SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I'm another who would discuss the timeline with him now while it's all still fresh, and ask all the questions you feel you need the answers to. For the timeline itself, imo the trying to blame her is not good but not unusual either - most cheaters try to blame each other until they take full responsibility for themselves. It's good that he owns up to being blatant in public and not caring about it, and describes the 'relationship' and himself as 'twisted, demented, crazed, not healthy'. I do think there is something to work with here, if you decide to do so. And while he appears to be being honest, ask him the things you want to know.

I agree about getting this out now rather than waiting for the other shoe to drop. The anxiety of outstanding information, or even the possibility that there's more to come, is horrendous. You are lucky that he's even willing to be forthcoming at the moment, most on here lie to minimize with a misguided sense that they are limiting the damage. And that always always backfires. Ask me how I know. And finding out new information months later is a gigantic setback in both your healing and any possibility to R.

Having said that, I'm glad that you're working on finding a skype therapist. It really makes a huge difference to process this stuff in a neutral place. Both your WS and here aren't neutral places.

I'm so glad that you've found a place of your own to regroup from this trauma.

((((sb)))

I can't wrap my head around all of that. It's gobbledy-gook to me.

Because it is.

He's has a long way to go. I hope IC can help him. Truly.

Anywho, I echo the posters who are suggesting that you get this done sooner than later - face-to-face.

Is it possible to heal without dealing with the "abuser" and getting answers?

It is possible to heal and move on without answers if you move on from him. People who deal with abuse have to do it every day but generally part of that healing and staying healed is to keep far away from the abuser. NC = No new hurts.

It's not possible if you're going to stay in the marriage and R. That would be rug sweeping.

You deserve to get any question answered whether you R or D and you do not owe him a single thing.

I knew one thing after Dday, he was going to TALK to me and explain why he ruined my life. AND answer every single question...didn't matter if we were going to R or D, I wanted to KNOW. But not all BS's are alike, some know they want D and conversation about the A is not what they want.

But if there is any thought or possibility of R in your mind, I'd say, yeah, lots and lots of talking needs to happen.

He's right, he is very, very mentally sick and he needs years of IC. He needs to work harder than he ever has in his entire life to become a whole, sane, mentally healthy person. No getting around that.

Anger is a healthy emotion. It protects. The problem is when you can't get past the anger in the healing continuum.

I'm glad you're feeling better physically, SpeedBump. Being sick lowers resistance to other stresses and they pile up. Getting settled in a new place, even if temporary, will give some stability, I think. That can help with your deliberations.

I question if your WH felt sick at the time when doing what he and it were doing. It's part of the minimizing. Just like trying to shift the blame to her.

I think, too, that you may need more details about the timeline. I am probably projecting because I did. Part of doing it in person is the body language. Body language is a large part of communication and is lost when communicating electronically or by phone.

I think you're doing very well. I know you've said you don't feel like it. Getting an IC will help with that, too, IMO. I'm sure you've read here that not all counsellors are created equal. Don't be afraid to "fire" any of them if there isn't a fit and, especially if there is any suggestion about issues in your marriage or what role you played in him cheating.

My best wishes, SpeedBump. Stay strong.

For most people infidelity is a deal breaker. This appears to be the same with you.

Firstly, allow your self time to decompress. You have been under alot of pressure and stress. Take time to heal. When you feel you are ready, then start implementing your decisions.

Lastly, you have always allowed your core values to be your guiding light..i.e. respect, care, love, honesty. These make you happy. These make all people happy. It's a great foundation to build a happy life on.

When it is time for you to 'decide' use these to help you decide what to do.

[This message edited by paboy at 3:21 PM, February 26th (Tuesday)]

I’m so glad you are feeling better. I think many of us wanted to hop across the ocean and make you chicken soup and help you heal.

I’m also glad you found a more semi permanent place. Did you move in already?

It sounds like he did an above average job on the timeline. Believe me we’ve seen worse around here. As to meeting with him to discuss it, I agree with the others that you should. But I would put a time limit on it.

“I’m willing to meet with you tomorrow to discuss what you wrote, but only for an hour to start.” Even set a timer for about 1:15 and stick to it. If it goes ok, schedule another one 2 or 3 days later.

Meet where you feel comfortable. In your new home or at a coffee shop or shopping mall or park if it’s warm enough.

I really do think I want to hear it all from him but I'm where this all started in the first place...unable to make a decision for fear of the outcome and I don't even have any idea what that would be.

So let’s tslk about what you are afraid of. Is it that you might D? Is it that you won’t D? Is it the amount of work it will take for you to make R a reality? Is it that your heart will ache during the discussion!? All of the above? None of the above?

Let’s levelset. Let’s say at best Marriages have a 50/50 chance of Recovering after an affair. I think that’s generous. And with the extra awful games they played perhaps for you it’s lower than that.

Well then if you end up D’ing it was the most likely outcome anyway. It’s his failure not yours.

So why not give R a shot if you feel like you don’t want to rule it out right away. You can quit and D anytime. You have control. That alleviates fear.

And during the session only try to get thru a page or two of the timeline. Maybe 1/4 of it. And ask him to expand on each item. If it’s something important, ask him to write it up and bring it back when you meet next.

If he asks about this process tell him “I need to hear it all because whether we D or R, I want there to be now secrets between you and the POSOW who helped you destroy our M. If it’s out in the open it loses its power. If we have a chance we both have to have the same Information. Saying it or writing it makes it lose its specialness. “

Hopefully he can get that thru his thick head.

And don’t leave him to have nothing to do while you read what he delivers in between sessions.

Ask him for an update on selling the house.

Tell him if he wants a chance he will research how to heal a M after you had an affair and to report back on what he finds.

Tell him he needs to find a WESTERN BASED IC before a week from now.

And of course, any updates to the timeline you ask for.

And leave him with the fact that breaking NC shows you he’s not interested in having you as his wife ever again.

I think you can do this SB. Don’t over tax yourself. This is a long road. Stick to the time limits.

Your strength continues to amaze.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 4:04 PM, February 26th (Tuesday)]

I am sure this feels like a cacophony of voices. One side appears to encourage the possibility of reconciliation and the other divorce. It is all up to you.

I am interested in what he was like before you moved. I have been to Europe several times and was unable to get my husband to go even once. I am quoting verbatim, “I haven’t lost a thing in Europe”. He has his own things he does every day, people he sees every day, a business to run and hobbies to do. What was your husband so willing to give up? What was he like before you married? Did you know him while he was married to his first wife? How did you meet him? What is his relationship with his extended family? This is part of the mystery. Why was he so willing to go to another country with nothing to do? Working on a house is not a full-time job unless it is a full-time job. It appears he worked on the house when he felt like it so what did he do with the rest of his time? Whose idea was it to move and how long did it take the two of you to not only decide but to put it into action? It seems that to him this was not sustainable.

The subject of resentment has come up, but I think this runs much deeper. When you have this type of cruelty there is something else very serious going on below the surface.

I know people who have cheated. I know their bs. None of them showed this kind of iniquity.

Maybe your husband wanted out. It happens. Gaslighting and torture should never happen. That is why you need answers. Who is he? That mask he had on was a good one.

Is it possible to heal without dealing with the "abuser" and getting answers?

I'd say it is necessary. You can ask, ask, ask questions until the cows come home, and just keep thinking of more questions. Deeper and deeper down the rathole. That assumes he's actually back to being a caring human again.

What do you think someone whose spouse remains a full on jerk has too deal with? With no closure possible from the WS, just more manipulation and BS?

It sucks, it is not fair, but it is what it is. The burden is on you.

Be very careful that you don't find yourself pulling close to him in order to get that healing.

Sending strength!

You can heal without getting answers from the WS once you realize that all of the answers that you get from them will be heavily seasoned with it's own special brand of psychological abuse.

Between the blameshifting onto both the BS and OW, the gaslighting as they put their own innocent and hapless spin on their version of events, the helpless victim routine designed to con an already broken betrayed spouse into shelving their own feelings and pain in order to rescue or help the helpless WS through their pain at realizing how mean and messed up they were being, the well timed empty promises while they put on their best show of finally being the caring partner that they weren't before by their own choosing, the minimizing the damage done to you, the dismissal and ignoring of anything they don't want to deal with, and the BS's natural desire to try to salvage what is left of their broken and destroyed hopes and dreams of the future, the answers that you get from a WS rarely provide the healing, compassion, and comfort that we need and seek.

For me, I got so many false confessions during my initial D-day. My STBXH wanted me to grant him immunity for anything and everything that he owned up to. That should have been my cue to walk away. But I didn't. I wanted answers. I wanted validation from him that all of the suspicions and poor treatment by him were true.

But even with me agreeing to give him immunity, STBXH would not tell the full truth or give me the validation that I was seeking. He continued his A with my sister for an additional year after D-day while lying to me each and every step of the way. Fed up with the ongoing hot and cold treatment by him along with the constantly changing stories about what happened and didn't happen while he hid behind the claim of having a bad memory, I spent the first 3 years after D-day being put through hell by him. Even though he tried to hide it, his smirks of derision gave away just how much he enjoyed turning the screws to me. Since he was the only one of us who knew what did or did not happen during his affairs, he had the upper hand and tormented me with that power play for far too long.

My STBXH's lies about what did or did not happen throughout our marriage broke down so badly that it culminated in him taking a lie detector test 2 years ago. He passed it with flying colors, but it still did not bring me the peace and healing that I craved. The stress of being toyed with in his cruel power play and mind games took its toll on my body and my health. So for the past two years, I stopped focusing on his shenanigans and our marriage and I started focusing on me and my well-being.

It took two years of even more childish stunts, even more gaslighting, and even more of his endless self-centered nonsense for me to realize that I had to save myself. I have learned so much, but I had to learn it the hard way by doing it the way I did. Everyone could tell me that I would be better off without looking to STBXH to give me answers, but I needed to do that for me at the time. I didn't realize that looking for validation from the same person who broke my self-validation system was messed up. And it was just what my abusive STBXH wanted me to do. He wanted me to come to him for the answers to his behavior so that he could get me spun up in his blame game where it was everyone else's fault, but he was self-sacrificing to take the fall for it even though he saw himself as a victim too.

STBXH won back then. He succeeded in getting me to stop trusting myself while going to him for all of my answers and all of my validation. So long as he could get me to do that, he knew he could talk his way out of any and all of it. And he was right. I stayed in the marriage for 5 years longer than I should have after D-day because I was convinced that I could not heal or move forward with my life without the answers that only he knew.

And five years later, I realize now that I have no more answers now than I had before D-day happened. Even with a lie detector test and his last ditch effort to let me know that there was more that I never knew about, I realize now that I don't need his answers to know that I am better off without him and his power trip games in my life. I realize now that all of those dreams and plans that I had for the future weren't salvageable after all. They were never real to begin with because everything involving my STBXH was built on the quicksand that is his massive ego. What I will have going forward may not be as much as I had originally planned for, but at least those plans are no longer at the mercy of a man who could not show me the slightest ounce of mercy whenever he had someone to team up with against me.

So while I can tell you that you don't need any answers from him to know that you deserve better than what he has brought into your life, I understand the desire to do so. Whatever you decide, we're here for you. Hugs.

F1

I am one to suggest going ahead and discussing the timeline sooner rather than later. I waited to long with some of FWH and never have gotten the truth. I was always told it was in my head and that my jealousy was the issue. I could never prove that he was lying, even though I had a witness that told me stories of what she say. It still bugs me to this day, I just want to know so I can without a doubt that it happened and I was NOT crazy. I could only prove the last one...but in my heart I know there is more.

Don't be like me and always wonder - ask your questions now so you can get the discovery out of the way and get on to recovering.

You show so much class - and have handled this like a pro. I know you don't feel that way but dang girl, you rock.

I must agree with Furious here. It's very possible you won't get answers from your husband in this matter. It's very possible you'll get his polarized view, his dysfunctional take on it, and what he thinks you want to hear to get him within range of that rugsweep.

If I had known everything that my XWH did behind my back, I probably would have done some drastic harm to myself or him. I personally was better off not knowing all the sordid details. When I pushed him for answers, he knew all he had to do to drive me crazy was look confused and shrug. Which he did a lot toward the end. And while that was a power play on his part, the end result is that I was able to torture myself less and heal faster.

But that's not to say I discourage you from demanding that he give you those answers. By all means, if it's what you want, insist on it. Answers can and do help with closure much of the time, for many people.

But listen to those answers with the mindset that this is a man who took great delight in waving things right under your nose without you seeing them. You cannot, MUST not expect him to be filled with truth serum now just because he got caught. If anything, he will justify omissions by saying he's trying to spare you further distress.

If you drop a burger on the kitchen floor in front of a dog, he is going to go for it. You can yell at the dog and stomp your foot and tell him "No". He will jump back, look guilty, and avoid your eyes (submissive mode). But as soon as you turn your back, he's going for that burger again.

Your spouse just got caught with a burger on the floor. Don't the sad eyes fool you. If that burger (in your case, hope of getting away with something) is on the floor, he's going for it every chance he gets.

Before you meet with him, I recommend Googling “Untangling the Skein of Fuckupedness”. In the meantime, here are some important bits:

Why do cheaters cheat? Because they CAN. It’s that simple. Do you need more of an answer? Okay. Because of greediness. Because of narcissism. Because of a lack of empathy for others affected by their shit decisions. Because they value ego kibbles more than they value your well-being. But the reasons simply boil down to — greed, opportunity, and not caring.

….Untangling the skein of fuckupedness is a coping mechanism. You want to figure out what makes your cheater tick so you can ensure that they never do anything so devastatingly hurtful again.

…Stop it! Stop it right now! It’s not your job to figure them out! You only get to figure out YOU. What your values are, what you will tolerate, and what is acceptable and unacceptable to YOU. That’s it.

…An explanation is not a balm. Getting lost in the skein prolongs your pain. Better to move towards acceptance. They did it because they COULD. So… now what? That’s on you.

rbf1234 - Well said.

As an aside, the slang for tangles in a skein is “barf”.

[This message edited by alphakitte at 3:16 PM, February 28th (Thursday)]

The "Untangling the Skein" article was great! Thanks for posting that.

I hope you get whatever answers you need to move on. Human beings do not like being left in the dark. I agree that he cheated because he wanted to. That is a given. What I think is necessary for you is where in the hell this maniac was all those years. Maybe I am projecting too much of myself into your life but if I found out all the sneaky stuff you have my husband would be singing soprano.

Joking aside, I hope you are feeling better.

Hi Speedbump.

Just checking in and hoping things are settling down.

Have you been able to find a therapist either IRL or via Skype?

How are you feeling? Sleeping any better this week?

Update when you have a moment and feel ready to share.

How's the new pad?

I imagine you are spending a lot of time puffing it out and making it yours?

I bet it's cool putting your stuff were ever you want and not have to worry about someone elses opinion.

I just hope you are healthy.

Never ever let other people define you! But you know that already

What you are calling paralysis is actually fear.

Fear of what the future will be like if you stay married.

Fear of what the future will be like if you end the marriage.

Fear that you don't know everything.

Basically - fear of the unknown.

You have to make a decision. Divorce or not.

Once you do that, your path will be clearer.