. Stop all the mental gymnastics and move forward.

Broadly speaking, I subscribe to a set of values that are utilitarian adjusted by voluntaryism. I think the words Thumos might use are "solipsistic utilitarianism". What does that mean? It means that I believe people should do what feels good for the most amount of people so long as they aren't forcing it on others. My objection to my wife's betrayal and lying is that it is against our marital contract we voluntarily entered. My SIL/BIL are currently living in a broken contract that the BIL doesn't know about. I could be seen as being morally justified in telling him because I'm simply giving him his agency. The alternative point, brought up by PassThis, is that I'm breaking my voluntary contract with my wife to provide this information. Realistically, if I believed this would create the most good, I should just formally break the contract with a divorce.

So what you are saying here is that you are willing to give up your moral integrity and live in WW's and sister's moral filth just to keep the peace with your WW. Basically you are putting your balls in your wife's purse. This is extremely disappointing. You know @TIF, both you AND your wife are losing respect for you every day you decide that this is OK for you.

This is also Wayward Thinking on your own part too. It is how people get into affairs in the first place 'well I said I wouldn't cross that line but now here I am, maybe it isn't so bad for now' The difference here is that it is your WW who keeps pulling you over these lines. And you keep going with it. You haven't successfully stood up to her about ANYTHING.

Meanwhile your WW doesn't seem to be doing the bare minimum, she doesn't seem to be doing ANYTHING. She gets to keep the marriage, her job, AND her sister's secret. I mean, you protest about things but she just ignores it, because she knows you won't do anything.

If you were to tell your BIL though, that would send a wake-up call to WW that she better get with the program ASAP.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 2:34 PM, February 6th (Thursday)]

I agree she should be moving mountains and is not. I've told her this, again, words not actions. I've told her multiple times that I feel she has done the bare minimum and that she should not just be doing more she should be asking what more she could be doing. She isn't. That's the problem here. It's glaring one, I know.

And one that won’t change because she doesn’t have to. She feels you are going to stay whether she does any of it or not.

So your choice now is if you can life with that. And not only is it living in an environment where she has daily or weekly interactions with a man she had an inappropriate relationship with (to what extent you do not know) but also an environment that she is not really doing the work to prove to you that she is safe enough to never do it again with him, or anyone else she might fancy and get close to.

None of us can make your choice to live like that or not, but you. But let’s call it what it is, you are deciding if the other things in your world are enough for you to concede that she will never make you feel safe and truly loved and truly sorry or that she cares enough about you to make you feel that way.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 2:30 PM, February 6th (Thursday)]

The quote "Rome was not built in a day" comes to mind.

Sisoon (not a lacky) posted within a week ago:

Bottom line, given that you're less than 2 months from d-day, you're in much better shape than most BSes.

TIF is dealing with a specific situation. His wife has FOO issues, anxiety issues, SIL issues, etc. We all agree that she is broken in many ways and needs to work on herself for the benefit of TIF, SIL/BIL, and herself. However, her bad acts are not the same magnitude IMHO to a wife who has been in a LT PA, or a series of PAs over a number of years/partners or ONSs. As a wayward, IMHO she seems to be on the rather mild spectrum of betrayal (acknowledging that any betrayal is still betrayal). It is my position that she needs extensive IC to help her fix her issues. IC takes time to be effective. Also, I thought it was an acceptable position to have the WW fix herself and for the BS to observe over time. "Only the WW can fix herself. The BS can not fix her." Typically a BS was advised to wait at least 6 months before he dropped the guillotine. I take issue that some are insisting that it be dropped NOW if ultimatums are not satisfied.

TIF seems to be trying to navigate his and his wife's recovery (not to be confused with reconciliation) from infidelity without alienating his wife so that reconciliation is an impossibility. If he were to be perceived by her as trying to intimidate or bully her, she would not respond favorably, or rationally. Again, IMHO.

I reject some of the posters' admonitions (some rather harshly) that TIF is without integrity. He is true to himself and his own beliefs, and IMHO property prioritizing between conflicting beliefs. Life is not always black and white and neat. Sometimes it is gray and messy. Compromises must be made to balance out conflicting goals. Some insist that he adhere only to their beliefs and act only as they would do. That is projecting their beliefs, issues, concerns, etc. on TIF. 2x4's are acceptable, but not intimidation. To those few posters who intimidate, knock it off, please.

Please give TIF the leeway and the time he needs to navigate this Titantic safely into dock, if possible. I believe that if WW does not get her head on right, TIF will do what he has to do at the appropriate time for him. I hope that his wife will be in a position that May will be just another month. If not, I will be very sad for TIF.

To a few of the posters, ""Give every man thy ear but few thy voice." (Athough Polonius may not have recognized situations for what they were, some of his advice has stood the test of time. His character was meant to be complex and, possibly, controversial)

This is just my opinion. The majority of posters have at all times provided great advice from their perspective. TIF should have the benefit of advice from all perspectives.

I will take incoming fire for this post from some few. Everyone has their right to post what they believe. I respect that. I hope that I am afforded the same courtesy. If not, I will not react, anyway.

NB: utilitarianism does not settle for "feeling" good. It is "being" good, "acting" good, and achieving the "greater good" as the measure (good = utility). The misstatement equates utilitarian concepts to the banal "feel good" philosophy espoused in the '60s (or maybe even in this decade

still), which it is not.

A BS is typically told to wait 6 months IF they have a remorseful WS, who is doing the work,and agreed to the basics like NC.

His wife is doing none of the work. She refuses to go NC. As OP has said many times, actions over words, and there has been no action.

That she has told him she believes it's ok that BIL is kept in the dark, makes it glaringly obvious that she is very much a wayward,still. That it's ok to lie to your BS, if it benefits the cheater. Given that mindset, how in the world can OP believe his wife is only speaking to OM when it's work related??

Advising BS to stay, be passive, and nice their unremorsrful WS back is advising them tonstay in an abusive relationship. And that's crap.

Do you have any other "positive steps" I can take that aren't divorce?

Absolutely.

Stop allowing her to control how this attempt at reconciliation continues.

Give her a list of your requirements. If you need NC, tell her. If you need her to behave like a woman with integrity, tell her. If you need a polygraph, tell her. And don't back down.

Stop allowing her to manipulate you.

Stop being passive.

Stop trying to nice her back.

Stop compromising your integrity.

Behave as a man who respects himself, and will accept not accept less from his wife.

Stop MC. She needs months of IC before you should even be considering MC.

The betrayed men who have posted here,over the years, who have been confident in what they need , and refuse to accept one more day of abuse, have the most successful reconciliations. Women respect decisive men. They do not respect a man who is passive and are easily manipulated. Get yourself out from under her shoe. Show her a strong man who respects himself. Then she my start to respect you again. And,if not, then that's her problem.

Absolutely.
Stop allowing her to control how this attempt at reconciliation continues.
Give her a list of your requirements. If you need NC, tell her. If you need her to behave like a woman with integrity, tell her. If you need a polygraph, tell her. And don't back down...

I don't follow. Or else what? Divorce, right?

[This message restored by Webmaster at 3:54 PM, Wednesday, May 19th]

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 6:52 PM, Wednesday, September 16th]

TIF is dealing with a specific situation. His wife has FOO issues, anxiety issues, SIL issues, etc. We all agree that she is broken in many ways and needs to work on herself for the benefit of TIF, SIL/BIL, and herself. However, her bad acts are not the same magnitude IMHO to a wife who has been in a LT PA, or a series of PAs over a number of years/partners or ONSs. As a wayward, IMHO she seems to be on the rather mild spectrum of betrayal (acknowledging that any betrayal is still betrayal). It is my position that she needs extensive IC to help her fix her issues. IC takes time to be effective. Also, I thought it was an acceptable position to have the WW fix herself and for the BS to observe over time. "Only the WW can fix herself. The BS can not fix her." Typically a BS was advised to wait at least 6 months before he dropped the guillotine. I take issue that some are insisting that it be dropped NOW if ultimatums are not satisfied.

@PassThis, I must strongly disagree with this, brother.

1. This advice seems to be implying that TIF's WW is some Special Snowflake who is more delicate than other WWs. Like she needs to be guided and reassured every few minutes just to be able to go through her day. That is just false though.

She had it in her to attract a husband and then attract an AP. And meanwhile, she also holds down a demanding job managing other people. And last but not least, she has no problems telling TIF what she is and is not willing to do.

To be saying that TIF's WW is more fragile than other WWs is only wrong but also harmful. The thinking that 'but my situation is unique and different from every other situation out there' is dangerous thinking.

2. Telling BIL of the affair would not be "throwing down the guillotine" on TIF's part. It is only standing up for what is right.

If people are coming down too harshly on @TIF it is because the path he is on right now, we don't see this ending well for him. Right now TIF is caving to EVERYTHING WW wants. If he keeps this up he will lose respect for himself and furthermore SHE will also be losing respect for him.

And by losing his integrity I am not saying TIF is a bad person for being stuck here. But, you know that feeling you get when you don't stick up for yourself or for someone when you know what is right. You know you let yourself down and you feel awful about it. That is what I think many of us are talking about.

And...lest it sound like there is a core of us who want to see WW and her sister burned on a stake...you are not doing anyone any favors--even them--by enabling their deception.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 9:16 AM, February 7th (Friday)]

You can not reconcile with an unremorsrful WS. You can help her reach remorse by refusing to tolerate her bullshit. Right now, she's had no consequences. She knows you arent going anywhere, so why should she change her mindset?

And, yes, if she refuses to do the work, continues to put you last, refuses to be a woman of integrity, won't go NC with her AP, then divorce is the healthiest choice. Or, just stay in a marriage with a woman who doesn't respect you.

I, and many others, have given you positive steps you can take to get the two of you on the path reconciliation. It's up to you to take them. Or not.

Honesty, many people here actually want you to have what you want. We want you to be able to reconcile. There may have been a few who are pushing for divorce, but most of us have been giving you advice to save your marriage.

Your wife is not a special snowflake. She has major FOO issues, but so do many of us. She is a typical cheater, making excuses and refusing to pull her head out of her ass. We have been trying to help you get her to a point that she understands what she needs to do to reconcile. You think she is unique, with unique circumstances, but she's really not. We have seen this play out over,and over. You keep getting the same advice because we know what we are talking about. We are giving you the benefit of our hard earned knowledge. We all know you can't reconcile with an an remorseful WS. You can rugsweep, go easy on the consequences, and compromise and keep eating that shit sandwich she keeps serving you. We are simply trying to help you help yourself .