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I've got nothing to offer you in terms of advice william but I wanted you to know that I heard you and I'm thinking of you. How are you holding up today?

I Think your W is to damaged. You will never again be able to trust her and I'm pretty sure she will cheat again.

I Think the best thing for you would be to D your W and find a woman that isn't crazy. Staying with your W will just cause you a lot of pain and hurt. It will also shorten your Life by many years from all the stress you will have. Please for your own sake, leave her.

im doing okay today. been keeping busy. went with my wife to take our daughter to the dentist, a small cavity. its been a tough couple of days.

it appears the military machine is starting to roll, i get daily calls now from a few different people and it appears that i "may" finally be in contact with the right people for counseling but im not sure yet. ill know by the end of the day though.

@ tom.

im not sure if i agree.

im not blameshifting, rug sweeping, or similar. but ... in a 2 year period my wife and i stopped talking, her mom died, her dad almost died, her brother self destructed on a near daily basis, her family business almost went under and she had to work almost 16-18 hours a day (most days) to try to save it, money was really tight, her mom and dad continued telling her on a near daily basis that she was a whore and worse (and no, they have no idea of the affairs, etc this is how they NORMALLY talked to her) and EVERYTHING else in life went just as bad.

im not saying that justifies her decision making. there really isnt any excuse or justification. almost every decision she made during this time period was wrong (the ONSs, the LTA EA/PA, the sexting and pics, the drinking on a daily basis, suicidal thoughts, deliberately avoiding her family - daughter and i, etc). she knew it was wrong and still continued doing it. i think she crashed. i own at least 50% of the problems of our marriage and so does she, she owns 100% of this crap.

i think she tried to hurt and degrade herself. i think that her thoughts of hurting me and her daughter were something along the lines of "ill get caught doing this stuff and he will take her away from me and its better that he do so because im a total sh*t as a person and they will be better off without me". i never suspected because ... stupidly i trusted someone 100%.

she quit all of the affairs, the contacts, drinking, etc on her own - before i knew and before we had even considered an "us" again from the terrible marriage we were in.

shes made a committment to us, shes showing remorse, shes transparent, shes honest, shes willing to go to IC/MC, etc, etc.

i think that for the rest of our lives i need to be totally aware and alert to the possibility that she crashes again. next time i wont be there to pick up the pieces, instead i leave. there is no "next chance", this is it. period. but i do need to be aware and keep somewhat of an eye out. yes, i agree with you there.

howoever, this is where i disagree tom. i dont think there can EVER be such a replication of events in her life all at once. shes no longer involved in the family business and never will be again. her mom is dead. she doesnt need to work 18 hours a day. pretty soon the money issues wont be so intense. no, those dont justify anything. however, they all played a role of some sorts increasing vulnerability. so i think the chances of this kind of break down "again" are slim".

what do the rest of you think? am i full of bull and grasping at a straw or am i seeing pretty clearly? please let me know because right now i cant even trust my own thought processes completely.

and yop25 - thanks bro :)

William - You base your asumptions on that all these things need to happen for your W to flip. I bet that is not the case.

THere is Always gonna be shitty situations happening, your M will go upp and down.

So basically there will Always be justifications for her to flip. Not the same justifications perhaps but still...

Your W just flipped to such a degre that it's very dificult for me to accept that she is not damaged and in a very real and probabel Place psycologicaly to have it happen again.

The thing is the risk of it happening again is a lot larger for your wife that for someone who had a ONS or a short A. You got to Think about yourself. Do you want to experience a repeat of this a year or 2 in the future. What will that do to you?

From my perspective the risk is to high and the cost for you to high...

Sometimes we have to keep trying even when from the outside it doesn't make sense. I really think that. At least in the immediate aftermath, when everything is so confusing and overwhelming. It takes time for the dust to settle, for us to try and see who the person we're with really is. How can you look at someone you love who has behaved so badly and yet says they know it was wrong and compute it? And who knows who the 'real' her is? She may not even know.

So get counseling for yourself, have her get counseling, see how she behaves, and take the risk if you need to. A very good friend told me I was 'suicidal' and 'desperate' for giving my exWBF another chance. I was so insulted by that. Was she right about him in the end? WEll...yes. But I knew--I KNEW--I could handle the pain of learning I was wrong about his ability to change. And when that pain did come, I handled it. I knew it was a risk and I decided I loved him enough, believed in him enough, to take it. I look at other people on here who pull back and protect themselves and I definitely envy their strength and ability to detach, but just because I kept trying then didn't mean I can't detach now.

Does that make sense? It's your life. It's your marriage. Your WW is a danger to you given her behavior in the past, yes, and maybe she can't change, but if you're not certain yet of the odds, if you can't pull back yet.... I understand that. Take care of your interests as you go forward, don't trust blindly, don't only see the hope you want instead of what's really there, but do what you feel you have to do. It is hard to let go and takes time sometimes to know the right move. It made me feel like I was split in half to want to trust and not be sure if I was being stupid in trusting, but I wasn't capable yet of giving up, and I knew that and rolled the dice.

Right now you're waiting to see if you get snake eyes or not on that roll. That's okay, IMO. If you do, you'll be able to move forward from that point on knowing you gave it your all.

exactly nora. thats what i feel like. its time to roll the dice. if and when our marriage comes to an end i want it to be after ive tried everything possible to save it. i love her and DO take my vows seriously. im willing to try to get over what shes done and to heal. im willing to give her a chance to heal herself. im willing to commit to our marriage and reconciliation. im willing to trust but verify.

im NOT willing to tolerate ANY dishonesty, concealment, lying, less than 100% transparency, any inappropriate behavior, etc. if i saw even 1 tiny step outside of the boundaries i can and would leave. she has to behave as a wife to be my wife.

Hey there William,

I love Nora's comments. My path did not follow the prescribed path... I knew many would have advised me to walk away. And yes, I realize that I certainly am accepting a risk. For my H, remorse came very slowly, although he did try for a long time. I am at a much different place today than I thought. I would be. Today is my Antiversary and I am doing FINE. Anything is possible. You need to follow your heart, while keeping your eyes wide open, and your brain engaged. It's okay. It sounds like you are doing those things. I , too, wanted to know I gave my M a chance. It's really turning around for me. I wish you all the best on your journey. Everyone here does.... We all just would like to help you avoid any future pain. You need to do what is right for you.

Good luck!

I agree with Still and Nora. As much as I would like to talk you out of it, you're situation is so extreme I can't say for sure what I would do if I was in your shoes. Taking the risk is not the popular choice. But only time will tell and ultimately you know what is best for you and your family. Know that I continue to think of you and your family.

Keep us posted with the latest.

First IC appt for me today. Baby steps...

yop

I KNOW

- i know that i love her, completely, and with all my heart.

- i know that she spent 2 years sh1tting on me with a multitude of guys and backstabbing me to anyone that was willing to listen.

- that she says that she feels guilty, has remorse, knew it was wrong, that it will never happen again, that she will be 100% honest and transparent, that she agrees to and accepts the boundaries. that she is committed to our marriage and reconciliation.

I THINK

- that she loves me, she tells me so. but then again ... i "thought" that she loved me over the last two years.

- that she has no contact with any of these guys or even people remotely connected to them (including almost every friend she has because they either tolerated, encouraged, or enabled some of her activity that was unacceptable within a marriage) but obviously i cant be sure. i check but its always possible to hide stuff like that.

- that her remorse, guilt, sorrow, and shame are real. that her agreements to transparency, honesty, our marriage, and reconciliation are genuine.

BUT

all i can do is watch her. see if her actions match her words - pretty much "forever". i hope my faith in her and our marriage isnt going to be thrown back in my face by some future actions of hers, i really do. i can rebuild some of my trust in her over a period of time (when actions match words and behaviors continue to be acceptable and within bounds with honesty, transparency, etc) however, ive lost my innocence. no longer will i completely trust in anyone again 100% ...ever. im always going to watch with a jaded and cautious eye, no matter how many years in the future BUT i can get to the point where i no longer wonder the worst immediately (for instance, she calls me on the phone during the day and says "ive got something i have to tell you" ... and i immediately start to shake, get nervous, feel genuine fear, and ask her "yes" ... and then she says i get off 20 minutes later than i thought ... and i heave a sigh of relief).

SO

we could have worked on our marriage before and improved it, solved the problems, etc. but her infidelity (and especially the serial nature of it) has destroyed that marriage and destroyed alot of the trust necessary to have solved those problems. now we start from a position of little trust and with a host of issues that no couple should ever have to face. i tell her that she took our marriage into the street and shot it dead. its easier to heal something than to create from the ruins left behind (because many of those ruins are positive but also many are negative - in effect we lost many positives and gained many negatives from her actions).

AND

i know that if i walked away from this marriage now (by far and away the easiest option to me) i would be walking away from the love of my life and regret it "forever".

BUT

if she ever violates any of the boundaries, stopped showing remorse, behaved inappropriately, wasnt 100% honest and tranaparent, etc (at any time beginning a few weeks ago and continuing onwards "forever") then i CAN and WILL walk away from this marriage and her without feeling that i failed to put everything into it and although i would be sorrowful i would not regret my choice at that time.

does that make sense?

This makes absolute sense to me William. I really hope she can give you what is necessary to save your marriage. And either way, you are going to come out of this stronger and should be proud of yourself.

I totally agree with Nora. Makes sense. You will can come out of this, no matter which way it goes, with your head held high knowing that you gave it everything you have. You are a great person william. Stronger than most. I hope and prey that everything turns out well for you, your daughter, and WW too. I think I'm reading between the lies here but that's what this is all about right? Family.

ETA - added the word knowing above.

[This message edited by yearsofpain25 at 10:28 AM, February 10th (Monday)]

im really afraid that my head is stupid and im thinking with my heart.

Your head isn't stupid, you've got to do what you've got to do. So many sad stories I read on here and think that I'd not put up with it, but reality is I probably would and I put up with a lot that many others wouldn't!

If you need to give it a last shot before you can walk away and not ever have any 'what ifs' and regrets then that's what you must do.

Good luck and I hope it all works out for you

William,

What you said makes sense. My question to you is--do you believe what you are saying?

Don't take that my question is in a wrong or sarcastic tone. My biggest concern for any new member here, is that they gain the strength to walk away....if necessary.

When you reach that point---because let's be honest, most of us are paralyzed to a certain extent post D-day---then your decision making tends to be much more rational. It is not based on fear---fear of the lost marriage, fear of the lost family, and generally the fear of the unknown---so your decisions become a clear CHOICE.

If you are able to walk away, and know that you will be okay, then whatever choice you make will be a healthy one. And if you get burned again in the future, then so be it, because you knew that when you recommitted. There is always a chance of failure.

But at least it was your choice.

jb3199 What you wrote is critical.

As long as you are not OK with the thought of D and you feel OK about it, know that you are gonna be fine if you D you are in a bad Place.

If your W does something bad again will you realy be able to leave then? I know you write that you are gonna leave if she does but will you realy be able to? You need to reach the possition that you know it yourself that you are gonna leave and that you feel OK with that.

@ nora

she says she is commmitted to trying to give me what i need. so far i cant think of anything that she could be doing that she hasnt done and she is doing lots of things that i wouldnt have even considered but that help alot.

the one thing i do need more of from her is physical touch. not always sex (although we have had some HB) but more hugs, kisses, and signs of affection and love. she does alot of that but we have a small 7 yr old daughter that is seeing mom home alot more than she has been for years and is still getting less attention from than she is used too. during those years i was the one who played with her, did everything for her, and was her "rock". now i feel so worn out, empty, and full of pain that i often just feel i "cant". my distance is tearing up my daughter, i can see it and its not really fair to steal yet more time from her. unexpected fallout from the affairs. we are doing more "family stuff" than we ever did before - card and board games together, etc. i guess i need to talk to my wife about my needs and see how we can try to fit it in without hurting our daughter more.

@yop25

partly it is all about family and children. i have an 11 year old son who lives in germany with a previous gf. when i say she has a heart of stone, i mean it. even her own mom doesnt talk to her anymore. he comes here, i go there .. but its not the same as being there. hes got some serious issues because dad isnt there. id not willingly do this to another child after seeing the consequences to this one.

but its also my wife. as angry as i am at her, as betrayed as i feel, as much pain as she caused me .. i still love her.

i also know that i was NOT the ideal husband. i made lots of mistakes, serious ones. they dont justify what she did but that doesnt change that i amde some serious mistakes in our marriage.

those three things are pretty significant to me.

@jb3199

no worries, i dont take what you say the wrong way. sometimes its important to have someone (especially people who KNOW what they are talking about and have been through it) question. my wife knows about this site (but not the name) and plans on coming here later (its too early for me now to "share" this safe haven with her) - i tell her at least every few days that this is THE SINGLE GREATEST WEBSITE i have ever found in my life. bar none. its because of the people here and the support given, and yes ... that includes the HARD questions.

but ... yes i do believe what i am saying.

the easiest thing for me to have done would have been to walk away. i was tempted. especially pre -D-DAY before i even knew about affairs because our marriage had become intolerable for me. i even outlined the discussion as to "why" i was leaving and put it in an email to myself and planned on having the discussion around the beginning of 2013 but then postponed the decision due to the obvious crash of my wife (she got suicidal, etc). i felt that even though the marriage was over ... that i owed this woman more than walking out on her while she was crashing. then things got better and i held off more. then came D-DAY (which was filled with half truths, much omissions, and even more outright lies) and i considered it again. but not as seriously ... because i began to see that she was making an effort. then we agreed to try and the subsequent revelations came out in TT (about 6 months later for the "real truth" about her LTA, about a week or two later for the sexting, and a day later about the ONS). i never really considered leaving her during that time. i dont know why. i guess because i could FINALLY see that she was trying to work on "us" versus so much neglect, apathy, and anger.

the biggest stumbling blocks i can see regarding ME going forward from here to a healthy marriage are trust and fear.

trusting her to make wise and healthy decisions will be very difficult. my "auto" is to distrust people (to varying degrees and to be watchful, alert, and attentive to the possibility that they are not what they may seem and may have an agenda that is harmful to me or those i love - definitely a learned thought process from my spec ops days) and she is the ONE that i trusted, completely, utterly, without reservation. so the only one i trusted betrayed me. thats going to be hard to "get over" and i will never trust anyone 100% again in my life, never. those days are gone. she can build up a substantial amount of trust over a long period of time by making wise and healthy choices ... forever. i know i cant distrust her "forever", thats not healthy for me, her, or our marriage. but it will be very difficult to allow her to earn trust back and to grant it. i "think" i can do it, but i guess i am not really sure. this is uncharted waters and this time i know that there can be dragons and monsters there versus before i assumed that they were just drawn on the map and were something that was unimportant to me.

also, i fear that she flips that switch and goes freaking crazy again. no disrespect to anyone who has been through various affair types. the eternal "which is worse: the ONS vs LTA, EA vs PA, etc question. this wasnt even about the affairs for her. this was about her deliberately trying to hurt herself, me, and our marriage. suicide in slow motion almost. i get that she had lots of stress and reacted to it in an unhealthy and stupid way. but i also get that she could (as tom pointed out) react in a similar way in the future to lots of stress or even none. i dont know. that makes the dragons and monsters on the map even more scary - because now i dont even know where they are or what form they can take or how she will react to them when she encounters them ... or if it even takes one for her to flip again. so yeah, scary indeed.

i dont think i am paralzyed with fear. im a turtle personality - always moving (albeit slowly) around the world (and come to think of it ... packed away inside of a suit of armor to keep myself safe from the world which is one reason i KNOW i need counseling so badly and am still trying to find it ... the armor has been ripped to shreds and is gone which brings in all the stuff at once that i spent so many years avoiding - friends dying, killing people, emotions i buried, etc). for me to pack up and leave would have been easy. i would have felt bad doing it but ive lived my whole life with having to do things i didnt want to do and being able to live comfortably with the consequences (until recently) of my decisions.

my wife betrayed my trust, treated me as less than a dog, lied to me repeatedly, and did so over an extended period of time with a multitude of guys (and even involved her female friends in her LTA). she was in the same marriage i was and although we both took turns damaging our marriage she was the one that took it out into the street and shot it dead. one of us cheated and it wasnt me. she swore the same oaths i did did and betrayed them, utterly. i see with a clear eye that my wife has serious issues with boundaries - giving people windows into our marriage, creating unhealthy bonds with them, and exposing herself unwittingly to temptations and opportunities for affairs. i know that when faced with these temptations and opportunities she has given into them in the past, and more accurately - even sought them out. so i have absolutely no real logical reason to give her a chance.

and yet, i am giving my wife a chance because i love her. because i KNOW that inside she is a better person than she has shown herself to be over the last 2 years. because i know that if she can straighten herself out and if i can straighten myself out that we can have a good and healthy marriage. because i swore an oath to her and oaths mean ALOT to me, they help define who and what i am as a person - i keep my word, im faithful. because i have a child and know what can happen when one of the parents leaves. because i would want another chance if i were her.

i cant think of a greater gift to give my wife then to offer her a chance when she has utterly betrayed me.

but make no mistake. if i find out that

- she has substantially lied to me (whether via omission, gaslighting, the depth or scale of her past affairs, etc)

- she breaks ANY of the hard boundaries laid out of what is and isnt acceptable

- she breaks the agreement to honesty and transparency

- she breaks NC

- she begins any new affairs

- she lacks committment to our reconciliation or marriage

then im done. the word discussion implies there is information being exchanged, so i hesitate to call it a discussion - i would tell her im done, pack, and immediately leave. we would have to be in contact due to our daughter but that would be the extent of it. no new chances. no forgiveness. no mercy. its over. period. she knows about each of the things that would be considered unacceptable and knows the consequences (i leave and immediately file for divorce).

yes. i would miss her. yes. i would still love her. no. i would not be willing to tolerate it again - not even in a "minor dose". thats the line and its been drawn pretty clearly.

@tom

i dont know what you mean by i feel "okay with that". i would have tears in my eyes - but i would be walking out of the door while those tears were in my eyes. no second guessing. no maybe i was hasty. it would be done. forever. no do over, no retry, no chances. done. is that what you mean or did i misunderstand?

---------------

this site has been really invaluable because it favors finality and really makes one examine what is and isnt acceptable. i thought i knew in the past but like many here realized that i would give a chance whereas before i never believed that i would. now i just worry about my decision making and that i am somehow fogging myself.

Hi william,

I don't think you are fogging yourself. You've stated over and over again that you are aware of the potential consequences of moving forward with your wife towards R. It's not the popular choice here at SI, but I can understand your reasoning. I'm not in your shoes so I can't say with 100% certainty what I would do, but I too would do anything for the aspect of my family. You feel that you owe it to yourself, your wife, and your daughter to give it your all.

Reading back through your posts I can see, hear, and feel both your desperation and your strength to try and be bigger than this horrible mess. I can see, hear, and feel your love for your wife and family. I hear that you are trying to be a better husband and father. Those are the same reasons I am here at SI. I hear you say that your wife is doing the same to be a better wife and mother. Your love is vast william. Don't ever let anyone tell you differently and don't second guess yourself on this. I see all of this in your writing.

Look back through this thread william. You are a fighter. You are fighting like crazy right now against all odds. You have a huge set of balls. No matter what happens in the end, you know that you gave it everything you had and then some.

You know through all of these posts that everyone is thinking of your best interests and are genuinely concerned about you and that daughter of yours too. Including myself. We want to make sure that you get some of that "shredded armor" back. Your wife and her actions are going to be the key. You know that you don't have control over what your wife's actions and "all you can do is watch her. see if her actions match her words - pretty much "forever". That scares you and everyone else here that reads and posts to your story. Fear. Fear of what could potentially happen. Bottom line is that know one really knows how this is going to turn out for you one way or another. So keep watching her. Make sure she follows through with getting help. Make sure you follow through with getting yourself help. Hold both yourself and herself accountable. I believe you are already doing this and you have your list of deal breakers. Stick to them.

I don't want to speak for everyone here, but I think it's safe to say, WE ARE ALL AFRAID TOGETHER. We all don't trust your wife either. Only time time and her actions can heal that. The hard thing to do is of you to take a leap of faith in your marriage, her as a wife, and her as mother. Just because you are taking the hard route, don't second guess yourself.

I know you have stated that you also don't know all of the details yet and maybe things will change yet again. Maybe they wont. With your discussions with your wife (rhetorical questions):

Have you been 100% honest with her in how you currently feel?

Does she know of your fear?

Does she know how your heart leaps into your throat when she calls and says "ive got something i have to tell you"?

That trust is going to be something that she is going to have to work on "forever" with you?

That it will never be back to where blind trust once was, but that trust can be rebuilt through her actions?

Does she truly understand that her betrayal has hurt not just you, but the family as a whole?

That even if your daughter doesn't know all of the gory details that her life has been forever changed too because her environment has been forever changed?

Does she know how you think that she was slowly killing herself instead of just committing suicide and that you are grateful that you get a second chance at a life and family with her?

Does she know that you need more hugs, kisses, and signs of affection and love?

Does she know that these signs of affection and love can have a profound impact on not just you but your daughter as well (my wife and I have noticed this while working on our own marriage issues)?

Does she know that you feel so worn out, empty, and full of pain that you often just feel you "cant"?

Have you said this to her:

because i KNOW that inside she is a better person than she has shown herself to be over the last 2 years. because i know that if she can straighten herself out and if i can straighten myself out that we can have a good and healthy marriage. because i swore an oath to her and oaths mean ALOT to me, they help define who and what i am as a person - i keep my word, im faithful. because i have a child and know what can happen when one of the parents leaves. because i would want another chance if i were her.

?

The list could go on forever but these are all things that she needs to hear from you repeatedly and she needs to answer these types of questions to you...repeatedly. Not just for your assurance, but for hers, and for you all as a family. Communication william. Communication on both of your parts. Communication with your daughter as well. You don't have to go into gory details with your daughter but you should engage her somewhat with how she is feeling. How does she like mommy being around more and that daddy is having a hard time right now? It will help with your daughters insecurities to have communication with her as well. It's probably going to be one of the hardest and most necessary pieces to this whole mess moving forward. Communication is all that more difficult with your emotions running high. That's how fear and trust are going to have to be handled. I certainly don't want to tell you what to do and I don't mean to sound all preachy. Hopefully I didn't come off that way.

Thinking of you william. Stay strong. Keep fighting.

yop.

While you are attempting R and watching your WW for how she handles the next crash, I urge you to build yourself up from within..Hobbies, friends, skills, a life that is yours aside from married or family life...This life that you have built for yourself will be the life that you will be living if you move on without WW, so you want it to be sustainable and allow you and kiddos to thrive..

Your WW needs serious help in learning new coping skills, because life will crash in on her again...Life always presents problems and challenges as well as the blessings..

[This message edited by doggiediva at 9:55 AM, February 11th (Tuesday)]

William - Have you read a book called "Married Mans Sex Primer" by Athol Kay? I Think you should.

This book talks about a lot of things. In short it is about how to make your M better for both you and your W. One key thing though is this:

There are a lot of Women out there that would be very good for you as a wife. It's not very difficult to be a good wife to a man. What you feel for your current W is not irreplaceable.

Everybody tend to put a lot into the "love" you share with your partner. However if you realy dig down into it, "love" is just a bunch of substances running around your brain. These are easily gotten from someone else.

If you get this concept you will be "OK with that". You will know that you will find Another W that will fullfill your needs. You will know that your "love" is replaceable and that you will be OK if you D.

You need to look at your M without the hormones clouding your mind.

Now as I said the book is all about making your M better for all of the family. To do this you work on you to be a better man so whether you decide to R or D it is a good read for any man.