SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Sorry. No surprise at what I will say. You are putting in a lot of work with a person who still sees nothing wrong with being in contact with the man she had an affair with.

As far as the issue with her cheating sister goes, As I understand it the issue you have is that she won’t force her sister to tell the BIL nor will she tell him herself nor will she condone you telling him.

That is not the position of someone who wants to change from a cheater to a healer. If it were me, I would explain that clearly to her, as you dance around it a bit in your conversation.

A reformed cheater would be honest with someone who came to them telling them about infidelity they perpetrated. And part of the work to become a fWW is to live a life of honestly from now on, no matter how hard it is to do that.

Problem is, she has no ramifications from you if she doesn’t. She gets to stay Wayward and have her husband too. Whether it’s about the Sister/BIL or the AP/work contact, right now I don’t feel she has fear of ramifications for not changing her ways.

Sending you thoughts of strength.

(ps: Post #2500 for me )

Ask her this: If your sister's husband cheated on your sister years ago, and you found out that I knew of the affair but did not tell your sister, how would you feel about that? Also ask her if you learned from me that he had an affair but the affair is now over, would you still tell your sister, or would you say nothing because it is "their business"? See what she says. Either she will stick to her guns or become a hypocrite. Then you can point out her hypocrisy if she would tell her sister of the affair, but not the BH.

Ask her this: If your sister's husband cheated on your sister years ago, and you found out that I knew of the affair but did not tell your sister, how would you feel about that? Also ask her if you learned from me that he had an affair but the affair is now over, would you still tell your sister, or would you say nothing because it is "their business"? See what she says. Either she will stick to her guns or become a hypocrite. Then you can point out her hypocrisy if she would tell her sister of the affair, but not the BH.

Frankly, there is no point in speaking about the counterfactual. There is ample evidence of her self-serving value system. It isn't hypocritical so much as entirely consistent and utilitarian. Her objective is to first protect herself, then protect her sister (or close friends), then their spouses, in that order. So in doing her hedonistic calculus, she would see that helping her sister, who she cares about more, is more important than the harm she does to the BIL, who she cares about less.
Her system isn't based on logic. Hence her argument against "black and white" value systems. "It's complicated", is just another way of saying, the hedonistic calculus will sometimes lead me one way, and sometimes another, but we can only tell once we run the numbers.

[This message restored by Webmaster at 3:52 PM, Wednesday, May 19th]

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 6:48 PM, Wednesday, September 16th]

My fww used to bring up the "do you think I am a bad person" question often. I hated it and chastised her any time she used that phrase. It is a wayward thinking phrase. The answer, either way, results in nothing of value or anything supportive of reconciliation.

The question should be, "do you trust my judgement and my ability to be a safe partner".....that is what is at issue - not the deflection of "do you think I am a bad person".

The question should be, "do you trust my judgement and my ability to be a safe partner".....that is what is at issue - not the deflection of "do you think I am a bad person".

Yep.

And @TIF in response to your WW saying "it's complicated" in regards to her sister having cheated, I would be curious what in your wife's mind--in her own words--justifies her sister cheating. Or at least, makes it more excusable. Because really, that is what "it's complicated" means, right.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 2:54 PM, February 11th (Tuesday)]

Yep.
And @TIF in response to your WW saying "it's complicated" in regards to her sister having cheated, I would be curious what in your wife's mind--in her own words--justifies her sister cheating. Or at least, makes it more excusable. Because really, that is what "it's complicated" means, right.

I mean I explained it before. My WW thinks that BIL knowing will end their M and that they are otherwise happy. I say that means SIL is stealing his time by lying to him, and my WW should encourage SIL to tell the truth and give him agency. "It's complicated" is just code for "the truth is less important than my feelings and my sister's feelings."

[This message restored by Webmaster at 3:52 PM, Wednesday, May 19th]

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 6:49 PM, Wednesday, September 16th]

Honestly, how can you listen to the crap she is saying, and not apply it to your situation, and be comfortable with her working with AP? Or believe anything she says about the affair?

She is clearly saying it's ok to lie,and what the BS doesn't know, is ok, as long as the marriage appears to be happy.

Your BIL's health is in danger. He could have been exposed to Stds. He needs to know. Period.

Gee it's almost as if she never read Linda McDonald's book about how to move from being a destroyer to a healer!

Has she read it at all?

I don't even know where to start with this continuing word salad from your wife, TIF. It's the words of a wayward gaslighter and abuser. The kind of shit she says (at least as you report it) is so manipulative and self-serving.

I can tell I had several conversations with my WW in the first year that were eerily similar - right down to the "you always see things in black and white" line. I also got the similar "me, me, me" attitude from my WW reflected in your dialogue recap (like when she said "I can finally relax again" - I mean WTF/SMH!)

The line she gave you about her sister's affair "it's in the past and they seem happy" - I hope you realize the projection and deeper meaning in these words. She wasn't just talking about your SIL's cheating -- and even if she was, who cares if it's "in the past"? We read all the time about betrayed spouses who find out years later. It's never just "in the past" once adultery has been committed.

You're headed for my territory -- limboland -- and it's a grey wasteland. Please don't join me there.

[This message edited by Thumos at 5:12 PM, February 11th (Tuesday)]

I agree w @HellFire.

You know @TIF, it would be perfectly appropriate for you to tell your WW that if SIL doesn't tell BIL, you will do so yourself.

I mean, how else do you really see things changing w your WW.

I feel like you are just trying to go hunting for faults. I've told you whenever OM and I talk at work, I've been open with you about my feelings, I'm trying to make this work, and you are bringing up other people. We need to work on us.

Just this one paragraph is so chock full of wayward thinking.

The first line is classic DARVO.

The second line translated is "I've told you I won't leave my routine run-of-the-mill job where I likely screwed another man, although I won't lift a finger to prove that to you with a poly or anything else, and now I'm still talking to him -- but I tell you about those conversations, at least when it suits me to deign to tell you."

The third line translated is, "I've been kinda sorta open with you about how I rationalized adultery, but you won't shut about it, and I also think as a woman I'm entitled to have extramarital relationships as a form of equality and empowerment. So please shut up about it."

The fourth line translated is, "I'm giving you my definition and rules for how I think this marriage should work, even though I've betrayed you and traumatized you. I refuse to do some basic things to help you heal. And yet you keep bringing up irrelevant information, such as that my sister is also an adulterer and I'm okay with that. Just eat the shit sandwich already. Choke it down so we can move on."

My WW thinks that BIL knowing will end their M and that they are otherwise happy. I say that means SIL is stealing his time by lying to him, and my WW should encourage SIL to tell the truth and give him agency. "It's complicated" is just code for "the truth is less important than my feelings and my sister's feelings."

And on top of this, your BIL is literally living a lie. He's "happy" only because he thinks he has a faithful and loyal wife. Which is not the truth.

And I don't think your wife should be looked at as the expert arbiter of "happiness." She doesn't know shit from shinola.

Honestly, how can you listen to the crap she is saying, and not apply it to your situation, and be comfortable with her working with AP? Or believe anything she says about the affair?

Your BIL's health is in danger. He could have been exposed to Stds. He needs to know. Period.

I don't want to speak for Hell Fire, but her response i think reflects what just about everyone posting here is trying to say. But I think everyone misses your point that you are OK with the current situation and are going to do absolutely nothing that irritates her.

One of the worst things and hardest to get out of is denial, and you are still clinging to the hopium that she has been honest with you. You are entitled to do that. these same people will be here trying to help when you get whacked again.

You can do your statistical analysis all you want to. The truth is you really do not want to know the truth, and with her statements and total control of the relationship you never will unless she stumbles. You are too smart to not have done something to find out what really happened. You do not even have a clue if Om is trying to mend his relationship or if he has gaslighted his wife.

There is no advice imaginable that has not been given to you and you reject it 100%.

Hopefully before she spends a few blissful nights with him in May you will wake up and get some factual answers and please stop with the analysis of percentages. Give us some credit that we are all not stupid and do not know that the statistics on anything suggested are better than gleefully accepting everything she tells you.

^^ concure brother^^^

Buffer

TIF:

you need to go read ThisIsMe's newest post in his thread, it's relevant to you.

I can’t help but think you are doing all the heavy lifting in keeping the marriage together. Meanwhile, she not only expects you to not question her and allow her to feel relaxed, but she also expects you to give her cookies for the absolute minimum of work she’s doing to keep you from leaving. She’s winning this game since it seems like it will take a lot for you to realize how lopsided and unhealthy your relationship is and leave her. Does she even wonder if you are feeling “relaxed” or is only her feeling the one she thinks worth considering?

But if the status quo is acceptable to you...

All I can say is that I once, too, thought I would do anything to save my marriage. But once I realized that my ex was more interested in doing things his way and didn’t care about how I was feeling, it was an eye opener. I didn’t want to believe he was the person he was — I had blinders on. I’m so much happier now that I’m not walking on eggshells trying to make sure his needs are always met while ignoring my own.

I don't want to speak for Hell Fire, but her response i think reflects what just about everyone posting here is trying to say. But I think everyone misses your point that you are OK with the current situation and are going to do absolutely nothing that irritates her.

I agree with everything you said @BeyondRage except possibly this--about everyone missing the point that is. I think everyone knows that @TIF has rationalized his awful situation, using his quite considerable intellect to do so. Even @TIF himself, whose posts seem to have a lot of resignation and even some self-loathing in them, knows he has been caving in. I mean, she basically broke almost EVERY condition that he set, and there he is still in this marriage.

And on top of that, he and WW are going to a counselor who seems to be taking WW's side too. According to MC she can't be made to quit her job even though she could find a better one, because her current job is "her identity" and that's that. Can you have any idea what will happen at MC when TIF brings up WW's sister's infidelity?

We are all just hoping that he wakes up. That he decides that this is completely unacceptable. And that he tells BIL what is up, for his own sake so that he is out of WW's and her sister's moral filth, and of course for BIL's sake too.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 6:01 PM, February 11th (Tuesday)]

As usual, BR is spot on again. Looking back at some older posts, TIF has already “kicked the can down the road” until the May conference where he fantasizes about serving her with divorce papers. I think he’s in this until WW decides to make the decision to leave. This is his choice and he has the only vote here.

Why on earth would she make the decision to leave. She’s doing whatever the hell she wants to , is pissing away her husbands money on some idiot therapist telling them it’s all on hubby to get over it and not hassle her , and she can see and talk to her boyfriend at work every day . And just for icing on the cake she gets to travel and stay in same hotel with OM.

Meanwhile back at the ranch, hubby stays in limbo voluntarily. She’d have to be nuts to leave

Fucking breakthrough at MC. She is talking to her sister about it.
Edit: I'll make a longer post later, but we had a set of very good conversations after IC and during MC today.
What changed? I got visibly upset.
My IC told me, it's likely she doesn't feel she needs to do more because I'm just saying I'm in pain and she doesn't actually understand it. I should try to tell her about my pain again while showing pain the way she does. Maybe you guys gave me that advice, saying I should be throwing shit against the walls or whatever. Anyways, I got visibly upset, I pounded the table, I called bullshit on her when she tried to equivocate. She still hasn't agreed to do jack shit.

[This message restored by Webmaster at 3:52 PM, Wednesday, May 19th]

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 6:49 PM, Wednesday, September 16th]

Thanks for the update, I think this sums it up:

She still hasn't agreed to do jack shit.