SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I had to work late, and was hungry when I got home.

Eventually I decided I didn't want to play on a team that was losing because someone was letting too many shots go in between her legs.

aesir, you crack me up! Often. I just love your sense of humor!

I'm not touching anything else here. It's way too intense. Yet I can't seem to stay away from it.

Eventually I decided I didn't want to play on a team that was losing because someone was letting too many shots go in between her legs.

I, too, found this pretty hilarious.

I've been hurting for a long time over H's rejections. The best thing I ever did for my self-esteem was to stop initiating. No initiation = no rejection.

Disagree. One can feel just as rejected even without the initiation. Perhaps even more so if the WSO also decides not to initiate.

This does NOT mean I am blaming myself for our relationship issues

Why not? You're a WS...aren't you to blame? You are both mad hatters, so I guess are both equally to blame for the relationship issues...no?

Jesu,

I understand that you are hurting, but please back up for a minute. Regarding your specific comment:

Why not? You're a WS...aren't you to blame? You are both mad hatters, so I guess are both equally to blame for the relationship issues...no?

We are all responsible for our part in our relationships. However, there are often things that are out of our control and trying to place blame for those things is counter-productive. I'm not saying she isn't responsible for her infidelity, just that there were a lot of other things she WASN'T responsible for.

Much like you.

How is feeling rejected by the WW now being equated to rape and sexual slavery?

Edited because I am having a hard time posting right now without breaking SI rules. Need to step away...

[This message edited by thenon-goddess at 3:59 AM, October 13th (Saturday)]

This does NOT mean I am blaming myself for our relationship issues

Why not? You're a WS...aren't you to blame? You are both mad hatters, so I guess are both equally to blame for the relationship issues...no?

Every relationship has issues. They succeedor fail based on how people deal with those issues. So who is responsible for the relationship issues if nobody is a WS (I have heard rumours that there are relationships like this).

From As Good As It Gets:

Carol Connelly: OK, we all have these terrible stories to get over, and you-...

Melvin Udall: It's not true. Some of us have great stories, pretty stories that take place at lakes with boats and friends and noodle salad. Just no one in this car.

You know what, my relationship had issues besides STBXWW cheating. Many of them were my responsibility. I had a troublesome business venture that suffered from timing, location, and personell issues, but I was locked in to it by contracts and the cost of getting out was higher than the cost of continuing. Sometimes the stress of it, and her lack of understanding of the situation made me unpleasant to be around. There were other issues around a lot of things that each of us brought. The big difference was in how we chose to deal with the issues, both our own, and the others.

How is feeling rejected by the WW now being equated to rape and sexual slavery?

By what has been proposed and promoted as a "solution" to this.

A healthy relationship is a team effort, not one of keeping score. If you just want a transactional model, where everything is fair and balanced, well all of us here can just forget about that ever happening. Infidelity is just too many points, and it is time to invoke the mercy rule and call the game.

Now if the goal is too have a healthy relationship after, then both partners have to become healthy partners. That means cooperating, helping each other through their struggles, showing concern for each others feelings, honest communication, healthy boundaries, and a mutually pleasurable and loving sex life. If you think that your WW used to act like a whore, so now you are going to treat her like a whore for the rest of the relationship, then for all practical purposes you are living with a whore. You may as well just go have sex with a real whore, it is financially cheaper, and less emotionally draining to rent.

Now some may see what I wrote above as R standing for rugsweeping, but read it again, helping each other through their struggles, showing concern for each others feelings, that does mean that the WS has to help with the issues the BS has that resulted from the A, and we all know there are a ton of those. It also means that the BS has to help where they can with the WS's issues. Some things can be mutually beneficial. Fully discussing the A, and the thought processes, and where they were wrong may be very uncomfortable, but can help both partners deal with their own issues.

notinsane, you actually gave me a really good laugh when I saw this on the front page. Sort of a thread/poster combination, like your username was answering the question.

How should I feel after she says "no" to sex

notinsane

Unfortunately, for a while after dday, it can make people insane.

Now to address something way way way back, from before this thread went off the rails and I was at work and too busy to actually reply.

I'm sure she never turned her AP down when he wanted sex. She responded by saying it was only once. I reminded her that while she may have only slept with him once (still wondering if that's true), they also had oral sex on several other occasions.

...

"I bet you didn't say no to OW".

...

WSO never turned down OM

You know, it is easy to always be in the mood with someone when they really aren't around much at all and you have to arrange in advance to sneak off to be with them in fantasyland.

Quite a bit different from someone who is always there and may be in the mood at any time on a moments notice while you are dealing with reality. You come home after a long day at work, grab a bite to eat while thinking about paying the credit cards and utilities and cleaning up the living room because someone is coming over in a couple of days and do you need to do laundry because you have that big meeting the next day and you are not sure if your "got a big meeting" shirt is clean and is it time to change the oil in the car and you need to stop for gas tomorrow on the way to work or maybe you can make it until the drive home did you turn off the stove and the toilet really needs to be scrubbed and... and did I leave anything out... and you finally crawl into bed and your partner says to you "I wanna fuck now."

[This message edited by aesir at 4:16 AM, October 13th (Saturday)]

This was one issue that really bothered me when I attempted R. Granted it was over a year after d-day and I really was not giving my 100% either. But during the A my XWW was jumping through hoops sexually for her OM. When we decided to R I assumed and mistakenly felt I deserved at least the same treatment in bed. Im the type of dude that likes variety in the sack. Prior to her A she was a bit less enthusiastic about certain things. I had to introduce things slowly. But whatever OM wanted my XWW she provided. Stuff she actually said no to me when I requested it. Naturally when R began I assumed she liked to do certain stuff. Well I not only was rebuffed but she actually was insulted by certain things I expected. It led to many arguments and like most male BS I called foul and had to drop the OM into the mix as she did these things with him. That just made thing worse and I remember one night we were fighting over this issue. she went to the gym and I was horny. It was a couple of weeks since we had sex and I put on a nice pair of silk boxers she liked. I had the bedroom lit up with scented candles etc. She walked in all sweaty and said she needed a shower. She spent an unusual amount of time in the shower I guess hoping I would fall asleep. When she did come into the bedroom she said to me "Not tonight Im not in the mood" Well that set me off and the OM was brought up. In her anger she said to me "There are things one does with a BF that you dont do with your spouse" Well I exploded after that remark. I said "Am I supposed to feel special that you wont fuck me like you did OM" In her head I dont think she meant to say those exact words but thats what came out and it just made shit worse. It did not help that she wanted to sweep things under the rug and I in retrospect just wanted to reclaim my territory.

What I failed to realize is that she most likely was not feeling too sexy. After a certain amount of time the fog lifted a bit and she saw that she was basically used sexually by OM. So after the HB was done she really did not want to have sex. With me or anyone else at that time. I persisted and I got angry. We would not speak for days and I acted like a child. I would throw out the usual foul words and names. I would remind her that OM used her as a whore etc. All that did was make me the bad guy once again. And she started to put POS OM up on the pedistal once again. Eventually when OM made contact she never told me about it. Most likely out of fear of what my reaction would be. It gave him a chance to put his spin on shit. He told her that she was the best thing that ever happened in his life. But that because he loved his children so much he needed to stay with his W. that That he hoped she understood and wished she could at least be friends and perhaps more. He actually asked her to wait till his youngest was 18 and they could be together. To her credit she said no to the physical request but she did say he would always be her friend. There was no mention of me or our M in their communication.

A couple of months later she was chatting with her friend on IM and he came up. There she was telling her GF that OM was so special and he was th true love of her life. That he loved his kids so much he was willing to give up the best thing in his life (My XWW) and what a great guy he was. She actually believed this lying sack of shit and did not see that he was simply fishing to get no strings attached sex from her. I had not checked the keylogger I installed months before for a long time. One weekend she and the kids were gone visiting family. I had to work and stayed home. That Saturday night for some reason I checked and saw the IM. Naturally I was irate and packed my bags. I printed out the IM and left it taped to the fridge. She called trying to lie and talk her way out of it. But I was not having it. I was more mad about the broken NC and was not going back. This led to ill feelings between us that lasted many years. Its only been in the last year or so that Ive owned my own shit in the failure of the R. Instead of being a supportive partner in it I expected her to carry the burden herself. When she would not do it I became angrier. Im not excusing her role in this at all. But I do have to admit I did not go into R with the best intentions myself.

R after an A is most likely the hardest thing any person can do. Both WS and BS must give it their all. It must be done as a team. One person can not do it all. You see it here all the time. R fails because one partner tries to fix things themselves while the other just gives a token effort. Therefore leading to more anger and more issues. I have to give props to all of the couples who can successfully R. Its really hard work and both parties have to eat shit and put up with some bad feelings. I personally never gave my XWW the incentive she needed to fix herself and/or our M. I wanted what I wanted and would not compromise. Its easy for the BS to sit back and take the attitude that WS broke this, so let him/her fix it. Well that does not work and never will. When I give advice to newly BS who think they want R I always stress to them to think about it first. I ask them if they really can forgive. Can they really do the hard work required to R properly. I think way too many of us BS jump into it out of a sense of fear, duty or just to get back what we think is ours. We sit back waiting for the WS to do the impossible and fix everything. Well that shit dont flush in the real world. And I also believe that the BS also has their own period of fog. The lack of or type of sex is one of these big issues that need to be talked about openly. Instead of flying off the handle and taking it personally we need to calmly ask why sex is not wanted. I know it sucks tht we have to out up with this side effect of an A. But perhaps there is an underlying reason the WS does not want sex. I do know by reading the WS forum that many WS feel used and abused sexually. They are looking at themselves and their past behaviors and see that sex has been used to get what they want. Sex to many WS especially female is just a trade off for something else. Attention, validation, romance etc. Its only natural they view sex as a bad thing and lose their desire. And when we BS get all hung up on the issue all it does is makes them simply give up trying. I now know thats exactly what happened in my case. IDK maybe Im wrong here. But I have to admit I allowed this topic to be personally. And instead of finding out why she felt they way she did I just flew off the handle. I do know that did not help the situation one bit. And I do know it made it easier for my XWW to slip back into old habits.

I have read this whole thread and have bit my tongue to the poit of bleeding. Now that being said...

Phoenix. I totally understand how you feel. My (our) R is going beautifully. I couldn't ask for more as far as communication, affection, doing things for and with each other. Feeling loved, cherished and special...with the exception of sex. That is still the one area that I do not believe I will ever "heal" from. If Mr. B. says he is to tired or whatever I am immediately crushed. CRUSHED beyond belief and I then retreat. Nothing I can do about it.

Phoenix. I totally understand how you feel. My (our) R is going beautifully. I couldn't ask for more as far as communication, affection, doing things for and with each other. Feeling loved, cherished and special...with the exception of sex. That is still the one area that I do not believe I will ever "heal" from. If Mr. B. says he is to tired or whatever I am immediately crushed. CRUSHED beyond belief and I then retreat. I don't even bring up the A. Guess in that aspect I will never by enough.

Edited because I bit my tongue...

[This message edited by girlsbird at 6:26 AM, October 13th (Saturday)]

Stronger08, awesome post.

Jesu, your point has been made several times on this thread. Please step away from the thread now, as repeating the same point over and over is not helpful and it's taking away from the support that the original poster was asking for.

***Let's try to get this thread back on topic and to the original poster's intent***

We are all responsible for our part in our relationships. However, there are often things that are out of our control and trying to place blame for those things is counter-productive. I'm not saying she isn't responsible for her infidelity, just that there were a lot of other things she WASN'T responsible for.

Thank you TIKY. That was what I meant, and you worded that much better than I did. Looking back, I worded what I said wrong and I can see how it would be offensive. I am definitely responsible for being a WS and for the pain I caused my H with my betrayal, just as he is responsible for his WS status. However, maybe I failed to understand the extent of my H's FOO issues - should I say "it's all my fault for not getting it about his FOO issues and making the M a different place"? No. How could I have known the extent, I'm not a mindreader, and he didn't outright tell me what he needed. I am understanding it now, so I am trying to figure out what would make the M supportive to him so he can safely deal with his FOO issues around me.

I think of it like this. Suppose you have a couple who love each other and want to make each other happy. The wife is always giving her husband back rubs when he might really feel loved from compliments instead. The husband cleans the house for the wife when the wife might really like to take long walks together to feel loved instead. Are we going to blame someone for the relationship not being its best? To me, blaming means that someone's at fault, someone did something bad, someone had bad intentions. In this case, it wasn't a case of someone messing up, it was a case where the couple didn't know there were other ways or didn't understand. So instead of saying, "It's my fault for not knowing you preferred compliments!", a person might say, "Huh, so if I tried this differently, maybe it would make my marriage a different place..."

Back on topic.

Phoenix, none of this is your fault. It is not fair that this was put on you. It sounds like she said something dismissive about the AP, and that made it worse, because it was also dismissing your hurt. Outside of that evening, has she been open to discussing sex with you, or has she been equally closed off? Is she in IC and talking about it?

Hopefully she will open up and share with you. I wonder if it's possible that she feels shame or aversion to sex, and shame for turning you down, so she responds in a standoffish way instead. It's her responsibility to open up to you and tell you what's going on inside, as well as acknowledge how you're feeling. Does she know and acknowledge it's her responsibility to not keep you in the dark and to open up to you about her feelings? It could be that if she starts opening up, then it gets easier in bed, because emotionally she's not holding back. I know emotions and sex are tied together for a lot of people, both men and women.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 12:04 PM, October 13th (Saturday)]

You have every right to feel rejected. You of course would feel that way but shaming you WW to try to get her to have sex with you is wrong IMO. Talking about the affair is 100% okay but when it is used to manipulate it is wrong.

Really if a WS told his betrayed that if she/he wouldn't have sex with him/her that they would get it somewhere else everyone would be telling them what a horrible person they are and they are manipulating the betrayed.

Saying well you never told OM no is a shaming tactic that is basically saying to her well because of that you should never tell me no. That is manipulation.

Waywards cheat because of boundary issues so getting upset when they do them us is counterprodective. healthy people have good boundaries and sometimes that means telling your partner no.

Sex is an important part of a relationship if she constantly refuses than it is a problem and should be addressed as such. As a woman I am not always in the mood but that doesn't mean I can't get there. Instead of instantly going to the negative see if there is anything that might help her get in the mood. She is still a person with feelings even if she is a WW and being a woman creates it's own sets of emotional reasons internally that make her not be in the mood.

Waywards cheat because of boundary issues so getting upset when they do them us is counterprodective. healthy people have good boundaries and sometimes that means telling your partner no.

Wow. This is a very interesting, valuable insight. Thank you. This might help me relate to my H better. I'm trying to respect my son's healthy No as a way to teach him good boundaries, why wouldn't I do the same for my H?

[This message edited by silverhopes at 12:08 PM, October 13th (Saturday)]

phoenix,

This post went 50 directions of sideways last night and I didn't respond to your original post. My apologies for that.

I've read your other post (about blowing a gasket), too, and I can see how you're just absolutely frustrated. I don't think you're in R. I think you WANT to be, but your W isn't in it 100% with you.

I can see how wanting sex to try to feel connected, then getting rejected would make you not want to initiate. And it's OK not to want to initiate. If you take sex out of the picture, you'll be able to see if there's anything to work with in the relationship. Sex often creates a 'false intimacy'. Some people even think intimacy=sex, but it doesn't. Emotional intimacy can happen without sex. In fact, it is MUCH MORE likely to develop when you aren't dealing with sex.

With all of that said, the turning you down, then freaking about the possibility of a VAR tells me you aren't in R. I'm sorry.

Where do you want to go from here?

Wow, glad I missed this one last night.

Really great insights on this page.

I think sex shouldn't be this transactional thing in a M. My H and I are madhatters and have our own particular circumstances that make sex awkward post HB. I still cry almost every time. We are both fragile.

If he initiated sex and I wasn't really interested and he threw OM in my face, that would not result in sex. Why not?

1) it would imply my lady bits are something he owns and has an entitlement to. "you prob never said no to OM" does not = "open sesame". To me, "open sesame" = "darling I love you and really need to make love with you right now."

2) it would imply that he didn't care about my feelings, at least in that moment

3) why show him that he can get what he wants by throwing down a Trump Card? This is bound to happen again, maybe not with sex next time.

"send me sexting pics."

"no I just ate a burrito and feel gross with a food baby. Maybe after I shower later."

"You probably sent OM sext pix!! "

.....

4) being reminded of OM is a turn off. Which is a good thing. As a BW, if I knew he thought of OW AT ALL and got an erection and tried to have sex with me within the next few minutes, I'd be pretty upset.

I was almost always the one getting turned down by Mr NEM prior to DDay. Now things are different. Knowing he is a SA and the extent of his sex related issues is traumatic for me. Our problem is not really one described by OP, it's more of codependant using sex as a way to keep SA from acting out. But that's our flavor of bedroom issues; everyone is different.

Well hopefully I'm still on topic

I do indeed. What do you call it when someone performs a sexual act for someone else based on an exchange that is not based on desire?

Raise your hand if that never happened in your M for both sides. I'm not saying this is right, but it does happen and if it's not the normal it's also not the end of the world.

In a "normal" marriage, you're correct. Enjoying giving your partner pleasure can very easily be its own reward.

They dynamics as well as the surrounding statements and environment on this thread is something different.

My question was, and still is, if establishing intimacy and sexual activities is the goal to help reclaim, rebuild, repair the ginormous blow to self confidence and ego a partner choosing to fuck another causes how does throwing up the tool used to do that as a reminder and way of shaming said interaction gonna do that.

It wasn't about acusations or judgement. It was a genuine question based on the fact it would create the exact opposite feelings in me. It baffles me every time I see it.

Pain tends to create its own narcissism, at times. Totally normal. Just tends to be dangerous. Like swimming next to a drowning man. Rather than saving him you are more likely to be pulled under too.