SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Don't understand any of this. I've been on SI for over two years; I've been to IRL betrayal support groups regularly for over two years. I've done lots of reading and have many counseling sessions. Never have I heard anything that absolved the WS of responsibility. Never have I heard blame placed on spouse.

I have a heard a lot here on SI about the importance of find the "whys" but those times of someone thinking they had the whys that still in no way was offered, described or take as an excuse.

If a spouse/partner chose to continue in relationship many reasons were suggested from the financially and otherwise practical to to those of love. But if the reason went beyond the mere practical those who chose or continued to stay did so because they saw the betrayer changing into a person of integrity not because they hadn't blamed their spouse or partner but because they thought the partner had become a trustworthy and decent partner with whom they thought their life would be better.

Have never read or heard of scientists reporting findings of cheating gene but even that wouldn't be offered as an excuse or a reason to avoid culpability. A person committing vehicular homicide isn't excused, set free of legal or social consequence because they were drunk; a junkie isn't free of legal or social consequence if they lie or steal to get drugs. They are considered even more untrustworthy for that condition, not less.

Unhappy people commit all sorts of horrible deeds. People who are content with their lives, satisfied, complete do not. Looking into the reasons, motives, inner lives and thoughts of those who do bad things does not mean we excuse them. Many of us wanted to know why the LV killer did what he did. But of course we think what he did was horrible. I think what my H did for 10 years was horrible but I wanted to know why, I wanted to know what he was thinking when he decided to do what he did. Nothing to do with excuse, just wanting to feel less confused, wanting to know who this person was. Just don't understand thinking we don't blame perpetrators. Wanting to understand them does not mean excusing or forgiving.

[This message edited by marji at 5:35 PM, November 1st (Wednesday)]

In my early days, I wanted to be partially responsible. I see now the I wanted the responsibility because that would give me some control over the outcome. If I were responsible then I could fix it.

In reality, in hindsight, with hours of therapy behind me, with many hours of introspection, the final analysis, he was an asshole. He was an asshole before he met me and continues to be one since I am gone. I do blame him. He is what he is and it had not one thing to do with me.

No problems blaming him.

Marji,

Don't understand any of this

I did a thread way back called

"Misconceptions about A's you had b/4 being cheated on? "

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=593607

This is me summarizing 5 pages worth of misconceptions.

"Before the A

The BS must have done SOMETHING to make the WS consider cheating.

That something may be

1) Not enough sex

2) A nag

3) Cold

4) Unsupportive

5)ETC to infinity.

During the A

How can the BS not know that the A is going on ?

How can the BS not spot the signs of an A?

How can the BS not know that they are being lied to ?

After Dday

The BS is dumb for staying with the WS.

The BS is vindictive and unforgiving if they divorce.

It is the BS fault when the BS can't "get over it" within a month or less."

I'm thankful that you met such understanding and knowledgeable people who truly understand infidelity the way it really is.

You should count yourself very lucky to have found such helpful, understanding and knowledgeable people.

If you read my thread, you will see many of the members here list the misconceptions they had before they were cheated on .

Just about all the major misconceptions blamed the BS.

There were no major misconceptions that blamed the WS.

Marji, again you are very lucky. I was told to "get over it" one month after Dday.

Here's a thread where other members share about their "get over it" horror stories.

"When did people 1st started telling U 2 "get over it"? "

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=589752

ETA :Here are more horror stories of ignorant non BS's

"List stupid things well meaning people have said."

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=586252

[This message edited by Dorothy123 at 6:55 AM, November 1st (Wednesday)]

I did it, it was easier to find a thing or his AP to focus on so I could try and are with him, because if I gave him the full blame he earned, and didn’t practice transference, R would not have ever been on the table.

If Joe Common Guy blames the cheating on the BS because of his own emotional need for it to have a cause that he can know/see/control, then that holds true for many BS also. We need to say, "She pursued him, she stalked me, she attacked my family" for the same reason Joe Common Guy needs to blame the BS: it feels better to see things this way and focus on it. Period. Many people outside of the marriage will feel the emotion and need radiate as a BS rages about an OW/OM, and to be supportive they indulge. But most are thinking, "Ok, true--but your spouse!!!! Geeze!!! He/She DID this!!! They brought this shit show down on you!!!" It's part of the reason it's hard to tell anyone about the cheating; you know they will shine the light too brightly on your cheating spouse, and that presents a conflict inside of us. We don't want you to hate our spouse too much.

It is simply normal human behavior to see things in a way that makes you feel better, safer, about the world you live in.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 6:57 PM, October 31st (Tuesday)]

The BS should be the one that non BS's should be trying to exonerate and absolve from all personal responsibility because we are truly not at fault.

Please excuse me as I let out another "this is beyond crazy " laugh!

[This message edited by Dorothy123 at 6:35 AM, November 1st (Wednesday)]

There seems to be this need from non BS's to give the WS their "get out of jail free" card.

Non BS's seem to cast the blame for the A way beyond the BS.

Here are the three major theories that tends to exonerate all the cheater's guilt and absolve all personal WS responsibility.

1) The cheating gene

2) All recent issues in the cheater's life with heavy emphasis on the BS's "faults".

3) All past childhood issues, traumas or problems the WS has ever had growing up

[This message edited by Dorothy123 at 12:45 PM, November 1st (Wednesday)]

I couldn’t stay away from this. Sorry, long winded stuff ahead.

Personally, I think there are a number of different things going on.

First, I agree that society has become indifferent to infidelity and blames the BS as much, if not even more than, the WS. I believe this is part of a trend of not judging people or not objectively identifying or calling out bad behavior. We used to be able to do that. Now, it’s “Hey, to each their own! Who am I to judge?”

Second, we have been moving to becoming an entitlement generation. Forget the Greatest Generation, when young men couldn’t comprehend staying home while their buddies went to war to fight for their country. Now it’s all about me. And that attitude has carried over into relationships. Relationships are supposed to be about giving. Now, it’s all about what I can get out of it. What does he/she do for me or give me? How does the other person make me feel? And so on. So from a societal standpoint, if the WS cheats, it MUST be because the BS didn’t do enough or provide enough [Insert Justification Here]. The BS HAS to be at fault because if the BS was fulfilling the WS’s needs properly, then there’s no way the WS would have cheated. Of course this is all hogwash, but I believe it’s an attitude many people now have culturally.

Third, I think it’s important to differentiate between excuses vs finding out your why’s. Let’s assume all cheaters are evil people. Great. Now as a BS, what do you do with that information? Well, no one wants to live with an evil person so I guess D is the only answer. But it’s not so clear cut, is it? I wouldn’t call DS or many of the wonderful WS’s on this site evil. So, to me, it must be someone who may be a very good person but who did an evil thing. And the way you can impact and change that person’s behavior, make amends, and have that WS become a better person is to explore their why’s. And life circumstances, FOO issues, stress, whatever, are all part of that. None of that voids their responsibility in any way. It just puts the focus on actionable things that can make a difference. Simply saying the WS is to blame doesn’t accomplish much other than making the BS feel good for a bit.

Fourth, as a BS myself, I can say that this some part that blames myself. In my mind it’s cognitive dissonance. I’ve loved this person for X number of years. She/he can’t be evil. Otherwise I must be the worst judge of character in history. Since I don’t want to think I’m a chump, or that the mother of my children is an evil slime, it must be my fault that she did this. I must’ve drove her to it. Of course, this is nonsense, but this rationalizing the WS’s actions is in some way a defense mechanism. The problem of course, besides it not being true, is that it makes the BS feel worse because now the blame is on their shoulders.

Last, our own personal circumstances all come into play here. Some folks have a non-remorseful WS. My wife was and is as remorseful as they come. For my wife, who’s been working on herself for the past 2 years, none of that work absolved her of her own personal feelings of responsibility for what she did. We have a good MC and she’s had a wonderful IC who holds her feet to the fire. And no matter what topic they discuss, my wife is acutely aware that she is responsible for damaging our M, her relationship with our kids, and tainting many of the things that have happened since (like my daughters wedding) and that are still to come. Her ability to reconcile who she is as a person vs her actions are a personal and supremely difficult battle that she will fight for a long time. She questions her nature and whether she is a good person at all. Because how could a good person do something so destructive? But that’s not productive. The focus on her why’s is, because it helps her down the path of becoming a more authentic person.

In the end that’s the most important thing. What’s the goal? If it’s just to place blame, sure, blame the WS where it belongs. But I don’t see where that gets you in the long run. Getting yourself out of infidelity. Working on your own healing if you’re a BS. D if the WS is unremorseful, or R if you’re both willing and able to do the work, and the WS working on themselves to become a safe partner and an authentic person. Those are the worthwhile things IMO.

We need to say, "She pursued him, she stalked me, she attacked my family" for the same reason Joe Common Guy needs to blame the BS: it feels better to see things this way and focus on it. Period. Many people outside of the marriage will feel the emotion and need radiate as a BS rages about an OW/OM, and to be supportive they indulge. But most are thinking, "Ok, true--but your spouse!!!! Geeze!!! He/She DID this!!! They brought this shit show down on you!!!" It's part of the reason it's hard to tell anyone about the cheating; you know they will shine the light too brightly on your cheating spouse, and that presents a conflict inside of us. We don't want you to hate our spouse too much.

Exactly. How can we as BSs expect non-BSs to lay blame solely at the feet of the cheater when many/some BSs can’t or won’t do it?

If we’re talking to non-cheated-on friend about our WS and they make a snide/rude remark about our WS, and then we jump and give reasons/make excuses for them because of XYZ, how can we expect them to blame the WS?

Like it or not, when we say things like he/she struggles with addiction/foo or the AP was predatory, the non-betrayed hear why the WS isn’t to blame. It’s an affair so a person has to blamed. If they transfer that blame to the BS they can now control whether or not their spouse will cheat. Some BS are just as guilty as non-betrayeds at blame-shifting, some to save their sanity and some to make trying R possible.

I think most people see a remorseful cheater the same way they see a criminal crying during a trial. Neither have guilt or remorse during the crime, but they sure as fuck do when they get caught and are facing some good old consequences.

The tears and remorse or a caught cheater mean a great deal to folks like walloped, some see it as further manipulation. Walloped, did your wife know cheating was wrong prior to engaging in it? She didn't know that a months long A would damage or taint her marriage? She was "good" prior to the A, "bad" during, and now she's back to "good" because she's remorseful? Do you see how some (most) people would see that logic as fucked up? Is your wife's character or moral code that pliable?

So people that aren't involved in the shitshow may see you (and me) as fools. We've seen, and born the brunt of, some truly horrific behavior, yet we stay (and struggle) and expose ourselves to further damage because some cheater cried and expressed remorse.

The tears and remorse or a caught cheater mean a great deal to folks like walloped, some see it as further manipulation. Walloped, did your wife know cheating was wrong prior to engaging in it? She didn't know that a months long A would damage or taint her marriage? She was "good" prior to the A, "bad" during, and now she's back to "good" because she's remorseful? Do you see how some (most) people would see that logic as fucked up? Is your wife's character or moral code that pliable?

I wouldn’t say that “tears” are what constitutes remorse. Nor would I agree that someone is good, then bad, then good again. I’d say,people are complex and that even good people can and will do some pretty shitty things.

And of course she knew that it was wrong and for a number of very screwed up thinking and rationalizations she did it anyway. Remorse is a lot more substantial than what you laid out here. And there are a significant number of important questions I needed to, and still need to, answer to make the determination that our work at R is heading down the right path. Am I a fool? No, I don’t believe I am. Am I making myself vulnerable? Of course.

But OP’s thread topic wasn’t about the value of R or whether one should R at all. It was about blaming the BS or not blaming the WS. And that is what I addressed.

[This message edited by Walloped at 11:28 AM, November 1st (Wednesday)]

Dude, this is a lively conversation!!!!!

[This message edited by Dorothy123 at 11:52 AM, November 1st (Wednesday)]

When the BS says " The WS A was a SELFISH , ENTITLED , CHOICE!"

Many non BS's be like.....

We are really talking about blaming the WS in R though. It wasn't specifically mentioned in the OP, but I don't think anyone choosing to divorce their cheating spouse is talking about how good people sometimes do bad shit for months or years. They place 100% of the blame on the cheater.

Us R folks though, we make a bunch of excuses for our cheaters. We talk about how they were good moms and terrific wives except for that little period where they weren't. We admire and take comfort in their remorse - the more tears and contrition the better. Now the cheater clearly sees the error of their ways. Now, not then, but now. We take comfort in that because that surely means we won't face another d day. Now they know it was wrong. Not then, but now. Now they understand the depth of their actions. Not then, but now. We see them struggle with some bullshit whys and hows. We polygraph and have endless discussions to get some version of what happened. We read books and go to IC and MC. We do the "work". We follow the formula presented here at SI and how to help your spouse heal to the tee. We do give them a get out of jail free card. The courtroom tears worked on us.

And we still wonder how this happened:

And of course she knew that it was wrong and for a number of very screwed up thinking and rationalizations she did it anyway.

This is the nagging thought at the back of my mind. I know my WW knew it was wrong. She still chose to cheat. She knew the fallout and simply thought she wouldn't get caught. The fun was worth the risk. Now she sees that choice as wrong. Not then, but now. I just can't buy into the "they were broken",FOO issues, or the why du jour. You're not broken if you knew what you were doing was wrong and still consciously decided to do it.

As I see it, the worst case scenario is the "my wife was wonderful, then she went nuts and cheated, but now she's wonderful again". I now can clearly see the character and personality traits in my WW that led her down the cheating path. I don't buy into the good, bad, good line. That seems delusional to me. I can see her working on these issues. I know she recognizes them now. I can also see that changing some of these traits is just about impossible. I see her struggle. I simply didn't recognize these things before she cheated. And woo boy, that was a costly lesson to learn.

I think people put too much emphasis on remorse here. Remorse really is questionable if it's only demonstrated after being caught. If the cheater has some moral epiphany during the A, stops it immediately, suddenly gains empathy and feels remorse, then those tears and other bullshit actions may have some meaning.

<-------wanted a thread to discuss the the absurdity of why there aren't any "get out of jail free" cards left for the BS's because all the "get out of jail free" cards were already given to the WS's .

[This message edited by Dorothy123 at 2:52 PM, November 1st (Wednesday)]

Stayed, I'm really sorry you're hurting. My experience is very different from this:

Us R folks though, we make a bunch of excuses for our cheaters. We talk about how they were good moms and terrific wives except for that little period where they weren't. We admire and take comfort in their remorse - the more tears and contrition the better. Now the cheater clearly sees the error of their ways. Now, not then, but now. We take comfort in that because that surely means we won't face another d day. Now they know it was wrong. Not then, but now. Now they understand the depth of their actions. Not then, but now. We see them struggle with some bullshit whys and hows. We polygraph and have endless discussions to get some version of what happened. We read books and go to IC and MC. We do the "work". We follow the formula presented here at SI and how to help your spouse heal to the tee. We do give them a get out of jail free card. The courtroom tears worked on us.

Among other things, I know my W cries when she is feeling something strongly, and it's usually painful, and my heart goes out to her, but tears don't give me any guidance about what to do. Her tears are hers to take care of. If she wants me to act, she has to ask me to act - and I feel free to meet or reject her request.

I never gave a shit about her 'whys'. All I care(d) about was the changes she was willing to make.

I've always believed that she is responsible for her healing, and I've usually acted on that belief. If she wants help from me, she has to ask for it, verbally or non-verbally. (I've been pretty good at reading he non-verbals for 3-4 years; before that, requests had to be verbal.)

The 'work' allows me to feel better, to accomplish more, to get more pleasure from life. What's not to like about the 'work'?

At a very fundamental level, I'm OK knowing that we are imperfect and that we fail each other from time to time. Sometimes the imperfections are major; sometimes minor. Sometimes the consequences are major, even for minor failures; sometimes minor, even for major failures. The fact that consequences aren't commensurate with failures bothers me immensely, but I haven't been able to change that fact.

Also at a very fundamental level, I never thought I had any ownership interest in her; she had made vows to me, but she was free to unmake them, with or without notifying me, and I was free to make my own response.

I've pardoned my W, hoping that she and others might pardon me. There but for the Grace of God go I.

The SI formula for R that I see is be strong, don't take any crap from your WS, see if you can build a new M, and take from SI what makes sense and ignore the rest.

I don't mean to imply that's the only way to interpret what 'SI' says, but I do think it's hard to interpret SI's message the way I've quoted it.

***********************

And why is anybody giving any credence to what people who know nothing about recovering from infidelity think?

Before one is a BS or WS, that's all one has to go one, but once we're in it, we know 'society' has no idea what they're talking about.

If you want to survive and thrive after being betrayed or betraying, I think one has to shut out what society says.

[This message edited by sisoon at 3:03 PM, November 1st (Wednesday)]

Now the cheater clearly sees the error of their ways. Now, not then, but now....

Now they understand the depth of their actions. Not then, but now....

We do give them a get out of jail free card. The courtroom tears worked on us...

You're not broken if you knew what you were doing was wrong and still consciously decided to do it.

What you’re talking about is whether R should ever even be on the table. The concepts of justice or consequences for the WS. Is any BS who chooses to R simply just a sucker?

Personally, I don’t believe it’s my role to mete out punishment or justice to my wife. Consequences of her A? Sure. But not punishment. And honestly, if you don’t think there’s been punishment in my wife’s life (and consequences), well...

We talk about how they were good moms and terrific wives except for that little period where they weren't...

I think people put too much emphasis on remorse here...

Because it’s important. I have not forgiven my wife for her affair nor will I ever forget what she did. What’s done is done. The question now for me as a BS is, do I want to move forward with my life with her in it or not? How do I determine that? Remorse. Work. Actions. Changes. And even then my answer might be no. Sure, I can choose to punish if I want to and D regardless of what she does or says, it is that the best option for me? Very person’s case is different. For me, I’ve said that because for over 25 years she was a good person, a good mom and a good wife, and because she is genuinely remorseful for what she did and has worked hard at all aspects of this in the aftermath, that it’s worth building a new relationship with her.

That’s not a get out of jail free card. Unless the only lens you are looking through is one where a lightning bolt must come out of the sky to strike every WS down.

I think there are a great many WS'S out there who think that society got "the blame game" just right !

[This message edited by Dorothy123 at 3:32 PM, November 1st (Wednesday)]

When the BS says " The WS A was a SELFISH , ENTITLED , CHOICE!"

Many non BS's be like.....

Interesting, I think we see the same thing from many BS. One member will say they cheat because they want to/selfish/entitled and many BS will say it’s not that black and white and out come the Foo/addict/self esteem/predatory AP reasonings.

BS are not so different from society in general , other than they don’t blame the betrayed, they blame other things, or give reasons why the WS cheated. It’s all too similar to me.

I think there are a great many WS'S out there who think that society got "the blame game" just right !

What does that mean?

You are not dealing with the problem inherent in your initial question.

You're assuming you know what 'society' thinks. My bet is that for every example in which 'society' doesn't blame the WS, someone can come up with a counter-example in which society does blame the WS.

Also, what is the point of using bold in your responses?

[This message edited by sisoon at 4:53 PM, November 1st (Wednesday)]

I'm not saying R is impossible. I'm not judging anyone for any choice they make. I am questioning how authentic the immediate WS remorse is on, or right after, d day. I also, from my own experience, see some of that remorse as WS manipulation or controlling the outcome. We've all read the threads where the WS was so remorseful and contrite, until D papers were filed, then they become cold, heartless, adversaries that completely rewrite history.

Sisoon, when it comes to requiring grace, I have a hard time imagining you doing anything remotely close to cheating. I'm not questioning personal improvement either. Hell, any person worth their salt should strive to be better today than they were yesterday. I do fail to see how cheating fits into that idea though.

Walloped, it would scare the bejesus out of me if I could not identify aspects of my WW's character and\or personality that allowed her to cheat. I do not understand how someone can be good for 25yrs and suddenly decide to cheat on a whim because of some minor life stressor. I find that notion terrifying. That person could seemingly make that choice again and again for a myriad of "reasons". I do see certain traits, etc., in my WW that allowed her to cheat, but I will never understand how she made that choice knowing how it could impact her children. I also understand wanting to R. The BS is in a helluva spot in this mess. I think some of us will R no matter what, and some of us struggle more. Thanks for not taking offense to anything I've posted here. Some folks mistake someone questioning their position as an attack of some sort. I sincerely appreciate the dialog.