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If she has done all of the work OP says she has done,and she is now a safe partner, then I would say she is telling the truth.

Which, even if true, leaves me still wondering, so what. Pain from infidelity is pain, no matter the reason or ever no matter the proven validity of some random facts. Decide what is the core basis for feeling like D may be the best outcome, then go with that.

Why the focus on this one question. Assume she is lying, then what? Assume she is telling the truth, then what? Decide if you can or cannot live with what you know and what you think you don't know and then move in the direction that gets you out of the pain cycle.

I will put this part out there.

Women enjoy affair sex. It is secret, they are in control, and they are being desired. Plus it has a start and end they control, so they might even be up for things they usually aren't.

Sorry, ladies don't know their own sex drives or bodies. Usually if a woman really wants an O, she will have a glass of wine or 2 so she stops thinking about domestic work, work stress, or other things they have to do that day/week. It is the female multitasking brain. It effects so much with their physiology it is astounding. I have had 3 female friends told they were infertile, 2 were accepted to start adopting, 1 did adopt a child, then bang, they got pregnant. It was all about relaxing and not stressing about things. Even the doctors couldn't believe it. Hell, my wife had a hard time getting pregnant until she would hear we were going to get fertility drug shots in a week or 2, then she would get pregnant. She was just stressed.

Now, to your wife. Lets go with the worst case scenario: She enjoyed the sex and did things with him she won't do with you. She knew it would be one time and she can choose when if ever to try those things again and doesn't want to talk to you about it. Then during the sex she commented how you are not as big as this stud. She had orgasms to the moon. She then came back to be caught and said she didn't enjoy it because it keeps from hurting you more.

If you catch her in that lie, what good would that do you?

Is that going to be the nail in the coffin so to speak?

BSR - Even said once while being super honest, the AP did some things her BH can't seem to do. I bet it was the secrecy and naughtiness.

Plus being pursued and pursuing while having the safety at home allows people to go out on the tight rope with a net.

So lets say, your WW enjoyed sex with another man.

What has she given up for you? Sorry ladies, but guys see love like this. You share or give up things for the one you love. Time, money, sexual opportunity, ...

Your wife is in the negative in this bank. She will be for the rest of her life. My wife knows this, but I am less years out than you. She recently tried to pull some similar crap to what it sounds like your WW is.

Twice a year flipping the F out is allowed in my book. Anniversary and Affair-Birthday. If you are close to that date and drinking, it will be in your head. Then you will flip out like I did(I was drunk, but usually can hold it in and swallow the annual sandwich). My wife's friend asked a stupid question which triggered me.

My wife this time said, "You need to see someone because you still are mad."

I tilted my head, looked her in the eye and said I will forever be mad at her behavior back then. That I can't understand how she isn't still mad at her behavior. That leaving today is still my option. That when our kids leave, I might just divorce her anyways because she is going to need to accept me being pissed some times. Hell, she gets to be bitchy 4 days a month and I just roll with it, twice a year due to betrayal is incredibly reasonable.

My wife still needs to go to counseling herself due to her self esteem issues, but she has put in stronger boundaries in the last year. She wants to skip counseling for that self image part for a couple years because life has been really busy while we set ourselves up for retirement by 60 (I'm not even 40 yet). I do tell her she will have a lot to deal with when the kids who rely on us stop being a reason to stay. That has happened to 2 of my friends late last year.

I'm sorry, but every WW on here who wants to understand just think about this. What were you like right after Dday when you BH was about ready to take action? When he was screaming at you and calling you things to vent his rage?

I bet you still don't act the same way. That is exhausting. Just when your BH floods or triggers, do the same things. Seduce him, talk about how much he has done, and how grateful you are he didn't have an RA or leave.

I think Gutpunch is talking about how that isn't how his WW acts. She probably is tired of trying to recover the man she married. She also is probably starting to resent that she can never get beyond her greatest betrayal. Every cheater wants to "Get over" things one day. They still never understand the betrayed's point of view. It kind of makes me wonder if Madhatters have an easier time recovering because both sides have a reason to be angry and forgive. I would ask HO as this recently happened but it seems callous.

Sorry this was a giant ramble. I was going to rewrite it, but it has some good points I think.

GutPunch - Why or what has your WW said about you venting twice annually? Is it really unexpected? Has she been to some counseling to understand why she refuses to understand your feelings?

Marriage counseling in my belief/experience is just about getting a couple to communicate. I have met very few who have actual tools to fix a marriage. So, what aren't you 2 communicating about? Is it your feelings or her lack of empathy from your writing? Are you expecting to suddenly get over these emotions one day?

Sorry, ladies don't know their own sex drives or bodies. Usually if a woman really wants an O, she will have a glass of wine or 2 so she stops thinking about domestic work, work stress, or other things they have to do that day/week. It is the female multitasking brain. It effects so much with their physiology it is astounding. I have had 3 female friends told they were infertile, 2 were accepted to start adopting, 1 did adopt a child, then bang, they got pregnant. It was all about relaxing and not stressing about things. Even the doctors couldn't believe it. Hell, my wife had a hard time getting pregnant until she would hear we were going to get fertility drug shots in a week or 2, then she would get pregnant. She was just stressed.

What . . . what is happening here?

Sorry, ladies don't know their own sex drives or bodies. Usually if a woman really wants an O, she will have a glass of wine or 2 so she stops thinking about domestic work, work stress, or other things they have to do that day/week.

I am sorry, doinbetter, I know you *probably* mean well, but I do know my own sex drive and body. If I drink wine, it means there is no chance in hell I will climax. Think about what whisky does to men ;-)

Women enjoy affair sex. It is secret, they are in control, and they are being desired. Plus it has a start and end they control, so they might even be up for things they usually aren't.

I think that's a falsehood. I certainly think some women do, but just like any other thing, it doesn't fit all situations.

I think what we often have is a lot of men who project what it would be for them. And, I do not think that's an indication of what it actually was.

Twice a year flipping the F out is allowed in my book. Anniversary and Affair-Birthday. If you are close to that date and drinking, it will be in your head.

I also think that maybe instead of letting it build, talk about what you are thinking and feeling. It's fine and acceptable to have a flip out like Doin Better is saying, but generally speaking so many men do not want to talk about it. I think that creates a cancer that just does nothing but spread.

I am not a man, and maybe I am wrong. But, I see it over and over on this site, and I certainly experienced it with my husband.

In fact, he said we didn't have to talk about it any more, when I would bring it up at times he would bristle because he "wanted us to get past this". At the same time, he's having an affair, or as in the case of more BH's - maybe they are just fantasizing about divorce.

Keep it real. If these are your thoughts, and she is truly remorseful, then she will be able to listen without getting defensive. She will be able to take it in and ask questions, try and find ways to connect it better. You would also be surprised what it does to get things you think off your chest.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:05 PM, November 11th (Wednesday)]

she still adamantly sticks to her story that it was horrible from start to finish.

I bring this up to the group is to see if it's within reason that she could be telling the truth.

Yes. And this could be why...

my fWWs mother is an abusive monster that would scream at her that she was a whole, slut, accuse her of horrible things, physically attack her, her brothers and father. And her father allowed it, covered it up to the police, pastor, teachers and even now takes the mothers side. So, my fWW has not spoken to either of them since DAY.

I will share this with you. It is entirely possible she is telling the truth,because I have put myself in that situation (although never during my marriage), several times when I was younger.

Your wife's mother sounds just like mine. She was horrible. At least, to me. She adored my siblings. She hated me. I grew up unloved. My father was never there,and when he was it was to use me to do something he needed done, then he would disappear for several months. I was unloved,and unprotected.

I looked for attention and validation, in all the wrong places. With the wrong men. I was often the aggressor. But once sex started I just wanted it to be over with. But I wouldn't stop him. Because I would have felt bad for him. After all, I started it. So I would lay there,acting my part dying inside. And yes, I would spend the night,or the next day with him. After all,he did nothing wrong. He didn't deserve the rejection. It was me. I didn't matter, so I would continue to play my part.

Make sense? Probably not. It was extremely unhealthy. I was unhealthy.

It took me years to realize my worth.

But,after growing up, from the time I could walk,being told I was horrible, I believed it. Its possible your wife felt the same. Being loved by a good man is amazing. But unless she had intense therapy, she didn't love herself. So she still craved that validation. Which, is why many women cheat. And, if she says the sex was horrible and traumatic, its possible she is telling you the truth. Could she be lying? Yes. Cheaters lie. But you said she has done the work. She maintains the sex was horrible. If you believe she has done the work,I think you can believe her on this.

This doesn't excuse anything. She should never have gotten herself on that situation. None of what I've said excuses any of her actions. But you asked if it was possible for her to be telling you the truth..that the sex was traumatic..and why would she spend the next day with him..and I've attempted to answer those questions.

[This message edited by HellFire at 4:24 PM, November 11th (Wednesday)]

Sorry, ladies don't know their own sex drives or bodies. Usually if a woman really wants an O, she will have a glass of wine or 2 so she stops thinking about domestic work, work stress, or other things they have to do that day/week. It is the female multitasking brain. It effects so much with their physiology it is astounding.

ROFLMAO. I'm going to tell this to my wife, this evening. In a deep, masculine, "man-splaining" voice. My anticipation is that it will really impress her.

BSR - Even said once while being super honest, the AP did some things her BH can't seem to do. I bet it was the secrecy and naughtiness.

I NEVER EVER SAID THAT, and I can't describe my white hot fury that you would casually throw out such a bald faced lie.

Hellfire, thank you for your post. I’m so sorry for the pain you have experienced.

I've been in this site for a long time. I read long before I signed up. And,today,while writing that post, I had an epiphany. And understanding. When I wrote that that is why many women cheat, I suddenly got it. We read a lot,about a WS getting it after dday. Not so much about a BS really understanding what leads a person to cheat. The deeper reasons. The Foo etc. And today, I GET IT.

In no way am I making one single excuse for cheating, so don't misunderstand. But I feel I have grown a little today.

Sorry for the slight thread jack, OP.

Hellfire- this post you made is very true. Nothing excuses cheating by any means. But what you describe does describe a lot of my life and my experiences in my youth as well. It made me think a little harder too. Thank you.

How did you find out?

Are they still in contact?

It's not unusual to stay for the kids and then re evaluate after they leave.

There is no shame in being the victim of infidelity. You are 100% a victim of a massive life changing betrayal - and not responsible.

Your wife didn't have a ONS because of a difficult childhood.

Her decision to cheat with the X had nothing to do with you and she would have cheated regardless of who she was married to.

Unfortunately, after 8 years, you can't forgive what you don't know (or in your case, if you think you don't know everything).

You also can't trust someone that hasn't identified why they cheated and fixed themselves.

Cheaters typically minimize what they did so it's likely you don't know everything (especially what she intended, or was thinking, or used a condom).

1 - Was the X married? If he's still married, expose to his wife.

2 - Did she provide you with a copy/summary of all the texts/calls exchanged over 1 month prior to the trip?

3 - To encourage a full confession and to stop minimizing, have her write up a timeline detailing all contact/communication with the OM starting a month prior to the trip and continuing to present day.

And then subject her (and the timeline) to a polygraph test.

I am trying to stay neutral. This is not my life, it’s yours but.....you are on this forum to get permission to leave your wife months from now. Do you see any parallels in this? I do. It means that you are taking her reality away as she did yours. This is a long slow burn that might burn the forest down. Why don’t you tell HER all of this. If you are going to leave then be honest with her. Revenge usually means neither of you win. And what makes everyone think it’s ok with older kids when their parents divorce? I was in my 20s and blindsided. Both parents moved on. I lost my entire nuclear family and was introduced to two complete strangers who married my mother and father. The anger posters bring to this forum is of no help to a family, and that’s what all of us are discussing, a family.

So the reason I bring this up to the group is to see if it's within reason that she could be telling the truth

Sure

I have no idea if it is true, but...sure.

You can be feeling like a prized princess, desperately wanted, right up to the sex, and then you can immediately be turned into a skank, which is not so good a feeling.

Maybe you could feel good about it if you did it again, the lead-in wanting would wash away the post-sex skank from the last go. But maybe it’d just make you a skank twice-over at the end of it. Horrified with yourself. Absolutely possible.

As a guy, I’ve chased women, closed the deal, and then thought, WTF did I do that for? I just disgusted myself. I assume women are capable of similar.

Five pages arguing if the sex was good or bad. Is WW lying

or being honest.

Does not matter how good the sex was.

What does it matter?

This affair was premeditated. WW mislead and kept hidden

that this HS friend was a male friend, ex BF that she had sex

with. That she planned an all day romantic day sightseeing.

Brings the OM to her hotel room after flirting all day with

her OM/exBF. Taking a shower with the OM left sitting on her bed.

She comes out of the bathroom with just wearing a robe

and starts making out. No way she can claim she did not plan

to have sex with the OM. No way did the OM not think he

was not going to have sex with her that day.

What I do know is that many a WW during the affair enjoyed

the sex, after the affair the regret made feel, believe that the

sex was not worth it, not good.

8 years later, OP if you know everything that happened it

is time to divorce your WW or let it go. Forgiving does not

mean forgetting.

There is a difference between remembering and dwelling on

the past.

[This message edited by oldtruck at 8:17 PM, November 11th (Wednesday)]

((Hellfire))

8 years is a long time. You stayed for the kids. Now, with an empty nest in sight, you have an opportunity to get out. Sounds like you are considering this.

Your wife betrayed you, badly. You need to figure out if you want to stay with her. I bet as the empty nest time draws nearer, you will figure it out.

On this issue of enjoying the sex, I can only analyze it from a male perspective but I wonder if the fact that she must have lubricated to some extent means there must have been sexual excitement.

As a man, if I lost that due to feeling terrible about what I was doing, I would lose arousal. Would the same be true of a woman such that lubrication would cease? Could intercourse continue without physical trauma thereafter?

Thanks Hellfire for an incredible story of courage. The problem here is there is so much that does not pass the smell test that is hard for the OP the believe.

OP, why is the sex so important to you? Are there any other indicators that lead you to think this.

Never seen so many people here defend a WS, much less a WS that went to a lot of trouble with elaborate lies and planned way in advance to cheat, and then cheated.

You guys gonna start telling OP that OM's junk was tiny and he had ED too?

Unbelievable.

[This message edited by GoldenR at 4:03 AM, November 12th (Thursday)]

DoinBettr, do not pull information from past topics or other discussions here. Do not bring specific members up for discussion here. Also, refrain from making generalizations.