SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Common requirements include:
NC - no contact with ap; if ap initiates contact, report to BS and together decide how to respond

Yes but modified, the original demand was she must look for a new job during the modified NC. She is pushing back, this is the "job" issue. It's really a true NC issue.

Transparency - BS has passwords to e-mail, voice-mail, phones, etc.; WS keeps BS informed of whereabouts, activities, and companions at all times

I have this.

Honesty - WS answers BS's questions when they're asked, although sometimes a break is necessary, sometimes an answer is best deferred to MC session, etc., no more lies.

We seem to have this, but it's impossible to know because she is a proven liar.

IC for WS - to change the thoughts and feelings that supported the A, with signed release that enables C to talk with BS about WS's goals and progress (so the BS can make sure WS's IC isn't being lied to).

I have not asked for a release to talk to her IC.

IC for BS - for support

I'm doing this and he has been helpful, even if others disagree about the FOO and anxiety issues.

MC - to help communications between the partners

And we have this.

Some (Most?) people have individual requirements - my W must arrange dates for us on a weekly basis and must initiate sex sometimes.

And I don't really need other things.
So looking at this in a sort of checklist format, I get something like 4.5/6 for a C...

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[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 6:49 PM, Wednesday, September 16th]

She is still pushing back and refusing to quit her job therefore NC FOREVER has NOT been established, which is paramount, this indicates she's putting your needs in the back burner even after her huge betrayal, after all this time, pretty much all you have is the word of a proven cheater and a liar who has not had much consequence for her A,she's not remorseful, still wayward and therefore by far not a good candidate for R by a very long shot.

Having full access to email,phone,etc, means absolutely NOTHING when the wayward still works with the AP.

So, I need to be forthright here.
Last night we did talk about the BIL situation. She said she knew more people that had affairs and their SO didn't know. Well fuck me right? I didn't ask who yet because honestly I just don't feel like I'm ready to feel my integrity shatter to pieces before my own eyes. So, I now see this as a major impediment to her ever reaching understanding. She believes it's ok for people to live a lie and I don't.
She wants to give everyone the blue pill. I have a plan on how to deal with this, but I don't really want to make it public here.
Obviously this is another pool on the ever growing moral swamp my WW is swimming in.

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[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 6:50 PM, Wednesday, September 16th]

Obviously this is another pool on the ever growing moral swamp my WW is swimming in.

It is. As painful as this is to acknowledge I think the two of you are existing in different moral universes.

Did she say whether these are other women who’ve cheated or a mix of genders she knows about?

She didn't say.
I know one of her friends was cheated on by her husband, but they already reconciled. Honestly, she gave her husband too much leeway IMO.
I suspect they are mostly women cheating on their men, but I can't say for sure because I didn't ask.
My mom is coming up to visit for the weekend and we are gonna take a break on the heavy conversation, but it will be a big topic at MC next week.

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[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 6:50 PM, Wednesday, September 16th]

The swamp your WW is swimming in isn't what is "ever growing" @ThisOisOFine, what is instead growing is your realization to how filthy it has been all along.

If you and WW have any hope of staying married to you, it is looking like at some point she will have to cut out many people in her life she currently views as friends. Sooner rather than later.

In any event, please understand that, until your BIL knows what WW's sister is up to, you have your WW's filth on you.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 4:48 PM, February 7th (Friday)]

will be a big topic at MC next week.

The same MC who wouldn’t even back you up on the job decision, right? If I were you I’d brace myself for a lot of disappointing relativism and equivocation.

More of a fact finding missing...

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[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 6:50 PM, Wednesday, September 16th]

Divorcing a morally bankrupt woman and freedom from her drama keep looking better and better. Given that she sees others cheating and considers it okay as long as the betrayed spouse doesn't find out, I continue to wonder how many affairs she had before she got caught. Take care of yourself.

Your checklist has practical requirements that are important but it lacks the emotional. She could do all those things and still not make you feel loved or wanted, and express real empathy for the pain she inflicted on you.

I believe you need far more items from those categories that ensure you can feel expressions that her heart is with you and not with him or any other AP.

I continue to wonder how many affairs she had before she got caught.

Actually considering her attitude of entitlement and what she's said about feeling aggrieved from a fake feminist standpoint, I've wondered the same thing too.

She could do all those things and still not make you feel loved or wanted, and express real empathy for the pain she inflicted on you

I feel loved and wanted. Real empathy... I don't think so. Some empathy yes. If she had real empathy she would understand why I feel she isn't doing as much as she could to re-establish trust.

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[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 6:50 PM, Wednesday, September 16th]

Real empathy... I don't think so. Some empathy yes.

Is this the kind of person you love?

Someone who can't feel or help you with your pain. Someone who isn't actively trying to fix the pain they inflicted and instead blame you?

When you get sick and she has to take care of you, will she blame you for getting sick?

What if that was the other way around?

Just some fun questions to get at the heart of whether she needs a lot of f'ing help before she Makes you forgive her.

I feel loved and wanted. Real empathy... I don't think so.

This won't work long-term.

Gently, real love is empathetic love. If love lacks empathy, it's a half love. She may love you as a provider and the father of her children -- but that isn't enough. And it won't be enough for you long-term.

You don't have to be a believer to absorb the truth of Paul's litany on love:

"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.

It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."

Do we always live up to this perfect standard of love? Of course not. But your WW has missed it by a much wider mark than most.

I'd also say based what you've reported, she's not exhibiting real love for a quality man. She's exhibiting a needy cake-eating plan A/plan B kind of half-baked "love."

There's a big difference.

[This message edited by Thumos at 6:02 PM, February 10th (Monday)]

Is this the kind of person you love?
Someone who can't feel or help you with your pain. Someone who isn't actively trying to fix the pain they inflicted and instead blame you?
When you get sick and she has to take care of you, will she blame you for getting sick?
What if that was the other way around?
Just some fun questions to get at the heart of whether she needs a lot of f'ing help before she Makes you forgive her.

She is also dealing with her own pain of her mother's suicide and how it impacts her. She is not blaming me. She does a great job taking care of me when I'm sick. I mentioned in this thread she actually helped a lot when my father passed away even though it was during the A.
Who said I had forgiven her? Forgiveness is so far away I can't even see it right now. It's so premature to talk about forgiveness. To put it into normal terms here. Right now we are in recovery (though it's going slower than I would prefer), and I hope we can work toward reconciliation. Maybe, after we R or D, forgiveness will make it's way into my mind.

I feel loved and wanted. Real empathy... I don't think so.
This won't work long-term.
Gently, real love is empathetic love. If love lacks empathy, it's a half love. She may love you as a provider and the father of her children -- but that isn't enough. And it won't be enough for you long-term.
You don't have to be a believer to absorb the truth of Paul's litany on love:
"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."
Do we always live up to this perfect standard of love? Of course not. But your WW has missed it by a much wider mark than most.
I'd also say based what you've reported, she's not exhibiting real love for a quality man. She's exhibiting a needy cake-eating plan A/plan B kind of half-baked "love."
There's a big difference.

Well, I'm going to keep working on it for now. I know SHE needs to work on it for the relationship to work. Love is patient is the first part of the verse. I'm being patient.

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[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 6:50 PM, Wednesday, September 16th]

Forgiving her makes it go quicker.

Forgiveness is for you not for her. You have to understand why she did it and forgive her for it. It doesn't mean that you accept what she did only that you understand why she did it and forgive.

I forgave my exe for what she did, I only said it to myself, since she isn't here and I am NC, but I understand why she did it. I haven't forgotten what she did but I forgive her for doing it.

The hardest thing about forgiveness is getting over the initial reaction that you’re losing your dignity by accepting the cheating.

But that’s totally wrong thinking, since you’re not condoning the behavior when you forgive.

If you don't forgive you don't start to heal.

[This message edited by sorryforeverythi at 7:22 PM, February 10th (Monday)]

I understand the why pretty well TBH.
That doesn't mean I don't resent her actions. I also am not likely to forgive for a while considering her ongoing attitude.
Not Just Friends explains that forgiveness does not need to come before R. I will consciously release my resentment after I feel she can be trusted again. Not before.

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[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 6:51 PM, Wednesday, September 16th]

Last night before bed, my WW asked what we were going to talk about at MC today. Forgive the dialog format, and this isn't direct quotes but gets across the main points and flavor of the conversation:
Me: I think you know what we need to talk about.
Her: About how to have fun and relax as a couple again, and that I finally felt relaxed over the weekend?
Me: Wow, you are way off. No, we need to talk about our differing values.
Her: Look, I was told that in confidence-
Me: It's not specifically about your sister. It's that you aren't telling people to "protect them".
Her: They are happy the way they are. It's not my business. I'm just trying to be their friends. I feel like I can't trust you to tell you about them.
Me: What? You can't trust me to keep up a lie and not tell them the truth? Do you know how backwards that sounds? Also, you're right, I would feel like I need to tell them because they deserve to know.
Her (now frustrated and defensive): Look things are complicated! It's not always black and white like you think. There are multiple relationships in the balance, and nothing is happening at all right now to those impacted by this. It's over.
Me: Ok, but you have to understand how it's basically impossible for me to rebuild trust with you when I know one of your values is to lie about infidelity to protect the apparent happiness of a relationship.
Her: I'm not lying to you about our relationship or anything about OM. I've told you the whole truth, and I'm so sorry I've hurt you. I just don't want to get mixed up in their business.
Me: I mostly believe you about our relationship, but this is an issue we need to figure out.
Her: I feel like you are just trying to go hunting for faults. I've told you whenever OM and I talk at work, I've been open with you about my feelings, I'm trying to make this work, and you are bringing up other people. We need to work on us.
Me: There is a lot of work to be done all around. (At this point I know there is no progress to me made for the rest of the conversation).
Her: Do you think that I'm a bad person.
Me: No.
Her: But you see it as a character flaw.
Me: Yes.
Her: I believe in honesty, just also loyalty. I know I betrayed both of those value in my infidelity. I'm so sorry for that. I just wish you didn't see that as part of who I am.
Me: We can just keep working on it. Goodnight.

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[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 6:51 PM, Wednesday, September 16th]

I'm sorry you have to keep dealing with this craven person. You really do deserve better dude.