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I don't think that either of you should send AP a letter. He has asked for no contact and I think that he has threatened legal action.

If you want to write letters... fine.

Do not send letters, though.

I think it's alright of your H sends a letter - just be wary of threats or anything that can cause legal difficulties for your H. He'd be handing AP physical proof of threats so be careful. With regards to you sending a letter - I agree with Barcher. You've been advised that further contact will result in legal action. He sent a text stating as much...you're on notice.

Also - there is no such thing as closure. NC serves as closure - mental and physical. AP is nothing...treat him as such.

[This message edited by sassylee at 10:25 PM, April 16th (Sunday)]

Unless it is a legal document like a restraining order, sending the OM a letter telling him how awful he is or how much he ruined your marriage, he shouldn't have done what he did or your H wants to kill him is not a good idea.

1. You and the OM were equal partners in the A so whatever is said to the OM goes more for you, as OM made no vows to your BS

2. By sending the OM a letter you break the NC.

3. You are giving him power as he knows that you and BS still think about him and he is still a thorn in the marriage. He could take some perverse pride in the long shadow he is still casting over your marriage.

Closure is a sort of a high schoolish cry of "And I'll hate you forever!!!" or (not in this case) a last attempt to see if things really are over.

Ignore the OM and strive for indifference about him, don;t be distracted, you have a helluva slog in front of you...

Write the letter, print it out and burn it if you must get it on paper.

The purpose of the letter as far as mine would be concerned is to state that i truly regret what happened, that I never want to have any further contact (even though he has made it clear he wants no contact either, i feel it's important that he know I don't want any either) and that my H and I are fully committed to repairing our marriage. It's not so much for AP's benefit, but for my H to see concretely that I am also communicating my regret over what happened, and more importantly, my desire to never see or hear from him again. One of H's biggest issues right now is thinking that AP and I are still in contact. I think it would benefit him the most to see that effort made by me to take ownership for what happened, and also to show initiative for ensuring no further contact will ever be welcomed by him, like if his wife kicks him to the curb again and he starts getting ideas.

There would be no threats in any letter. Nor promises to ruin his name or kick his ass.

Several recommended books about infidelity have recommended this kind of closure as it gives both spouses, especially the betrayed one, visible and concrete proof of effort to maintain NC.

swinters,

I didn't get a chance to read the whole thread.

I'm at that point as well. I want to recover her deleted texts and possibly read them. Mostly I want to know if she's broken NC lately. AP texted her recently and she texted and called him back. 6 weeks gone.

My gut is getting that feeling again. Like something is really wrong. She's starting to lord over her phone again. No unlock codes on it. But I knew that she deleted texts on it before.

I don't know what reading them will do for me. It will probably only make me feel shittier. But I need to know.

Squid, I'm so sorry you're having to go through this again. I think every subsequent time you have to deal with these emotions it gets exponentially worse. At least that's what I've seen in my own husband. I have to say that her guarding her phone is very shady and raises all sorts of alarms. One thing I am doing right now to be a safe partner is literally leaving my phone sitting on the coffee table, kitchen counter, the bathroom counter etc. and I rarely have it on my person when I'm home. My husband knows the passcode and there of been times I've walked in and he's been looking at my phone and I am totally fine with that. If I were walking around keeping it in my back pocket at all times like I was before then I'm sure his anxiety would be that much worse. The thing is, unless I'm expecting a text from AP, what could be the harm of leaving my phone out? If the ringer is on I'll hear it if it rings or if I get a text. There is absolutely no excuse to hide ones phone unless they are hiding something on it.

In my opinion, if your wife is truly remorseful and trying to change and understand the hurt she has caused you, she will be completely transparent. And not just if you ask her to be but voluntarily initiating it. Like downloading an app that lets you see where she is at all times as well as viewing the history of where she's been (don't get Life360, it is not always reliable- it showed I was halfway across town yesterday morning when I was asleep in bed with my husband awake in the house- he had had a lot of anxiety prior to that because he couldn't tell if the app was malfunctioning or if I was lying- now he knows for sure it's screwy). It's worth it to pay for it if it works (BTW if anyone recommends one, we need a good one). Anyway, The gist of what I'm getting at is that while I was lying and being deceitful I never volunteered any transparency. I picked fights to get out of the house, I didn't let my phone out of my sight, I change my password every day and explained it away by saying I was trying to keep my son from playing games on it, etc. If she is truly truly having no contact and wants to reconcile, she will show you by her actions. I really hope she comes around and even if she proves to still be cheating, then at least she can be honest about it.

Has your husband seen the responses from your AP after you broke NC from before? If he has, then it seems pretty clear that the AP already stated NC by that text. In our case the AP wouldn't leave us alone. Hence, why we sent letters. But, your AP hasn't broken NC. You have and he has stated more than once to leave him alone. I get wanting to prove concretely to your husband and him wanting the AP to be taken down. But, honestly I think the AP already established that himself.

i truly regret what happened, that I never want to have any further contact (even though he has made it clear he wants no contact either, i feel it's important that he know I don't want any either) and that my H and I are fully committed to repairing our marriage.

For who? For your husband? I get that. To the AP about your husband? He isn't going to care. He already established that. He wants you to leave him alone.

and also to show initiative for ensuring no further contact will ever be welcomed by him, like if his wife kicks him to the curb again and he starts getting ideas.

Unlikely. After his messages. He hasn't broken NC for months. Wouldn't matter anyways. Even if he did, your job is to shut him down. Change your phone number if you are afraid he might break contact in the future.

IMO you are asking for trouble. It is one thing if the AP has been bothering you guys or if there was nothing ever stated. It is a whole other ball game when the OM specifically stated to have NC several times. That was the NC letter on his part. If I had already established NC and my AP later sent a letter after months of silence I would have thought the AP was mooning after me and still thinking about me. Honestly, I would think it was baiting. I know I wouldn't have given a damn about how I hurt her marriage or husband back then. I would have had a restraining order put out. Just saying. From one male wayward that had an AP that wouldn't keep NC. I easily went to indifference till the AP continued to bother us and then it went to disgust and hate. I wish she had just disappeared.

This is so much worse than D day. It's exactly 4 weeks later and the hope I had before is all but gone. The remnant of self esteem and self respect I had then, as a result of false affirmation by another lying monster, is gone. I do not now nor did I ever, deserve the love of this man, my husband. Now he is seeing that. And I can't imagine him being able to stand being with me anymore now that he sees the real person he married. I think he is horrified that he had such bad judgment. But now there are children, and he won't leave easily because he is a wonderful father and worries too much about what a broken home will do to them. I have no doubt that if we were childless I would have already lost him.

I'm still going forward. I'm still existing. I'm still able to feed my children and make sure they are safe. That's about al I am capable of right now. Please keep praying for us and or children. And please keep posting because this is my only lifeline.

Swinters, I am about 2 years out from where you are now...

My wife, a dentist, had an affair, but I downloaded all her texts myself from her phone. They were not explicit, and it required two polygraphs to get confessions to the full extent. It took me a year to get the full truth.

It is always better to get the truth out sooner, rather than later. The trickle truth and ass covering and denial are nearly as bad as the affair.

I can now see that my wife was a monster. Was. There was a time where she shed the contorted views and reestablished herself as a loving, kind, caring wife.

I view her as a lying, cheating, adulteress. But she has shed that and it lays in the past. There is no denying that she was that, and to a point, you can never deny who you were. We can be defined by the sum of our actions. But sum is not the correct term. I view our present actions as far, far more important than our past actions. In time (years) he will most probably see it like me. You were a monster, for a time. But that time has past, and you are now a kind, loving, and faithful wife.

My shame still covers me like a cloak. My humiliation I wear daily. It is, at times, overwhelming, but I'm getting better day by day. This may be your husband two years from now.

But I love my wife and she loves me. I feel her respect and appreciation. The pain fades and we are healing. The words she texted to him still burn when I think of them, but much less so now. She was a monster then, but is not that person now and never will be again. She has shed her lying ways and is honest and truthful.

But without the basic truth, I could not have healed. Without the answers, I was stuck in limbo. For over a year I was in limbo waiting for the truth. You absolutely cannot forgive that which you do not know or understand.

So take heart. Take care of you. Things will get better over time. Keep writing, as interaction will help change you and put miles between you and the monster you once were. What you do today defines you far more than who you once were.

Zug,

You're right. But it hasn't been months, it's been a little over 4 weeks. But it's still true that he hasn't tried to break NC and has given me no reason to think that he will. I think I'm a way it's wishful thinking on my part to think someone is pining for me. Just another ego kibble. Just being honest. My husband's motive is more like murder through letter.

Anyone telling you not to be 100% transparent no matter what your BH wants is giving you horrible advice. Hold back anything and he'll look at it as more betrayal.

Just want to say I'm holding nothing back. I've made it available for him to see and told him if he wants to read it then he is free to do so.

I had no luck retrieving the texts I deleted from Verizon or Apple support. I had no backup to iTunes or iCloud. I don't see how here's any possible way to recover them. They took up physical storage on my phone and now they are gone and the storage has been freed up. So how is there any way possible to retrieve them? Even if I could pay someone to do it, how is it technically possible? Anyone know? They were all iMessages so verizon said they had nothing to do with iMessages, that it was entirely an Apple issue. But apple said if I had not backed up my data to cloud or iTunes then they were truly gone forever.

Swinters - Glad that you are doing as well as can be expected for this time. I am glad that you posted and glad so many knowledgeable folks are providing you with excellent advice.

It has been difficult to read this but I am glad I did. It reminded me of in the beginning my husband said to me that he knew I hated him. Again this is me coming from a mature place - I don't hate him...I hate what he did. I had not given this a lot of thought until your post. He is trying and I need to extend more good will to help him along. My pain has been so great that I have not really thought of the pain he has since it was his own choices that created the pain. I don't want him to think that I hate him....I don't.

It is nice to see people can help each other on both sides of the fence here.

Hugs to you.

Swinters- I did a spotlight search on wh iPhone. I just swiped right and typed in something I was searching for. My wh disguised mow with just a letter so I put in that letter. I got loads of texts but just the first line.

I googled for something like iPhone forensic experts and found one not far from me. I still wish I didn't let him delete and took the phone to them.

I've been following your thread but got my own stuff going on so haven't had the strength or anything beneficial to add.

The tracking app we use is Family Maps. It's mostly reliable. Occasionally it sends one of us on a jaunt across a field at 3am but there haven't been any times I've been out and about that it hadn't worked. Hth.

Oh my Lord, I need you guys to help me. The post I wrote today about "wishful thinking that AP is pining for me" has my husband now thinking I still want to be with AP. Of course looking at it from his perspective I can see how he'd read it that way, and I have been texting with him for the last 30 minutes trying to explain what I mean. This is what I've said to him:

When he asked, "you hope that he is still pining for you":

"Yes I do. I hope he is and that it kills him that he can't have me. So? It doesn't mean I want him. It means I want him to suffer."

When he asked why I felt the need to be desired by anyone but him:

"Because I have always been that way. It is a huge "issue" of mine. The need to be found desirable, attractive, interesting, fascinating. It's a kind of narcissism. I've felt that way my whole life. It's something I need to work on in therapy. It doesn't matter who it is that sees me that way. I should be content knowing that God sees me that way. But I am broken and have no self esteem and I look for it in the way others see me."

Can anyone help me explain this better? That wanting to be wanted doesn't mean I want to be with the wanter? I know it's sick and unhealthy, but as I told him, I'm plowing through some deep shit that has been "hiding under rocks" for 30+ years. Just realizing that I made a huge mistake having an affair doesn't mean I'm automatically cured of the issues that led me to making that decision to be unfaithful. This is the really ugly part, the ugly honest truth about me. I guess maybe it's too much honesty for him to deal with right now and I should save that kind of information for IC. But I KNEW he would read my post and I honestly didn't think he would interpret it as me wanting to be with the AP. But now I have gone and ripped the fucking scab right back off. I can't do anything right without screwing it right back up.

Please help me help him understand what it's like to have such low self-esteem that you want to be wanted even though you don't want every person who wants you.

[This message edited by swinters at 12:20 PM, April 17th (Monday)]

Can anyone help me explain this better?

No, I think that you explained it pretty well.

Because I have always been that way. It is a huge "issue" of mine. The need to be found desirable, attractive, interesting, fascinating. It's a kind of narcissism. I've felt that way my whole life. It's something I need to work on in therapy. It doesn't matter who it is that sees me that way. I should be content knowing that God sees me that way. But I am broken and have no self esteem and I look for it in the way others see me

.

If I am to quibble with this, I would write it this way:

Because I have always been that way. It is a huge "issue" of mine. The need to be found desirable, attractive, interesting, fascinating. It's narcissism. I've felt that way my whole life. It's something I need to work on in therapy. It doesn't matter who it is that sees me that way. I should be content knowing that God sees me that way. But I am broken and have no self esteem and I look for it in the way others see me.

Although your comments are precipitating a painful conversation I think it is really getting to the bottom of the issue. Your need to seek external affirmation was/is your weakness, not the POSOM that became your AP. Your AP simply spotted your weakness and exploited it to get what he wanted. There was nothing special about him. Paradoxically, that should be both somewhat relieving to your H (AP doesn't have some magically quality that makes him desirable), but also very concerning (if you don't fix your issue it is possible that you will repeat your choices to meet your need for external validation).

I believe this is what is meant by the WS doing the heavy lifting to figure out what is broken in them. I think you now both know what a big issue is, and that is why IC before MC is so important. Make yourself safe by working with an IC to correct any narcissistic tendencies, and when your H sees you have successfully dealt with those issues he may be able to trust you enough to work on building a better M with you. That is when MC will have the greatest benefit.

swinters,

I think my WW suffers from exactly the same issues. However, she's more content to blameshift all of the problems onto me and our M.

Lack of lifting indeed. She's still in sprint mode.

Keep up the fight. You'll only grow from it. As a BS, I'm rooting for you.

[This message edited by squid at 1:34 PM, April 17th (Monday)]

I admire your honesty swinters. I cringed when I read the post about wanting the OM to still want you.

Your explanation makes sense but to your H I can see how you wanting this approval (still!) from the OM would be a kick in the gut.

Keep on pedalling, you are making progress!