SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I would take a grain of salt with anything tells you about how or when or where. Stick with the facts.

Typically tattoos and piercings in an affair are physical symbols of "forever love" for the affair partner. It is not common, but it does happen. Your wife would by no means be the first. Kind of like a permanent wedding ring. "I always will think of you when I see my breasts.". That type of thing.

Thanks Nothisfriend, deliberateness is a word...you're good, we can make anything into a word if necessary lol. But yeah that's the way my brain works, I consider my options and strategy carefully and try to work to the best outcome that I can achieve...I'm not a big fan of regret and while sometimes that's inevitable it still pays to try and be deliberate in big decisions that impact so many people's lives.

Yeah WK55 I agree, I'm thinking of it along those terms as well. Kind of a F my husband n this is for you OM and us and our A kind of thing. Plus what 35 yr old wife with sagging you know what's from childbirth, which is totally natural and fine btw, decides hey I get these pierced? Lmao I mean wtf right? Yeah it's symbolic of the fact that the A is still hanging around in her life in some way...and that's the very least it means.

Thanks needfriendshere...I do actually feel a lot more empowered since I came here...and I feel taking and applying more of the advice I'm getting here will just build me up even more. I know that the intimacy we had the other night wasn't a good thing and wasn't part of the 180, it was a moment of weakness on my part...but in no way do I think it means something or is going to make anything better. I also hear the STD concerns. I'm concerned about that as well so testing and avoiding any sexual contact with WW with be my focus going forward. It was hard because of course some part of me still yearns for that connection with my WW, and I am still a man as well and I have needs and desires that I WONT go outside my marriage to get regardless of what's going on right now...bottom line is I guess I'll have to seek "alone time for me" lol. No shame in that I guess. It's funny because I'm no slouch by any standards, I stay in shape take care of myself in general, I mean not to sound arrogant but I'm a good looking guy with a great job good morals ect...I've had plenty of opportunities to have an A, you know when they arise, but I just would always think NO, I don't want that, I wouldn't do that to my wife and kids and I couldn't live with myself if I ever broke that vow and crossed that line. Good guys finish last though right? Lol. Oh well, I'm good with my decisions and I'm right with God and my choices. I take comfort in that

I'm glad you have made it through the vacation, especially for the kids.

Once home I believe taking the steps we have all outlined here to take control of the outcome for yourself is the best path forward to get you out of this infidelity.

Perhaps when confronted with losing you and the family structure she will realize what she has given away and beg for forgiveness and R.

If not, then do you really want to be with someone who has betrayed you so and whose heart still lies elsewhere?

Good luck.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 10:11 AM, June 23rd (Friday)]

xX....I'm really sorry you had to go through the piercing thing from her. That just plain hurts (for you...I fail to care about her).

k9

Good guys finish last though right

As much as I try to avoid buying into that my life experience tells me it is the rule and not the exception.

xXT

I want to try to frame how I would suggest you move on in a good way. Basically, you already have all the info you need, but maybe the way I put it forward might clarify what, when and why.

First: All your WW actions and reactions are per script. Sadly, most of your responses are too…

I’m a former cop and in training we were taught to break expected patterns. Go on YouTube and search for videos of LEO talking down jumpers. There is one where the cop suddenly start asking the guy about football. Half a minute later the guy is off the ledge and being led away by the LEO. By changing from the expected to the unexpected the LEO managed to divert the expected process and thereby the thought-pattern of the jumper… I think we need to do the same when dealing with infidelity.

It’s to be expected that discovery brings action, and that action calls for reaction and that reaction calls for reaction… It goes on and on. Like your wife tries to justify her affair by claiming the marriage was bad. She justifies the marriage was bad by listing your actions. She rationalizes that by separating (partially) it emphasizes how bad the marriage was, and therefore mitigating her reasons for having an affair.

It’s another thing I learned in the cops: It’s a rare case – an extremely rare case – when someone acknowledges that what they did was wrong and bad, no excuses. A rapist would insist the victim wanted it or led him on. A burglar would insist that since people should be insured there really wasn’t any real victim. The assailant would insist the victim had to be beat because he was asking for it. The drunk driver wasn’t really that drunk, only tired, and the reason he had to drive drunk important… So, your wife might realize infidelity is wrong, but she’s still justifying her actions via the bad marriage…

I can also share that the occasional guy that raised his hand and acknowledged his total and unexcused responsibility for something wrong… that was the type of guy I would only arrest once.

Let’s say she isn’t corrected. Let’s say you two make it to decent reconciliation and that 2 years from now you have a better marriage than pre-infidelity… You do NOT want her to ever think “Thank God for the affair. It woke xXT. and now he’s such a good husband!”

OK – So how to proceed:

I think you need to think long and hard about what you fear the most.

Imagine six months from now: What would be the absolute worst situation?

Or 12 months, 18 months, 3 years?

Friend – If the answer isn’t that the worst situation at those dates would be to be STILL in infidelity… then there isn’t much we can do for you…

If you do the common mistake and state that the worst possible outcome at those dates would be to have lost your wife. Or if you state that the worst possible outcome would be to not have your kids 24/7 then your solution is simple:

Accept that your wife has a lover.

It’s not as daft as it sounds. Lots of couples live in that pattern. You turn a blind eye and try to convince yourself that “overtime” on Thursday night is really overtime. You arrange a pattern so she showers after being with OM and is appropriately discreet.

If that doesn’t sound good, then really think what would be the worst outcome.

I say that for nearly all of us the worst outcome of the present situation – 6, 12 or 36 months from now – would be to STILL BE IN INFIDELITY!!!

Of all the things in the Universe I could fear as a BS the absolute worst to me would be to have a wife that decides to remain in infidelity.

OK – If you are still with me then we next look at what WE can control.

Simple fact is that IF your wife wants to be in infidelity then there really isn’t anything you can do about it.

Except to refuse to remain in infidelity…

There are two ways to get out of infidelity. One is if the affair ends and both parties really commit to the marriage. The other is to end the marriage.

Both paths take time. Both are a gradual process and require work and effort. Of the two you can only control ending the marriage. The other is dependent on both your commitment. A commitment you don’t really have right now from her.

Imagine marriage like you two being constrained by a rubber band. The band gives you some space to go on your own, but if you go too far the rubber contains you and pulls you back towards your wife. The only way to move is if you both gradually move in the same direction. Sometimes that’s because you both willingly head that way. Sometimes it’s because one of you goes there and pulls the other along.

Right now, your wife has pulled you into infidelity. I suggest you be willing to apply the pressure that might pull her out, but it might also snap the band. It’s your call how fast, how much pressure you apply. It’s her decision how fast she stands in her tracks or how fast she decides to move with you.

I think it’s a very powerful moment when a man can tell his cheating wife:

“Wife. I love you and would do A LOT to save this marriage. I think that if we both committed fully to it we could possibly even survive this infidelity. However, I have had an epiphany: I realized that losing you isn’t the worst thing that can happen. In fact – the moment you decided to have an affair is the moment the marriage we had died and I lost you. What I have realized is that what you offer me now – sharing you with another man – is IMMENSELY WORSE than losing you for good.

I’m not going to stand in the way of your happiness or freedom. You are totally free to date anyone, have sex with anyone, spend time with anyone. You can have time off for yourself or whatever you need. But not as my wife.

Marriage is a commitment. There are definitely things we could improve in how our marriage was, but that can’t be done while there isn’t 100% commitment. You have decided to go outside the marriage and are not committed to us. That’s totally your prerogative and your choice. Just like it is my prerogative to refuse to share you.

Therefore – unless and until you clearly commit to the marriage and accept some reasonable and necessary conditions to assure me the infidelity is over – I am simply assuming you have decided to choose infidelity over me.

That’s why I am focusing on moving onwards with my life out of infidelity without you. You can join me but the longer it takes for you to decide and the further along I go the less likely am I to want you along. It’s a process and will take time but for now I’m going slow preparing our family for the death of this marriage.”

I told you her behavior is by script. At the moment, she thinks she has control. She cheated, you are now trying to woo her back and she’s sort of negotiating you back. That little speech I gave you all of a sudden turns things round. It’s like a car-salesman chasing you after you told him the price was too high and started walking out…

I can also tell you her responses:

“I had the affair because you were mentally absent”

“I had the affair because you lost interest”

“Our marriage was dying because of financial problems”

And so on and so on. Always a good reason for the affair. Always blame on others.

Your response to each and every sentence of blame:

“I am sorry you feel that way. I don’t agree with that statement and if we were both committed to the marriage then this is something we would need to deal with in MC. But since you are committed to the infidelity it’s a moot point and no profit for either of us to discuss that issue”

And then you move on. You go make a cup of coffee or watch a game. You do NOT enter arguments or discussions.

She will start talking about divorce. Your response: “I am too emotionally attached to our marriage to discuss divorce. There are laws and regulations controlling how it goes and we will hopefully find an acceptable solution. I am putting it all in the hands of my attorney”.

And then you move on. You go make a cup of coffee or watch a game. You do NOT enter arguments or discussions.

You simply stop confrontations. You do a hard 180 and act as if you are content with your decision.

IMHO you don’t have to file ASAP. Start getting your ducks in a row. Start gathering documents, financial overview and all that. Her reaction in the first 2 weeks will guide you on to file or reconcile.

I also suggest you be very open about your decision. IMHO each and every stakeholder in a marriage is entitled to know what’s going on. You simply tell people “My marriage is on the rocks because WW is having an affair with OM (and name him). I would appreciate any input you could have on WW to make her realize what she’s risking, but I am more content with divorce than remaining a cuckold”.

Remember how I said LEO’s are trained to break expected pattern? The pattern here is the one you are in: Where she dictates how you guys might create a new quasi-marriage. Follow my advice and suddenly you are no longer ashamed, afraid or chasing her. Suddenly, she sees you as moving on. The only issue now is how long it is before she feels the pull of the rubber-band and how long she stands firm. With time, YOU will get out of infidelity, and I would guess that you have something like a 70-80% chance of pulling her along with you. To me – THAT would be immensely better than wondering if she’s still seeing OM.

The reasonable demands?

Total accountable NC, even if that requires changing jobs.

Accountability while trust is rebuilt.

Total honesty and truth.

Commitment to IC

Commitment to MC.

Damn Bigger - trying hard not to gush here - but every post you make is better than the last. Your analogies are spot on. I think you should write a book.

Xxtrying - I can only say I wish I had Bigger's advice when I JFO. I wish someone shared this kind of wisdom. Read his post - then read it again...

Thanks Stevesn, I agree. Good point. And thanks k9, that is some crazy shit right? Lol. Thanks for being in my corner and the good wishes. Means a lot

Great post Bigger! I'm going to be reading that one over and over again for sure. Some real gems in there my friend. I'm with you and you make total sense. Thank you!

Awesome. Bigger should be renamed Biggest.

Going back home today, vacation is over sadly. I definitely enjoyed the break from the crap I've been going through and all of your posts helped me out immensely.

It's strange, I was doing some thinking last night about my situation and I'm really glad I have some great support and strategies coming from you all because my WW is a real snake...I've come to that realization with your help. She's a lot of other things too but I'll just say snake for now cuz the other names aren't appropriate. Lol

We had some good times together on the vaca obviously, laughing and enjoying our time with the kids and even each other. She says words like honey and baby to me like she always has, talks about things we need to do for the big whole family vacation coming up at the end of August, talks about things in the future (kids and other things) just like everything is ok and we are on our road to R, talked about going to my i laws on Sunday to get in the pool and spend time with the family ect. All of these things that are obviously comforting to me in some way right...but then I think about how she seems to have no remorse, all of the things she's done and hasn't done, the fact that on Fathers Day I got a card from my 6 yr old that his school had him make for all the Fathers and I also got a card from my niece that her parents bought for her to give to me...but nothing from my sons that my WW GOT? That's so Fd up in my mind. She said it was my day, and we could do whatever I wanted. I wanted to spend the day with the kids and have fun with my family. We did that, which was awesome, went out to dinner n she paid...and that was all great, I don't want to sound ungrateful...but just a simple card from my sons that my WW bought n they signed? She couldn't even do that. What kind of person does this? Not to mention NO ACKNOWLEDGEMENT whatsoever of our wedding anniversary??? it's things like this that completely overshadow any good things that happened n make me see the reality of my situation. So sad

It is really painful for me to read your journey. It seems like you are in a constant state of limbo. I'm the type of person who couldn't do that. I would have to push for all information and what is presently going on. I don't know how you do it but I wish you well in getting out of infidelity.

What is the present situation?

Are you two living together? Sharing a bed?

Do you have a reasonable believe that the actual physical affair is over?

I think there are more posts above about the current situation Bigger but I'll give ya a quick rundown. We are currently living together. We HAD an arrangement a few weeks after D-day where I was sleeping at a co-workers house Mon-Thur but I'd come home in the mornings after she's gone to work and I'd come home after work around 4-5pm, take care of my sons and put them bed. That way they wouldn't know I was gone. Then once my WW would come home sometimes at 7, or 8, or 9 or 10 or 11 from work I would go stay at my coworkers to give her time to herself, time to work on her issues, and time for us to "miss each other." As far as I could see she wasn't doing any of that shit though. Her mood around me worsened, moved to basically being pissed anytime I was around her. Wouldn't talk to me or initiate conversation at all. When she came home to "work on her issues" she just relax and watch tv or drink beer n do same. So last MC session, after joining this site and before we went on vacation, I said I'm no longer going to leave my house and if she needs to go somewhere then so be it, but I'm done staying somewhere else. Then I stayed at home that entire week and we left for vacation that Friday. Just got home yesterday and that's where we are now.

We do share the same bed. That hasn't changed at all though since D-day. When I was home on Friday, Sat, n Sun nights I was sleeping in the same bed with her. Though you could feel the cold chill in the air as when I'd come to bed she'd roll over and go to sleep like clockwork. She's also get up in the morning and make her side of the bed and not mine lol. Crazy S right? But telling I'm sure. Things have warmed up a little between us during the vacation, talking more, no more cold shoulder ect but the kids were around ya know. Once it was time to sleep though it was goodnight n roll over.

Do I have reasonable proof that the PA is over? Huh, that's a good question. I guess I'd have to say no because I have. I proof one way or another. Of course I didn't have "proof" of a PA during the confront phase either...I had phone records, saw a txt from OM that came up on her phone and confronted with that. It was assumed that PA occurred because I just know it did. I'm not a details guy that needed to know every single thing that happened. I know she Fd him and that's enough for me. Prying any details would just send her into minimization for sure and result in endless interrogations that are pointless in my mind. Haven't helped in the past that's for sure.

I mean she works at the same company with OM. She's saying in MC when asked about how she deals with seeing AP everyday by MC that they are in different departments on different areas of the building so it's not s problem. That it's not hard. But left it at that. I've asked at least once or twice since d-day is the affair really over? This isn't still going on ect? She's answered yes it's over and no it's not still going on. But wouldn't she still say that either way? You see the contradictions I'm dealing with though? Everybody in here says 100% it's still going on. Her apparent anger towards me, her actions ect are signs of that being the case ect. I obviously tend to agree. So that's where I am present day. If it is still going on I'm not going to make it easier for these bastards to run around by not being home. That's done. I'm home to stay. I guess I'm in intel gathering mode at this point. I'm also contacting an attorney this week to understand my rights, what to do and not to do legally, and get a better picture of what D would look like for me and my sons.

Part of what makes this difficult is that my WW said on MC that she has no hope for gaining my trust back. She says we've been through so many things, other As, in the past that she can't get it back. When the MC asked if instead of me going somewhere to stay, when she wants her alone time, that my WW would go to her friends house or something like that my WW said oh no "he (I) would not allow that or be ok with that." And of course I wouldn't because in my mind it's her going to be with OM, or the possibility that she could be seeing or contacting OM would be a certainty. Now do I recognize that some of that comes from my own insecurities, fears of abandonment, and my general issues and baggage? Abso-fing-lutely. I'm not blind to my own issues at all. But does that mean my worries are wrong? I think most in here would say no not at all. So it's like investigating, asking her about her phone, where she's going, what she's doing, why she's at work so late ect are all going to be played back to me by her as "see, he's never going to trust me." So if I am wrong and the A really is over I end up coming off as an overbearing asshole and blow up any chance of us building trust back up between us. If I pull back, don't question and check up on every little thing, and the A is still going on then she's Fing cake eating and we are never really moving towards real solid R. So you see? Kinda tough right lol. I mean it's not funny but as a police I've seen so much Fd up stuff, people with their heads blown off, junkies dead in an alley that I save and bring back to life only to see them go to buy the same exact shit that almost killed them 2 hours later, that I have to laugh and have a sense of humor about the terrible things in life...it's the only way to stay sane. It's my coping mechanism.

So I mean that's where I sit TODAY. Who knows about tomorrow. It's tricky it really is. My mode right now is to sit back and observe. I'm still engaging when engaged, still being normal and loving with my sons and our family, I'm doing normal things that need to be done but not trying to be super husband anymore, I'm just living my life and keeping an eye on shit. But at least I'm not blind anymore, I'm not sitting here with a false sense of hope. That's been shattered by what I've found here, and that's for the best imo. I'm being realistic now, preparing for the worst but hoping for the best. Taking the few steps I think are appropriate at this time, contacting lawyer ect n just trying to live as close to a normal life as possible. As normal as I can expect right now at this point in time anyway.

The truth is always you can handle it anyway you want. But it seems all you have done is gotten yourself back to zero where you are back in your own home but still just being the nice guy that you are...HOPING that your marriage will return to what it once was or at least was in your mind.

As many have stated here before the most successful BSs here seem to be the ones that take control and lay down their requirements for R. Right now she is in control, acting not remorseful but actually like you are the one who betrayed.

It's good that you are going to see the lawyer but you can start taking control now if you want. You can say:

"I believe you are still having this affair therefore I am moving forward with steps toward D to get myself out of your infidelities". Now if she really wants to be with OM or just doesn't want to be with you anymore she may just say OK, Do What You Have To Do. But if she does say that, would you really want to be with someone that wouldn't fight for you and your marriage anyway? You have your answer then.

Or maybe she wakes up and realizes what she has done to her marriage and begs you to reconsider. That's when you tell her what it will take for you agree to attempt R. I and others put a list a few pages back. You should use it to create your own list you present to her. Those are the conditions you need to attempt to fix your marriage. You should accept nothing less.

And number one is she quit her job and never see the OM ever again. If she's truly remorseful she will want to do that as much for her as for you.

But of course she doesn't appear remorseful at all. That's why MC is pretty much a waste of time at this point. Until she gets into IC and works thru her own issues (another requirement to attempt R) therapy about what's wrong in the marriage will be money pretty much thrown out the window.

So you really don't have to sit there in this state of limbo. If you want threads to read here of men and women, all BSs, that took control and decided what they wanted and got themselves out of infidelity, just ask and I'm sure you can be pointed to them again.

Read the 180 again from the healing library and then start telling her what you need and are going to do.

You're strong. You got this.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 8:47 AM, June 25th (Sunday)]

I sent you a PM with a link to an example thread.

why are you foxused on an anniversary you share with someone who disrespects you and you may not be with much longer ?

If anything, she didn't deserve to go on the vacation and your focus should have been solely on the kids and your niece and carving out time for you.

You are trying to triangulate here by having a marriage and doing a 180 at the same time, having a good time while resenting her ongoing actions, focusing on why you get nothing from her for the anniversary while she continues to shit all over your marriage.

Here is my guess. You cite that you have 'abandonship' problems. That is where you are losing this fight. You have become codependent and need to solve this while at the same time practicing a hard 180 and finding ways to protect your kids, assets and self esteem. All of this can be accomplished at once but you have to commit to it. We can't do it for you.

Bigger hit the nail on the head as has Farside.

Divorce has to be a real option. Otherwise, you don't have a sword in this fight

Just read what Bigger wrote. So true!