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I do think one day she may look back and not believe the way she's treated me (I mean SINCE D-Day) but I also suspect she's just the kind of person to fool herself yet again

Not if she doesn't go to IC and realize she even has a problem. Without even admitted she has done wrong, how can she look back and see anything honestly.

She can barely even admit to a previous affair and then drop that. She can't even see anything is wrong.

You say you are kicking the fence to get her off of the fence.

What I don't understand now is, I don't see any fence sitting. Her affair with the OM is over. Her decision is to stay with you. So there is no more fence sitting.

Your problem is what I wrote above. She sees nothing wrong in what she has done. She will most likely have another affair and you will be back at this.

Your problem is she needs to change in order to even know how to R.

So, if her affair is over, than you need to get her to fix what is broken, otherwise, I see an endless cycle.

She wont even discuss anything in a mature manner with you. And that is a very bad sign of things to continue.

I started writing this earlier but got distracted by what I'm meant to be doing right now, i.e. work.

---

I'm meeting with the CAB (Citizens Advice Bureau) tomorrow (Thursday). More advice, more questions answered, more options investigated. Maybe they can give me a list of other local solicitors who give a free consultation.

Hopefully you'll see this as moving forward, not just wanting to talk but not actually do anything.

Wednesday is my WW's day off. Her car happens to be in the garage so she's stranded at home though that is not to say she couldn't see the OM. I am of the opinion however that she hasn't since she finished with him (though I won't be devastated any more if I find out I was wrong). That 'friend' last night (the one whose driveway she used that Saturday night she left me) told me the OM has been like a bear with a sore head and that she is also of the opinion they haven't seen each other. But who to trust these days, that is the question.

I had a text from my WW almost as soon as I got to work (after dropping our boy to school), asking me to call her. Sensing it would be about her car, I called back (yes, I fell for it again). Suffice to say she then embroiled me in a conversation about everything. I KNOW!!!!!!!!! She started by saying we are just existing in the same house and not getting anywhere to which I took the bait and pointed out (again) that nothing would change all the while she refused to DO ANYTHING to make things better!!! Yes, I KNOW, A TOTAL AND UTTER WASTE OF TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not much point going over the rest of the conversation (it didn't descend into an argument) as you've heard it all before (I certainly have). I did bring up an EXTREMELY sensitive subject (for my WW) at the very end, which made her hang up on me.

Twenty minutes later, I received the following text (cue Twilight Zone music again!!)...

I just saw a mouse run across decking

Followed a couple of hours later by...

Look, I'm sorry I hung up on you earlier! Just please don't bring up that other shit, it really upsets me and makes me think you are just trying to hurt me all the more?? I really hate all this bickering between us and I know you do too

'That other shit' hasn't been worrying me ever since. Around 1999 (yep, that long ago), I clearly had reason to doubt my wife (though I no longer remember why) and did some snooping while she was at work (I can hear you all despairing right now), eventually finding a list of men's names. These were all - if I remember rightly - men at the place of work where my WW and I met. Fairly reasonably I think (I should add here that I think I already knew by then that she'd had a sexual 'relationship' - it may have just been just sex, not 'going out' or anything - with one guy there, but before we got together), I jumped to the obvious conclusion and confronted her when she got home. After a lot of tears she finally 'confessed' that she'd confided something EXTREMELY personal in these people, and needed to keep track of who knew.

Now, bear in mind, after nearly sixteen years I - her husband of seven years - only have a basic grasp on what this personal issue in her past was/is.

What's troubled me today (and please don't think this is the first time this event has come to mind in the last seven weeks) is a couple of things, namely:-

1. If this secret is SO upsetting she has never been able to tell me, then how could she have told 5/6 work colleagues who neither of us knew for more than 18 months (at a stretch)?

2. It now occurs to me (I'm obviously slow) that all the names on the list were all MEN. Surely even my WW was/is more likely to confide something so personal first and foremost in one of her girlfriends??

I have a sickening feeling today that I'm heading rapidly towards D-Day 4.

When she believed she'd been found out about her earlier affair from a couple of years ago, she confessed quite quickly. Now, this one I'd have to handle VERY carefully if I wanted to get to the truth - any mention of this one is COMPLETELY off-limits. But I do have a very, very bad feeling that this time she might confess.

I've been feeling pretty strong in the last 24 hours, and I'm not really sure what another 5/6 affairs would really matter right now. But I do know that they WOULD matter. Our entire relationship would be a farce (if it isn't already). She would have married me knowing she had already betrayed me. I would obviously conclude there is no way she could have been faithful to me from 1999 to 2011

Then again, as my WW said to me this morning, maybe I'm just being silly now, blowing everything out of all proportion...

Before you all chime in, please remember I am seeing someone tomorrow. This, if anything, is hardening my resolve even with that sick feeling in the pit of my stomach now renewed.

Dear God, I hope I'm wrong.

@craig2001:

I don't see any fence sitting. Her affair with the OM is over. Her decision is to stay with you. So there is no more fence sitting.

Your problem is what I wrote above. She sees nothing wrong in what she has done. She will most likely have another affair and you will be back at this.

As ever, you have hit the nail smack bang on the head. She seems to see nothing wrong in what she's done. (She will of course say I can't see inside her head).

Bearing in mind what I just posted about 1999, I'm now wondering what exactly my WW really means when she keeps repeating things like

'we can never get over this'

'now it's all out in the open and you've snooped, you know too much'

duplicate post

[This message edited by saveus at 10:13 AM, June 4th (Wednesday)]

I'm now wondering what exactly my WW really means when she keeps repeating things like

'we can never get over this'

'you will never forgive me'

In my experience, I heard things like that because there was *more* that I didn't know about.

I've noticed in your posts that your WW does a lot of *thinking* for you [ ****"and I know you do too"**** ] and a lot of *telling* you how you feel. That is extremely unhealthy behavior on her part.

Then again, as my WW said to me this morning, maybe I'm just being silly now, blowing everything out of all proportion...

Comments like you're blowing it all out of proportion means, you are exactly right and she is pissed off you do know.

'we can never get over this'

'you will never forgive me'

'now it's all out in the open and you've snooped, you know too much'

Means there is much more to tell you and if this little affair hurt you so much, there is no way we can get over the things you don't even know.

Certain WW, mine was one of them, have a unique way of saying the truth without even meaning to be honest. They have a way of forewarning of more terrible truths and then never getting around to admitted them.

You have to learn to really read between the lines.

First of all, tell her to never again call you before work to discuss or whine. She had all last night to do that instead of watching TV. That is damn selfish of her to call you like that right before work.

You and her were together as a couple in 1999 when these odd things happened?

Tell her you are fed up with her games, and all of the secrets.

Yes, she has probably had 5 or 6 affairs or more likely, one day stands or one night stands. Was there ever a time she didnt come home in the past not counting this latest OM.

Your wife has every sign of some sort of abuse as a child. The constant lying, constant seeking other men's validation and compartmentalizing her life.

She has to have IC to get all of this fixed.

@gonnabe2016: Thanks for your perspective. I think you're right.

@craig2001: Yes, we got together at Christmas 1998. She has stayed out of the house overnight more times than I can remember. I always trusted she was where she said she was. On your last point, you are spot on as ever - I do recall one attempt at IC on her part well over a decade ago (probably even around the millennium) which was aborted (by her) almost as soon as it began.

She has stayed out of the house overnight more times than I can remember. I always trusted she was where she said she was.

Where did she say she was all night.

I certainly heard my share or asinine excuses and lies.

I cannot think of any time a wife needs to stay out all night long unless working?

@craig2001: I'd always know she was staying out. She never sprang it on me once already out. She has friends from a previous career about 30 miles away, including her best friend. Usually she'd be out with her girlfriends there and/or going to a party. I always trusted her even if I was uneasy and never slept very well.

It's time for you to start getting fed up or mad. And when she retaliates with her comments, walk away.

Just please don't bring up that other shit, it really upsets me and makes me think you are just trying to hurt me all the more?

What makes this comment so childish, is that she is blaming you for bringing up something, when you dont even know what the hell it is you are bringing up.

If you knew the truth, you would then NOT have to bring it up.

Living the rest of your life wondering is shear hell. And no one should ever have to go through that. You can tell her, if it does any good or matters, that she can stop her attitude with you until she gives you the entire truth.

I don't know really, if you want the truth to R, just want to get divorced or what.

But I would say right now is the time to decide. Otherwise, this event will slip into the background like your suspicions of 1999 and three years ago did. Only to be brought up again and again.

Just tell her the time for talking is over and just take a polygraph. I am sure you have noticed, you and her never talk. It is start and stop and that will get you nowhere.

@craig2001

I don't know really, if you want the truth to R, just want to get divorced or what.

But I would say right now is the time to decide. Otherwise, this event will slip into the background like your suspicions of 1999 and three years ago did. Only to be brought up again and again.

I have NEVER wanted to D. I want to R but obviously cannot right now. R seems light years away. And, right here, right now, I can't see how I could get past knowing my WW has NEVER been faithful to me. There is NO WAY we can R without everything coming out & it all being dealt with. That seems an impossible dream right now.

I can't see how I could get past knowing my WW has NEVER been faithful to me. There is NO WAY we can R without everything coming out & it all being dealt with.

In a sense, you have known this since 1999 though.

But wondering and having suspicions are much different than actually knowing. Actually knowing changes a lot of thinking.

This is exactly why your wife is telling you that you can never get over this. Because she knows there is much more.

The fact that just last month she told you of that other affair, was in a way to take the focus off of her current affair.

With so many lies, it is hard for some WS's to even speak without exposing more lies, which is why they blame shift and turn the conversation back on you.

I do believe you are starting to see what is going on here. You need to tell your wife that she has got to end this cycle of lying or no one is ever going to get over anything and it will only deteriorate.

The only way you might possibly get over the things she has done is to know and then understand the whys.

Either way, she needs IC right now, or there is no fixing the situation. She doesn't sound like she can even begin to fix her own problems because she can't even admit she has one.

Old rock n roll lyrics:

She can't even run her own life

So I'll be damned if she'll run mine.

Pretty wise, huh?

@craig2001: Yes I think you're right about talking turning up more lies. We have barely touched the subject any evening this week (partly down to my seeing the futility in it but also as my WW seems quite content to sit on the sofa watching TV instead). The cycle does have to end, whether or not that means I ever get the full truth.

Side note: she's just said she's exhausted so I asked what time she went to bed. Late, came the answer. When I asked why, she said 'I was sitting here crying, if you must know'. It didn't cut much ice with me. I just told her in about ten words that she could change this with some honesty & transparency.

I'm seeing the CAB this morning. Let's see where that gets me. I just wish I had the luxury of six months to a year to watch my WW for changes - bit then I have to remind myself that filing for D is not the end point.

@Schadenfreude: Yes, very wise . Which song?

SaveUs

I'm sorry but what married woman constantly stays out overnight after partying. If it happened once in a while or infrequently it would be different. She was for sure banging these guys and her friend gave her cover so she is not your friend.

I know that is terrible but your immediate problem is right now because you have a lot more recent shit that shows it is still going on. Now with a family she is s living the so how life when she wants to and in the last you continue to allow it.

There are no consequences for her other than some aggregation from you

She will probably be going out again tomorrow night if her can is fixed. You need to file these papers or you will never make her budge

Good luck this morning saveus.

@Badhurt: I hear you and you could well be right but all that is conjecture... Please put the 2x4 away! I am gearing myself up for D-Day 4 as we speak so please don't assume I am kidding myself here. I just don't know.

@yearsofpain25: Thank you. I got back a little while ago.

In short, the CAB meeting was constructive I guess, though I was meeting with a 'generalist' (their word on the phone) - the Divorce Lawyer is not in next until the end of the month (I now have an appointment). The guy's advice was pretty much not to make every conversation about the A(s). To use the next three weeks to see if there is any way I can get my WW into MC/IC (or even just a CAB appointment with a 'generalist') before I meet with their lawyer. To get her to open up even a little, to see if there is any chance we can get to R. He asked me if, should my wife suddenly wake up and see the light, I would want to stay married, to which I replied absolutely yes - based on what I know so far. I explained my worry about further TTs/D-Days to come.

He's right about one thing. Pressuring her gets me nowhere. Nor does losing my rag with her or running out of patience. So, my choice is to bite my tongue and talk about the weather, or do what the common view on SI is - divorce her right now (sorry, file for divorce, I get the difference). D has the major plus of forcing her to face things head-on. Pussyfooting around, not talking about the flippin' DINOSAUR in the room, may just let her further off the hook and make her think this is the way it's going to be, that I'm prepared to sweep all this under the rug and carry on as if nothing happened. I'm NOT. No way. I actually don't think it would though - and I do think it may take longer but I may get to some more truth.

But I know what you're thinking - haven't you learnt enough about your WW already??? Of course I have. But my feeling from day 1 hasn't changed - I love her and want my family to stay together. This is not the same as I am codependent (though clearly I was) and can't imagine starting again (I couldn't). I feel FAR stronger now and able to contemplate a future without her.

Yes, run away and start again. Good advice. But I'm in the middle of this and may give it one last throw of the dice. But obviously this could be derailed by another D-Day.

I love her and want my family to stay together. This is not the same as I am codependent (though clearly I was) and can't imagine starting again (I couldn't). I feel FAR stronger now and able to contemplate a future without her.

We get this we really do. We also know that you cannot force another person to anything they are not willing to do.

I hear a lot about her, and how it makes her act, and her feel.

What about you? You are not considering yourself at all in this. YOU are not dealing with your pain. YOU are still using love as a reason, because the fear of having a broken family seems like the most horrific thing you can imagine.

I don't maybe for you it is. Maybe you are able to paddle happily along, and put this A in a box on the shelf, just like the prior one you know about, and are ok with all those other boxes on the shelf that she has told you hands off from day one.

To me, that just seems like a recipe for pain, and dysfunction. The kind your son will soon be picking up on. If you continue to you will be giving him a really f'd up version of what M is and how people should treat one another when they love each other.

Consider some woman treating your son like this in another 20 years, would you want that for him? We repeat what our parents teach us.

((((and strength))))

Mate, I am pro-R. I fought tooth and nail for my fWW, but you can only do so much. My fWW, with full signs of remorse, took 4 months so start acting like my wife. Yours has done NOTHING to make you feel safe, and in fact is lining up to potentially admit to more affairs.

Filing for D isn't about making it a fait accompli, it's showing your WW that there are consequences for her actions. At the moment, she has experienced none.

She acts like a temporarily inconvenienced single woman.

You're talking about 'just giving her some more time.'

2x4 warning: She's had 15-16 years mate. Since 1998 she has engaged in behaviour that isn't congruous with respecting you as a partner. She's had some form of emotional/physical intimacy with up to 7 other men, and she feels no remorse. No care about your pain. No care for your son. She walked out on him but a few weeks ago to entertain life with the most recent OM, remember that?

She needs serious help.

Maybe you are able to paddle happily along, and put this A in a box on the shelf, just like the prior one you know about, and are ok with all those other boxes on the shelf that she has told you hands off from day one.

Honestly, I'm not. I want to get at the whole truth then have a chance at dealing with it all. That's all I want. Maybe the whole truth will be too much, I don't know. What I know so far I believe I can deal with, just not on my own. And that's how I feel, on my own.