SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

We all grow older, but some people never really grow up.

I think that you made (and are making) exactly the right decisions.

I am sorry, though, that you are finding yourself in this position.

TR

You can only do this if you conceive of intimacy with you as a gift you're giving other people. Showing people how angry you are with them is an act of intimacy. Should, for example, that douchebag at the nuclear plant or whatever it was have been given such access? No, and I am displeased that you gave him that access and that this ultimately resulted in you having to leave the position without getting your security clearance.

Seriously, I used to be such a whore in all ways, until I learned to think of access to all parts of me as things other people should be trying to get rather than things I should be trying to give away.

And I agree. This woman you've been seeing seems straight out of The Glass Menagerie to me. She's a tragic figure. Don't turn into just another source of censure and disapproval. She's got enough.

[This message edited by ladyvorkosigan at 10:40 AM, September 1st (Wednesday)]

until I learned to think of access to all parts of me as things other people should be trying to get rather than things I should be trying to give away.

Man, does that ever spell it out.

Thank you, LadyV.

ETA: Thanks, TR.

-D

[This message edited by Defiance at 11:11 AM, September 1st (Wednesday)]

Invisibility is a superpower. =)

I'm so sorry.

Sending you strength and peace and better days...

(((D)))

Just personal opinion, I don't think you need anger management, bi-polar or have mental health issues. Residual PTSD, probably.

The exchanges you have had with LadyV on this thread show that you have alot of the "pieces", that you have done a great deal of introspection, understand that you are dealing with reprecussions of an abusive relationship and give too much of yourself away too freely. It looks like it is beneficial for you have someone you trust, like LadyV, to hash out some of these things out with. I know counseling is crazy expensive but are there any men's support groups in your area?

You wrote previously about being alone in your cabin for three weeks and I know that you really enjoy the solace and pursuit of photography but I wonder if spending lots of time alone is good for you right now? Do you have a place you feel truly comfortable and at home besides the cabin?

I wrote something about how you go from desperate straits to incredible highs, that's kind of representative of your personal environment... like your everyday life with dad, ex and family are oppressive and depressing and your cabin retreat offers independence and happiness. I can imagine thinking that you could have someone to share the "happy" part of your environment was very incredibly enticing.

I'm not going to tell you how to lead your life but I wonder if getting your alimony reduced and working on setting up some good boundaries with yourself and others might be good first steps? I'd love to see you get into a good group therapy situation too.

You mention just being friends with your SO. I hope that you can.

I think she needs adult friendship so you should do everything in your power to be her friend and help her get out of her situation so that you two can eventually rise above all this and be together.

WRONG!

Take your time to decide... but if the relationship is not mutually beneficial then you need to let her be. After we have been scared by infidelity I think we need to be very careful with who we get involved with on a personal intimate level.

I read alot of bravado in your posts but wonder if you don't listen to your inner voice as often as you should.

But I am not at a point where I need anger management.

Well -- you have/had me fooled at times. Having never met you in person I can only base my opinions on the tone of threads such as this one. Just curious, in your opinion what triggered you into the emotional state that spurred you to send her the initial email and start this thread in the first place?

With your wisdom and keen no nonsense sense of reality that you so generously share here on SI, I have always considered you to be an even-keeled kind o' guy IRL. Is that correct?

Give and take.

-t2g

I'm sorry to hear this, D. (((hugs)))

My thoughts on all this also are with the ones that felt you may have some residual PTSD (the depression, the continual self-defeating behaviors, the hopeless view of your future, the need to keep posting how much you are worth it, like you are trying to convince yourself but just not quite getting it). I know you keep saying you are worth it, and you deserve more, but I don't feel you truly believe that way down deep, at your core. We all see your worth, but until you see it, it is just like a sieve and it will trickle out as fast as it comes in. When you do realize your worth, you won't need to post anymore how you know you are worth it, because you will just know! I think you are still hearing the continual track of your ex beating up on your self-esteem, telling you who would want you?

I think the best thing you could possibly spend any money on, or spend time trying to work out, is to find a good therapist who can work with you on the PTSD stuff. And also on the abuse you have endured.

I also agree with (I think it was cat, but can't remember, sorry!) who said you seem to be measuring your worth in how others see you, in particularly, if you find a woman who will change for you and dedicate herself to you, then you will be worth it, and your self esteem soars. When you posted about finding someone that shared your passion, and you were ready to propose, you reminded me of Superman, ready to fly. Then things don't work out, and it is "fuck this, fuck the world, I am worth it, I am done..." Do you see how your self-esteem is totally tied up in this one person?

I really like what Red Sox Nation and a few others were saying about this woman, and this is who she is. She has her own issues. I am sure she would love to have a life with you, but she can't, for her own FOO reasons she hasn't worked thru yet.

One reason I will NEVER make a life with my X SO is his mommy issues. He would need extensive help to work thru those. I still love him, but I have no delusions we will ever live happily ever after. I have, though, had problems completely detaching. I want to stay caring friends, because we do have strong and caring feelings for each other. Perhaps you will be able to do that with this woman. I think she could be a wonderful friend for you, and that you both would benefit from a close and caring friendship.

D, we all see your worth, and we all love you, but until you truly see that for yourself, you will continue to be in "hell" with the ups and downs dependent on the absence or presence of an S.O. that fulfills your needs.

OH, on the anger....anger management just helps you control and handle your anger, it does not get to the root of it. You have a lot in there to be angry about, but it is coming out in different places. A therapist (sorry, I know I am a broken record on this issue) can help you get to the root of the anger you rightly deserve to have, so it doesn't come out so much on other things.

[This message edited by NaiveAgain at 12:50 PM, September 1st (Wednesday)]

(((D))) I'm late to the party as I've had my own party on another thread.....I'm sorry you are feeling like this too.

Just hugs to you.

I'm sorry it didn't work out. I think it's easy when we've been abused before, or have PTSD, to trigger around having to set boundaries. It sounds like your boundary you are setting is reasonable, and if it means your relationship ends then so be it. I know 'so be it' is really tough, but part of part of entering into relationship at all is to open to the experience that the relationship will end and it will hurt. There is no way around that unless both parties die instantly without seeing the train coming.

You love someone. It's not working out. Maybe changes can be made, maybe not. You would be giving yourself a break by seeing it as a heart opening experience that met it's limitation. When you just see it as another failure to be thrown on the giant heap of stuff that did not/doesn't work for you then it's like you are not giving yourself a break. . You are seeing your life and so much in it as failure/not working.Stop looking at it that way, you are beating yourself up over and over and over again.

Hugs and admiration and respect beaming your way from me.

I think it is not so much a matter of not working out. It is more a matter of me accepting what is, and that I need to accept it AS it is, and not have brought expectations in that mix. Unrealistic expectations.

She for her own reasons, has the life she does, the commitments. The decisions she has made in caring for and being with her mother. And to care for herself with her own medical issues.

And her decisions here about what she can offer in a relationship?

She told me straight up from the beginning how it was. And I didn't listen. I thought I could change the dynamic, or that things would improve a lot as she got to know me (and trusted me).

What I need to accept is that the disappointment I feel in not having what I want in this relationship now, is that it is solely on MY shoulders for expecting it to be different. Different than what she TOLD me it would be.

She was true to what she said to me. I cannot fault that. She said she would be limited, that she chooses to be with her mother, that she feels that her mother would cause her great difficulty if she had a close relationship with a man at this time.

So, it is ME that needs to take a big step back and realize. When people tell you what's what, they usually mean it. It is up to us to listen. Up to me.

-D

I am so sorry. You have been through hell. I wish this had turned out well.

When people tell you what's what, they usually mean it.

Amen.

This took me a long time to really get too. Sometimes I want to be confused by mixed messages so that I don't have to hear what I don't want to hear even tho they said it straight up at the beginning...

but it's OK. it's a process. this is how we find out. sorry it hurts.

Timing is everything. She isn't going to change until Mom isn't breathing and for now her Mom is always right.

One thing I finally got through my thick head, SI pounded it into me.

You can't change anyone

You can't make them do the right thing.

You can't make someone love you enough to make you their priority.

gma

She told me straight up from the beginning how it was. And I didn't listen. I thought I could change the dynamic, or that things would improve a lot as she got to know me (and trusted me).

I could modify that quote just a little bit here and there, I could have it neatly fit every intense relationship that I've had in my life.

Speaking just for myself in relationships (other than the infidelity in my marriage) there have been so many times I have ignored big fucking red flags, I'm talking red flags big enough to fly over a car dealership. I always tried ignoring the negative and focusing on the positive, assumed everything would work out on the strength of the commonality we had.

It's been a loooong time since I dated but if I was in a relationship like yours I would probably not directly confront the mother dependence problem early on, instead I'd wait and just get more and more frustrated. I would not feel entitled to ask for more or a change in priorities because I would bow to the needs of the parent.

I hope if I am ever dating and an issue comes up like what you have been through that I would be more proactive in addressing what I need in a relationship. Like someone else wrote give and take. situation. I have blamed other people for not giving me what I needed but I did not make clear what I needed or wanted either.

I think some of this same dynamic may apply to you.

You can't make someone love you enough to make you their priority.

This quote will be one vying for space on my grave marker.

I am going to sit down with her when I get home, and talk all of this out, face to face. To see where we will indeed end up.

I will stop getting angry and frustrated, and just talk. Plainly and directly. And I will communicate what I would like in a relationship. And I will listen to her.

And I will ask her to meet me halfway, and come up with a plan that satisfies both of us, if that is possible.

That is the mature, adult thing to do.

What I have been doing up to this point, has NOT been.

-Defiance

You're lucky you met and dealt with the woman now, while her mother is still living and you got to see the dynamic between them. If you had met her after her mother's death she would have transferred her dependence on to you and you wouldn't have had a clue what was driving it.

Once her mother is gone she'll look for someone else to play that role in her life. Thank goodness that person isn't you. Another dependent is the last thing you need.

I will stop getting angry and frustrated, and just talk. Plainly and directly. And I will communicate what I would like in a relationship. And I will listen to her.

And I will ask her to meet me halfway, and come up with a plan that satisfies both of us, if that is possible.

Perfect plan! Judging by what I read here and what I see IRL, being the aggressor in a relationship does nothing but squash any romantic feelings the oppressed may have. Thus, my opinion that being 10x the giver is not always a good thing.

This brings us right back to balance. Which, seems to be your current course. Excellent.

-t2g

T2G,

What I need the most is balance. And I can start best with things I can control. Namely, me.

-D