SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

For those asking, the mc session is not for R, it's for establishing sufficient trust between us to enable an amicable termination of the marriage, rather than an ugly and expensive one.

It's also to appease her mom I'm sure. Apparently her mom wants us to continue living under one roof until both kids are 18. It's preposterous, but that's what she did. She is super against divorce. Neither WW nor I look at her parents' decision to keep up appearances for several more years as one worth emulating. WW's family is Exhibit A regarding why that would be pretty much the worst possible solution.

And I think it's also to build a record for the court to look at later on, to say, "see, I tried hard to save the marriage."

I'm just gonna let her talk for the first 15-20 minutes and only afterward lay out my expectations of her.

I have just caught up with your thread and admit that I'm a bit confused about your actions.

You have been given the precious gift of insight into your wife's affair that is STILL GOING ON. It's not as if she's trying to reconcile, or that she feels the least amount of remorse for having torn up your family. She is unashamedly still in the affair. Fortunately, you discovered information that allows you to no longer need to wonder "if."

For me, as pro-reconciliation as I am, I have ZERO support for a wife who, upon discovery, continues the affair right in the husband's face. To me, you owe her nothing. And you owe her mother nothing.

Marital counseling? For what? To establish trust? If you think that marital counseling is going to make your wife (you know, the person with the shitty boundaries?) be kinder and gentler to you through the divorce I think you're kidding yourself.

And going to MC to "appease her Mom???" With all due respect, f%&* her mom. Once divorce proceedings move forward do you think her mother is going to give a rats ass about YOU?? Blood is much thicker than water, my friend.

At the end of the day, even with all the new information you have discovered, your wife is just like all the other lying, cheating POS that we read about on this forum - particularly the ones who stay in the affair. Treat her like one. If you pay for her phone, stop. If she's sleeping in the master bedroom, kick her rear end out and let her sleep on the couch. Tell her mother, in absolutely NO uncertain terms, that her daughter is still fucking another guy and since she doesn't seem capable of intervening to help, you'll just assume she is supportive of the affair. Stop bringing a knife to a gunfight.

This woman is flaunting an affair in your face. I know it's tough right now but you need to file asap and let your wife know that you will NOT be treated like this. Show your kids that you won't stand up to this type of treatment and that you value yourself. Protect yourself.

It seems like you've come a long way. Keep moving yourself out of infidelity by putting yourself and your kids first. Your wife is not deserving of kid-glove treatment.

[This message edited by LifeisCrazy at 9:47 AM, April 25th (Tuesday)]

So, the ONLY reason for the MC session is to establish how to successfully terminate the marriage with the minimal damage to the kids?

The ONLY reason for the MC session?

You are both committed to ending the marriage?

If that’s so then don’t bother snooping, discovering more, preventing her from seeing OM or whatever.

Focus on getting out of infidelity. Snooping and all that is comparable to dragging a heavy weight along on the path out of infidelity. If you are determined to end the marriage, then make your path out as fast and easy as possible.

If – however – there is still some wish to reconcile then I would offer a totally different approach…

For those asking, the mc session is not for R, it's for establishing sufficient trust between us to enable an amicable termination of the marriage, rather than an ugly and expensive one.

If you want amicable divorce then talk to your attorney about the mediation process. MC are not lawyers and you should be VERY careful about what you say and agree to in front of a third party who can be subject to subpoena. Remember, her enabling friend is a judge. Your WW will get advice from her if not already.

Lawyer up first THEN go to MC and agree on terms that are not conflicting with the legal advice you will be getting.

She is going to try and drag you down in MC. She will also dispute everything you say. Keep your head down and make your part short and sweet. Or better yet.....just laugh.

[This message edited by Smillie at 10:47 AM, April 25th (Tuesday)]

Have you called her on being just like her father?

Have you pointed out to her what she gave up to be with a man that had no intentions of breaking up his family?

Regarding the reunion, I would just tell her if she ever went again you would tell everyone there the nasty details of her affair. Reunions are fun and she needs to be excluded so your reunions aren't affected.

I agree with the assessment that marriage counselling is only for relationships with the brutal truth completely exposed willingly by all parties. I also agree with Bigger that they can be used to assist successfully disassembling the marriage with an eye towards a separated co-parenting effort, but only after receiving clearance from legal counsel.

For those asking, the mc session is not for R, it's for establishing sufficient trust between us to enable an amicable termination of the marriage, rather than an ugly and expensive one.

Trust is impossible without truth.

Right, so WW plans on telling me the full truth at this Mc session. I'm skeptical, because she's still trying to figure out what OBS and I have said to one another, and because I don't think she can get more than 2 minutes into any discussion about the A without going on a 10 minute rant about something my mom said to her some 10+ years ago.

Do you have any suggestions for questions I should ask her? This may be my one bite at this particular apple. My prediction is that she will bottle up completely again after tonight, and the only way to get additional info out of her will be via legal remedies.

I'm glad I read your recent comments, because they will make me especially cautious about what I say during the session. WW has already advised me that she wants me to tell her at the session the specifics about my conversations with OBS and also how it is I know so much.

Possibly related, I discovered this morning that my laptop is suddenly not working properly. IT says it's not a virus. My kids had no clue that there's a problem with the computer. It's hard not to suspect that WW busted it while she was home alone yesterday. She often throws things when she's angry.

Dig, you are too nice for your own good.

She is setting you up to divulge what you know so she only has to admit that much. She is deceptive to her core, and appears to have an equally deceptive AP and A enabling judge friend. That last bit is what really worries me about this situation. You are walking in with no legal advice trying to get the truth from her, and she has legal advice and is bent on keeping you from the truth. Frankly, I don't see how participating in this conversation works in your favor. If you say too much she wins, if you say too little she potentially has the MC on her side in painting you as uncooperative. You need to thread a needle you can't see to break even here. Please give this meeting a second thought until you have a better idea of what can and cannot be used against you in a D.

One last thought, the fact that she is troubled by how much you know, but can't figure out how you know it, should really give you pause. It suggests to me that she has taken great lengths to hide things from you for a long time. Was she only hiding A-related things? How certain are you about the family finances being on the up-and-up?

She has controlled all of the family finances for the entire marriage. It's an issue I'm wary of and the principal reason I'm interested in getting legal advice asap (damn lawyers aren't calling me back). I don't think she has money hidden away because up until now she hadn't thought it was even necessary. But I don't trust her going forward.

She is now indirectly accusing me of violating civil and criminal law for the phone pictures event yesterday. She is calling me and saying things that basically leave no doubt that she is trying to provoke me into lashing out so that I will look like the bad guy who deserved all of this.

It's frustrating but I trust that I am strong. I will be tempted to respond in kind but I will not buckle. At this point I can't think of anything she could say about the affair that would make me angry enough to show it. My expectations of her are too low. I'm willing to endure what she throws at me today because, on the off chance she is strong enough to positively use this session, it will be very beneficial to our children. Today WW appears to be having a "hitting the bottom" moment. It sounds as though her mom really has turned on her (from WW's perspective). I'm not interested in joining her for her way back up, but I'm not going to deny her the chance to recover. And a little part of me is looking forward to being there at the moment she makes impact with the ground.

And I don't intend to reveal anything to her anymore anyway.

I just finished reading the entire thread. I am so impressed, Digi. This is how it's done. All newly BS should read this.

I'm skeptical, because she's still trying to figure out what OBS and I have said to one another

Please heed the warnings you are receiving. Your expectation of having your wife be honest and willing to be truthful in the context of a MC session is likely just a ploy to get you to share your information so that she can rebut, minimize, blameshift, etc. My $0.02 (and it should be superceded by any advice you get from an attorney) is that you should keep any comments to...

"I'm aware that my wife would like me to share what I know and how I know it as she has indicated that it is a topic she'd like discussed during this session. Given how I continue to experience lies and verbal/emotional abuse, my trust has been shattered beyond the damage that the affair caused. As a result, I've come to see that it is odd that I should be the one who is the focus of conversation and who needs to disclose everything in the middle of being lied to and abused over and over again. I feel that handing over all of the evidence will only make it easier for the lies and manipulation to continue. For this reason, I have nothing to say on this topic.

If my wife would like to fully disclose everything and truly end the affair, I'd be open to heading in a different direction. Given where things stand now, the only topic I think that might be covered here is how we might find a way to pursue a fair and reasonably amicable split."

I would send an email or text to Judge Judas and let her know that...her actions may violate the Code of Professional Conduct and Code of Judicial Conduct applicable to lawyers and judges

Talk to an attorney before you do anything. Your main focus needs to be on your wife and the impending split. You don't want to do anything that will hurt you in the process.

As far as the judge goes, she already knows that she is WAY over the line. Don't warn her. Figure out what you are going to do (sue her, push for disciplinary action/loss of job, etc.) and discuss the correct timing for doing so with your attorney.

Have a notebook with you with a lot of writing on several pages. As she talks act like you're checking off things she's saying as if you know way more than she thinks you know. Jedi mind trick works on WS's.

Also, you're doing great not letting her bait you into a fight. Stay strong. No raging. You lose ground when you do that. Keep cool, calm, and collected no matter how big a fit she throws. They hate it when they can't get under your skin. They realize they're losing control over you and that's the last thing in the world they want.

[This message edited by CincyKid at 3:14 PM, April 25th (Tuesday)]

Digi…

For those asking, the mc session is not for R, it's for establishing sufficient trust between us to enable an amicable termination of the marriage, rather than an ugly and expensive one.

How will a timeline, the truth and that stuff make divorce easier?

“Oh honey, since I now know the affair started 16 months ago, then I accept that you get the vase aunt Edna gave us and I get the candlestick Fred gave us. Isn’t it great how we can solve all the issues now I know you were sleeping with OM all that time?”

People don’t divorce because they get along so great. Being amicable certainly makes D easier, but the key is to be realistic and informed. The highest cost and most bitter arguments tend to be over unrealistic and/or unattainable factors like a demand for the house AND full custody AND both cars AND all the pension. You won’t tell her “I trust you that the house is only valued at 20k”, you get the house valued. “I trust your income last year was only 10k” – you get tax returns and bank-statements.

I am a firm believer in dealing with reality with reality… I THINK you have some hope for a come-to-Jesus moment from WW where she repents and opens a path back into the marriage… I THINK that’s why you want the truth, want the MC session and all that.

That’s OK. Giving up on a marriage is a big deal. I can understand the fear of letting go… BUT if that’s what you want then the advice I would offer would be different.

Or not…

IMHO the key factor you should focus on is getting out of infidelity.

IMHO there are only two acceptable ways to do that; divorce or reconcile. To divorce only one of your two needs to want that. To reconcile you both need to commit to it. R requires the truth, divorce doesn’t.

To your advantage then your WW isn’t committed to R, otherwise she would be willing to tell you the truth. Therefore, by default – unless you are willing to remain in infidelity – your only open option is D. So, focus on that. Tell your wife:

“Honey. I refuse to share you. As long as the affair is ongoing you are in infidelity. I am moving my @ss out of infidelity. You can be with OM all you want but not as my wife”.

And then go ahead and prepare and launch the divorce process. It takes time and it’s not the big explosion where you have lined everything up and get everything you want. It takes a long time and there are lots of bridges to cross.

You no longer spend time wondering if she’s with him or if the affair is still going on. After all – you have fired her as your wife and all that’s left is serving the notice-time and negotiating the severance package. Yes – dating him while the process is going on would definitely be in bad taste, but so is having an affair.

She is now indirectly accusing me of violating civil and criminal law for the phone pictures event yesterday.

Please drop any thoughts that your wife is going to be "nice" or "honest" or "amicable". She is at WAR with you and you need to understand this. She is seeking to destroy you and has a judge who is advising her how to get away with it.

Stop sharing information with your wife. Any information she has will only enable her to manipulate, counter, abuse or incite you.

It is too late, but consider what she knows already...

- That you have a line of communication with the OBS

- That you have pictures of her phone/messages

- That you suspect that her judge friend is on her side

As a result, she gets to devise her own strategy to try and gain an advantage. She knows that you have some very damaging information, so her playbook is now going to focus on trying to (1) uncover everything you know, (2) destroy the evidence, (3) go on offense to either get you to back down or (4) provoke you into doing something that puts you at a disadvantage (e.g. false DV claim). In fact, she has already tried some of this...

- She has setup a MC session for you to divulge what you know and how you know it

- Your computer suddenly isn't working

- She is legally threatening you

- She tried to wrestle your phone away from you in the driveway and to block your path where, if you responded with any contact or force she could file a domestic violence claim

The evidence you have is VERY damaging not only to your wife, but to the judge. As a result, you need to not only understand that this is war, but that you are in a situation where you need to protect yourself. I cannot state this firmly enough -- any ideas of this going amicably should now be out the window and you need to see right now that this isn't going to be a nice, fair process.

1. See an attorney now. NOW!!! You're already dealing with your wife having legal advice, so you are fighting a battle unarmed and unprotected. Drive and walk into attorney offices if you have to. For all you know, there could be an attempt underway to cut you off from legal representation. If your wife has visited any of them, they'll refuse to deal with you due to conflict of interest. Who knows what strings the judge could be trying to pull either. Find someone to advise and help you ASAP.

2. Make copies of the pictures you took. Multiple copies. Put them in a few different safe locations. They could be digital copies, but make sure your wife can't get to them and that she doesn't know where they are.

3. Protect yourself from a domestic violence charge. Consider having a VAR or even a GoPro camera on your person at all times (get legal advise on this).

4. Be very, very careful about what you say to anyone else. Especially the MIL. Blood is thicker than water and, for all you know, she could be confronting your wife with everything you say.

5. Your conversations with your wife are over. Other than things to keep the household running (bills, kids, etc.), there is NOTHING to talk about.

6. The MC session is a waste of time and money. It's a ploy to try to get you to talk and/or look bad. Either cancel the session or go in with a statement something like the one I posted earlier.

7. Given your wife's actions in the driveway and her attempts to physically remove your phone, there may be grounds for filing a police report and, potentially, even a domestic violence charge and restraining order against her. Given her aggressive stance, you are in real danger emotionally, physically, financially and relationally with your kids. Get legal advise on this NOW.

8. Don't get sucked in regardless of what she tries or says. No "That is abusive!" or "I'm going to call the cops" or "I was within my rights to take pictures of your phone". If she tries to get you to engage her physically -- even trying to restrain her if she comes at you-- don't do it. Remove yourself from the situation. Disengage. Not doing so only plays to her advantage.

[This message edited by Crushed7 at 3:43 PM, April 25th (Tuesday)]

Digi,

“Right, so WW plans on telling me the full truth at this Mc session.”

You really really really have to be SUPER GUARDED at this MC session. The fact that your WW set it up is a Huge red flag in itself. She has done this because she sees some advantage to it for her. You both know that it is not about saving the marriage, and it certainly isn’t because she suddenly wants to tell the truth after years of lying and denying.

So what might she really be planning to use this session for?

“she's still trying to figure out what OBS and I have said to one another”

“WW has already advised me that she wants me to tell her at the session the specifics about my conversations with OBS and also how it is I know so much.”

And there we have it! She is going to tease you with little bits of information to try and see what you know. She will goad you, bait you, and ask you probing questions, all to try and discover how much you know about certain aspects of her affair, and then to join the dots and find out what part of her communications with the OM you have cracked. And of course she wants to know what you have told the OBS, because she will feed the information straight back to the OM.

Digi, this is not an MC session, she wants it to be an interrogation of you.

She and the OM must be crapping themselves about how much you may have found out, and what information you may have been sitting on for years. Don’t forget, you know how you know this stuff, but she and the OM don’t. For all they know, you could have had private eyes trailing them for years, have all kinds of stuff they now realise might incriminate them. They are in panic mode, and the one thing they need to do is find out exactly how much you know.

DO NOT FALL FOR HER SAYING, "I AM GOING TO TELL YOU EVERYTHING, BUT FIRST I HAVE TO HEAR WHAT YOU KNOW, AND HOW YOU KNOW IT. IF YOU AREN'T PREPARED TO BE HONEST, WHY SHOULD I? SO TELL ME WHAT YOU KNOW, AND I'LL FILL IN THE GAPS."

She will do her best to get it out of you with crap like, “I expect you’ll have told OBS xyz, it would be typical of someone like you to do that”, hoping to provoke you into saying either, “Damn right I did, why shouldn’t I?”, or, if you look totally surprised, WW will know you don’t know about a much bigger element of the affair.

Look at what she did with the “We kissed once two years ago, but nothing more” thing. You thought she was being partially honest, and then you found out that the OM had told his wife that story, and your WW had two reasons to say it to you:

1) To see if you would say, “Yes, I heard that elsewhere”, in which case she would know you and the OBS were actively communicating.

2) She establishes herself as ‘honest’ in case the OBS tells you about the two-year old kiss at a later date.

Now, here’s the thing about the supposedly full confession she plans to make tonight.

If I were in her shoes, I would tell you a minimal amount of the truth and claim it was absolutely everything. Then I would wait for you to say something like, “But what about that weekend in March last year when you said you were looking after your sick mother, but you and the OM were in the Shady Glades motel in San Diego?”

And by your response, she will then be calculating how you could know that, where the digital or paper trail might be, and then figuring out what else you might know if you have access to that particular source of information.

So then she says, “Oh that was just a coincidence. Total coincidence. We just happened to be there at the same time, but we didn’t even see each other”.

At which point you might say, “I’ve got photos of the pair of you having dinner together, and a copy of the booking that says you booked a double room, and no booking made in the OM;s name, so I think we both know what you were doing there”. And so WW has successfully found out that you have used a PI, and also have an external evidence chain.

So she can then give a bit more away, to tease you, to see how you will respond, and if you don’t say much, she then declares that his new stage of the game is the full and complete truth.

At which point – she hopes – you get angry and say, “But what about last June, when…”

And so the game goes on.

This MC session is all about her getting as much as she can out of you, and she will do it by giving you umpteen different versions of “The full and complete” truth, to see which one of her carefully edited packages you are satisfied with. THAT WILL TELL HER EXACTLY HOW MUCH YOU KNOW, AND IT WILL GIVE HER A GOOD IDEA WHERE YOU WILL HAVE GOT YOUR INFORMATION FROM. Why would you want to do that?

So, what you have to do is reveal absolutely nothing about how much you know, or where you got it.

This is what you can do:

She gives you a carefully prepared package of information, designed to test how much you know, and says something like, “That’s everything. You wanted the truth, well there it is. There’s nothing more”.

You respond: “Really? That’s your final story? Hmmm. Well, that’s disappointing, but I’m not going to push you on it”.

Her: “Well what else do you think there is?”

You: “I’m not saying anything. I’m here to give you the chance to tell the complete truth.”

Her: “So why don’t you think this isn’t everything?”

You: “I’m not saying I do, I’m not saying I don’t. If that’s your version of the complete truth, so be it. I’m not here to play games. This was your opportunity to come clean. If that’s what you want to say is the complete truth, so be it.”

Her: “Well what else do you want to know? What do you think I’ve left out?”

She is never, ever going to tell you anything like the complete truth. She can’t. The real truth means she has to admit that – as another poster said – she has been just like Daddy and broken up the family by having sex outside the marriage. Has she ever come close to doing that? No, of course not, she grew up with her mom, her, and her sister despising her Dad for having a physical affair. How can she suddenly say she has done the same thing? I know you would like something approaching honesty, but there’s no way you are going to get it.

Now, she may try another tactic. If she starts getting aggressive and badgering you, with crap like, “I know you read my phone!”, “I know you’ve been stealing my email!”, “I know you’ve had the house bugged!”, “I know you’ve been following me around and spying on me!”, DO NOT LET YOURSELF BE PROVOKED INTO RESPONDING. If you do, she will be playing you like a violin.

Years ago, I read a book about self-assertiveness, and there is a very simple technique that can be used if someone is trying to pressure you into discussing something or providing an answer when you don’t want to. It is called “The broken record”, and it consists of giving exactly the same blocking answer, over and over again, until the questioner gives up. It works this way:

Her: I’ll be damned if I’m going to be spied on. How dare you! What have you been doing?

You: I’m not prepared to discuss it.

Her: What kind of stupid answer is that? I know you’ve been checking my phone.

You: I’m not prepared to discuss it.

Her: So what are we here for?

You: We’re here for you to give your account of the complete truth.

Her: So how do you know I haven’t?

You: I’m not prepared to discuss it.

Her: You’ve had someone watching me at lunchtime.

You: I’m not prepared to discuss it.

And so on.

Seriously, Digi, she has already told you that she wants to get information out of you, not give it to you. She has been prepared to make denials so ridiculous that they even made that other marriage counsellor giggle, but she didn’t care, because what she has been playing is a game of information management. What has annoyed her is that you have suddenly got one up on her and the OM, and she wants to know what you know and how you know it. TELL HER NOTHING ON THAT SCORE!

This session is for her to talk, not you. She is going to be probing you every second of that session, trickle-truthing, goading, testing to see if you know more…It’s a game to her, and she has been playing it for years now.

Digi, you are a good and decent guy. You may want to be open, honest, and nice, but your WW doesn’t. She hasn’t been any of those things for years, and she is perfectly comfortable with that. Why would she suddenly change now?

You have information she wants, and she intends to get it.

Be prepared!

[This message edited by M1965 at 3:37 PM, April 25th (Tuesday)]

I just don't see ANYTHING beneficial coming from attending a MC session. The only possibility is that you get emotional and wind up saying something you shouldn't.

From your wife's actions it is apparent that she is not remorseful in any way. I don't hear from you that this marriage is going to be saved - if, for no other reason, she has refused to offer ANY information to you. I would be highly doubtful that - no matter what you say - she will be any more forthcoming with information that incriminates her.

Honestly, I see a huge mistake looming.

As Bigger states, there is only two paths out of infidelity: reconciliation or divorce. Your wife has made it clear that reconciliation is not on the table. As a result, you owe her absolutely nothing.

This marital counseling session included.

She is now indirectly accusing me of violating civil and criminal law for the phone pictures event yesterday.

That's interesting. You said she may have been on the phone to Judge Judas last night. Sounds like the judge is panicking. However, do not say anything more about the phone pictures until you have spoken to your lawyer and you know the full legal position. If your WW can shaft you and play the wronged victim, she will.

She is bound to bring the pictures up, but remember the 'Broken Record":

I am not here to discuss that.

I am not here to discuss that.

I am not here to discuss that.

Practice it, recite it, use it as your shield.

Don't even worry about what questions to ask tomorrow. Just ask probing questions as she is telling the "story" to clarify. Take copious notes.

Honestly it's likely going to be a damn waste of time. You're better off just filing and then seeing if that changes her behavior.

It's time to tell her mom that she's still actually in the affair, so that if you mom wants a marriage to stay in tact you're not the one she needs to be talking to. You are just the dude with the reasonable stance of "I refuse to be the third wheel after my wife and her boyfriend in this relationship".