SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I just wanted to stop in and give you some hugs, and tell you that I hope your MC appt goes well (and the attorney, too).

(((strangeasfiction)))

Sorry for lashing out. Today was obviously an emotional day. I know you're all looking out for me. I need to get some sleep. zzzzzzz

Bunch of questions for you. Feel free to answer none or all.

How have the MC sessions been going? Is your W showing deep remorse? I'm curious to know where you even figured out where to start? Has it helped you?

You mentioned sleep. Are you getting enough sleep? Meds, short term, can make a big, big difference.

Do you feel a bit gun shy about posting here, now. Your situation is so extreme and has brought out so much emotion in everyone, I'm just curious?

How strong do you feel, emotionally, right now? (1 - 10, with 10 being eternal bliss)

How have the MC sessions been going? Is your W showing deep remorse?

They've been going fine. The first one was a real breakthough in terms of starting the communication. The others have been less dramatic but the good news is that we are still talking about substative issues a lot. The MC has experience with similar situations. My WW speaks pretty frankly in the sessions and outside of them. The MC backs her into some corners and forces her to admit that she is holding up the healing and moving on process for both me and the OM. The MC is NOT on "my side". He just sees that my WW is the limiting factor in any kind of progress and so he wants to see if she is addressing these issues herself.

As for deep remorse. . .I'm not so sure. I've barely seen a tear out of her. She has barely seen a tear out of me, so I'm not sure what to make of it. She comes out with comments about how she is a terrible person, apologizes for ruining my life, etc. There may be some sense of regret but to call it remorse might be too generous. She's torn because she is excited to be pregnant and doesn't know how to feel guilt and joy at the same time.

You mentioned sleep. Are you getting enough sleep?

Probably not. But with kids aged 1 and 3 it's not like I was getting tons of sleep before, either. My biggest problem is eating. I thought I ended my weight loss but it has started up again. Thirteen pounds in 2014. I'm a slender guy to begin with. Now I'm 6' tall and 159 pounds...a bit less than my college weight. Someone in my office noticed and asked me what my secret was.

Do you feel a bit gun shy about posting here, now.

Sometimes I feel that way. I know I'm doing this differently than conventional wisdom would dictate. Most might see my actions as weakness but they are coming from a place of principle. The MC even called what we are doing unusual. Part of the "gun shyness" comes from the complexity of the situation. It's hard to place things into a fuller context.

For example - the 180. I've listened to everyone here and read through the Healing Library. For me, in this situation, I don't think it gets me to a happy place. I know the 180 is about ME and not necessarily about saving the marriage. But I know that the 180 will immediately end the marriage. Why? Because in her mind I was already gone. The 180 just confirms for her what she already thought. As for me, I just went through two years where I wasn't as present as I could or should have been. These last 6 weeks have been a renewal for me in terms of my children. I don't know how much I'll be seeing them in the future. This time is so critically important to me and to them. I have to be there for them.

My WW has told me and the MC and the OM that my turnaround is the reason she is so conflicted now. Not because she suddenly feels worse about leaving me. It's because she sees me in a very different light now, especially in my role as a parent. I wouldn't say that the love has been rekindled but she doesn't know how she can remove our kids from me part time. She sees me as being the more responsible and experienced parent for our kids and as the step-dad for the baby. She says that she knows the right thing, the practical thing, the best course of action for the kids is to stay with me and try to reconcile. Yet she has a hard time pulling the trigger because she has such strong feelings for the OM and, ironically, feels so badly for him. True, I'm not about to give him the Citizen of the Year award - trust me. But in his mind he was with this woman who told him she was leaving her husband and let's not wait to start a family. Of course, that's a whole lot of crazy and he was stupid to agree. He played with matches and now he might get burned. So I understand his pain even though I don't at all give him a pass on the responsibility for that pain. Same with my WW. She says she can't just forget her feelings for him. I told her that there is a difference between forgetting and moving on. If she waits until she forgets before making a decision we could be going around in circles for years. She needs to decide - can she move on before she forgets? If she can, then she also has to commit to repairing our relationship. This isn't about me "winning". I read a great tagline on one of the posters here that states, "I'm not the winner. I'm the prize." That's how I'm approaching this.

Those of you who have read through this thread know that one of my unorthodox positions is that if my WW and I make an honest attempt to reconcile then I want the OM to have every opportunity to be the father that he wants to be for his kid. Fatherhood means everything to me. This is rooted in the fact that I lost my father at a young age. For decades I've mourned MY loss. Since becoming a father I've been mourning HIS loss, the ability to have a relationship with his children. Honestly, I could not live with myself if I played a part in denying that relationship to the OM and his child. A much earlier poster mentioned something about the insane idealism in my outlook. The comment was something like, Do you really want the OM and his kid to celebrate Thanksgiving dinner with you around the table with you and your family? At a dinner YOU are paying for? My honest reaction: Wow, wouldn't it be amazing if we could get to that point? My WW agrees with me.

There's so much more to say and so many more gaps in the situation that I need to fill. Including my meeting with the OM last night. I'll get to it if I have the energy and time.

How strong do you feel, emotionally, right now? (1 - 10, with 10 being eternal bliss

I oscillate between about a 2 and a 7. Sometimes moment to moment. I desperately hope we get the chance to save this. I know that a commitment to try to work it out is only the first step and that we have YEARS of hard times and situations ahead of us. If I ever get that commitment then my sense of strength will improve. I would know then that I can roll up my sleeves and tackle all of the issues. Several times a day, though, I'm stricken with doubt and fear. Fear for me and especially fear for our boys. The OM is not equipped to deal with them.

Overall, the situation between my WW and me is quite different than 6 weeks ago, 4 weeks ago, even two weeks ago. I'm more hopeful for my future happiness now than I was earlier. I'm more hopeful for my boys than I was earlier. If this crashes and burns then that's on me. But at least I know I'd done everything I could to keep this family together. Remember, she had more than one foot out the door 6 weeks ago. There's nowhere to go now but onward...I just wish I knew where that was.

Hugs to all. Solo legal consultation next week.

Thanks for your thorough replies, STF. I hope you can eat and sleep tonight.

This isn't about me "winning". I read a great tagline on one of the posters here that states, "I'm not the winner. I'm the prize." That's how I'm approaching this.

Respectfully, no, it isn't, at all. You're going to MC and praying for a chance to stay married to a pregnant cheater that tells you to your face that she loves another man. She's excited to be carrying his baby. If you thought you were the prize, you would NEVER behave like this. You're acting like she and this baby are the prize, and it's too bad that OM comes with that package, but you'll put up with it just to have her remain your wife.

Sorry - but you are lying to yourself if you think in any way you are acting like you are the prize here. You won't even do the 180, which you acknowledge is for YOUR benefit, because if you do she will leave. You won't help yourself for fear of losing her. That is behaving as if you 'win' something if she decided to try to repair the marriage even if she loves another man, and she's telling you that she thinks you're a better father and provider, so she's saying she would be using you if she stays.

Sorry - and I'm sure you'll be upset by these comments, but lying to yourself is NOT helping yourself. You need to see this situation for what it is, and start worrying about YOU and YOUR children.

Your wife called you a 'stepdad' to the lovebaby she and OM intentionally created. That is sickening.

Your wife is behaving in some unbelievably disgusting ways, and you're thrilled to let her do so as long as there is a chance you'll get to remain her husband.

All of this is just about the saddest example of a 'healthy, loving family' that your children could witness. This is what they will learn, and this is what they will expect for themselves. That is the heartbreaking part of this. You may not care about how you're treated, but you should care about them, and this is a horrible lesson about self esteem and accepting less that loving behavior from a spouse. Sad. I honestly think the best thing for them (and you) would be if your wife would be a decent person for 5 minutes and leave this farce of a marriage. If she would say that using you for stability for her 3 children, one of whom isn't yours, isn't right, and that she's killing this mess she's created and going with the man she loves. That is the only hope your kids have of not growing up in a home with a selfish mother and a broken father.

Sorry but it is. This woman could have sex in front of you, and you'd still be asking her what she needs for things could work out between the two of you.

I hope things turn around for your children. I hope your IC can make you see that this isn't good for them.

I'm going to step away from this thread now. SAF, we don't see things the same, at all, and it actually hurts to see someone dive head first into a life of misery, dragging their children along for the ride. Good luck.

Your wife called you a 'stepdad' to the lovebaby she and OM intentionally created. That is sickening

And, if we stay together, entirely accurate.

You need to see this situation for what it is, and start worrying about YOU and YOUR children.

This worry about my children is why I'm trying to keep them from being raised by my WW and the OM.

I'm going to step away from this thread now. SAF, we don't see things the same, at all, and it actually hurts to see someone dive head first into a life of misery, dragging their children along for the ride

Thanks for leaving the burning bag of feces on my front doorstep for me to stomp out as you head for the exit. I'm sorry my life depresses you.

SAF, that last comment you made (burning bag) made me chuckle. Good for you that you can still be sarcastic.

With kids watching you, it is always a danger that you model to them bad behavior, like a willingness to being abused or being a doormat with no ability to enforce boundaries. BUT, your kids are so little so these concerns are not germane and I thus get what you are trying to do.

The 180 for BHs. I also understand your take. If I had done the full 180 right after dday, I would be divorced right now. My wife was not gaslighting me and was willing to do NC. If I had taken the route of 180/detaching, like you said, it would have validated her distorted view of 'emotional distance' within the M and me as a partner. So I made sure to be a empathetic ear for her, be more present, etc., while at the same time. focusing on removing codependence and my defining myself via the M. It was very difficult and is still something I am working on.

That all being said, I still think you need to divorce...at some point. Maybe use your compassion and integrity to make it a soft landing for your little ones.

Thanks for leaving the burning bag of feces on my front doorstep for me to stomp out as you head for the exit.

I'm not your wife. Don't push her actions on me.

[This message edited by painfulpast at 11:47 AM, February 9th (Sunday)]

I'm not your wife. Don't push her actions on me.

You act like her. You both said you'd leave. Yet you both stay. Seems you each lie to me.

Well that escalated quickly. It seems an appropriate moment to state that we can all put up with things that other people wouldn't, and if we truly don't mind things that other people do then what's the problem. Good advice been given but you just aren't far enough out. Trudge through it. Your feelings with change andchange again. Just don't let WW run the show.

Hey strangeasfiction. I think it's very brave of you to keep posting even when emotions get high.

People are going to disagree here, and they're going to trigger sometimes and that brings out the emotion in everybody.

I hear a lot of myself in your posts - especially the bargaining. How can we not when we have little kids in the equation.

We're here for you. Sending hugs and strength. Keep posting - It's hard as hell but we want you to get through this and we just want you to be ok.

Strange, I've a question for you.

Why do you and your WS both assume that she will be the primary custodian of the COM if you divorce?

You have more than enough legal grounds to have primary custody of the COM. And by all accounts you sound like a very nice person who will eventually fall in love with a very nice lady and marry (or form some type of committed relationship). She will love your kids as much as you do and you all will form a family.

You will have a life after this debacle. And it will be good.

So......

Why do you think, and why does your WS assume she will have primary custody?

k9

Why do you and your WS both assume that she will be the primary custodian of the COM if you divorce?

I'm guessing COM means Child of the Other Man? Child Outside Marriage? If so, I'm not sure I get the whole question. If you're referring to my two sons (Children of the Marriage?), then our mutual presumption is that we would have joint custody. I'm in California, a no-fault state. Neither one of us wants a judge to decide custody, anyway. Even if we did, the judge would have little reason to deviate from the default starting position of joint custody.

Let me know if I understood your question correctly.

^^^^ I was wondering this too. This is something to discuss with your attorney.

The comment was something like, Do you really want the OM and his kid to celebrate Thanksgiving dinner with you around the table with you and your family? At a dinner YOU are paying for? My honest reaction: Wow, wouldn't it be amazing if we could get to that point? My WW agrees with me.

So if that's your stance, then why wouldn't you be ok with leaving your wife and the kids spending time with your wife and OM? Those two statements totally contradict each other. You won't leave and have your children have at least one stable, reliable household because you don't want them spending time with the OM, but you hope that in five years you can all do the holidays together like one big happy family?

I'm sure it's hard to hear some of the harsh advice but try to look at it this way. Imagine you're on a train. You found a web site about the train and every person on it is saying "That train is going to crash. We've watched it crash hundreds, even thousands of times! Everyone yelling GET OFF! We know what is going to happen!! Save yourself!" Would you still stay on the train? Would you say "Nah, all of you are wrong? Even though you've all been on the train, mine won't crash". My therapist actually has a name for it. She calls it "Terminal Uniqueness." It's when a million people tell someone that this is what everyone else has done and this is the solution and they say "No, I'm different, that won't work for me." You're wife may be pregnant with another man's child, but she is a carbon copy of every Wayward that does not have remorse. She's cake eating. She is no different than any other cheater.

Stay strong, and please, please, please get yourself into IC so you have someone who can help YOU heal from this betrayal.

I applaud you willingness to put the children first and to consider whether you could have a cordial relationship with OM, including him in family events, etc. It is certainly unconventional and would not work for many people (hence the many suggestions here not to go down that road). It would take a very well-grounded group of people to make this work, however. You might have what it takes, but it seems like your WW has a lot of work to do to get to that place. The OM is a wild card in this equation as well. Do you know him at all? It seems like there is already one strike against him, starting a relationship (and a family!) with a M woman, even if she did tell him she was leaving. Is he really mature enough to handle a life like this? What happens if he marries and has other children?

You have a lot to consider and a long way to go before you make any decisions. I just wanted to give you some support. You sound like a very loving and giving man who got lost in his work for a while. I would not beat yourself up for that too much. I also would not go to the complete opposite end of the scale by giving everything to your family and not leaving something for yourself in the equation. Try to find some balance. Hugs to you.

So if that's your stance, then why wouldn't you be ok with leaving your wife and the kids spending time with your wife and OM? Those two statements totally contradict each other. You won't leave and have your children have at least one stable, reliable household because you don't want them spending time with the OM, but you hope that in five years you can all do the holidays together like one big happy family?

For my own part, I can only see myself being able to live with this arrangement if my WW decides to commit to me. I've explained this to her and the OM. Partly for selfish personal reasons (I don't think I could ever look this guy in the eye if he takes my wife AND half of my kids' lives from me) and partly because I could never stomach the idea of him being a step-dad to my kids. Maybe it's not fair that I can't be as magnanimous in each situation. But my life adjustment should she leave me is magnitudes greater than the OM's life adjustment should she "leave" him. I'm trying to do what's right here but I seriously doubt I could be a part of the big happy family if I'm the odd one out.

Hi, SAF. I want to say I'm sorry for the situation you are in, and I'm glad that you have found SI, even if a lot of the advice you've received here is very harsh. There is no one here who is wishing ill-will on you. Maybe it doesn't seem like it, but the members here truly are just trying to prevent you from making the same mistakes we have made and read about on the thousands of stories here.

You're still so new to this, so we understand how it's hard to see or really believe some of the things that people here are telling you. With time, hopefully you can truly understand that the people here are really just looking out for you. Hopefully with a little more time, you will be able to process what the people here are telling you with an open mind. It's hard. We get it.

Just by your most recent posts though, it's very clear to many of us that your WS currently is not remorseful. She continues to care only about herself, then OM, then you, it seems. She seems so concerned about her own feelings and OM's feelings, what about your feelings? She's fence-sitting and will continue to do so as long as you allow her to. She continues to eat her cake, and as long as you let her, she will keep doing it until you tell her the bakery is closed. Yes, ideally, you want her to reach an epiphany and realize that she needs to change how she's going about things and become the ultimate model remorseful WS begging you for the chance to R. Between SI and the people I know about in real life who have had to deal with infidelity, I have never seen or heard of it happening.

I know you are concerned about your children. My dad cheated on my mom, and I remember that he was a fence-sitter too. I remember my mom trying to "nice" and "love" him back until she had enough and decided she couldn't do that anymore. I am so glad she finally walked away because I was old enough at that time to see the hurt and pain my mom was enduring. My dad has not been a part of my life in quite some time, and that is his decision. However, I'm also grateful to my mom for not keeping my sister and I exposed to a bad father (an opinion based on his actions, or lack thereof), and instead, raising us herself in a home that wasn't broken. We are strong and have respect for her and ourselves because of that. I don't know that I'd feel the same way if I grew up in a household with my dad, OW, and OC involved. I think that would be worse.

With that being said, even your WW has said that OM is not suitable dad material. And seriously, a man meets and has an affair with a married woman -- even if she was planning to get a divorce -- for two months and thinks it's a good idea to start a family with her? You don't even know what the person's favorite color or food or ______ is sometimes after two months.

Right now, she's still concerned that she has "such strong feelings" for OM. What about you, her husband, whom she made vows to and has a family responsibility to?

People here aren't all necessarily telling you to divorce your wife. Many here are advocates of R. But no one here will think it's a good idea to R with a WS who is unremorseful. I think the reason so many people are telling you to seek legal advice and start divorce proceedings, even if you don't end up divorcing, is because we see that your wife is not remorseful at the moment.

If nothing else, I hope you can take the advice of those who have told you to take care of yourself. Again, in case you haven't heard it enough -- eat, drink water, sleep. I hope you can find some peace, even if those moments do come sparingly. Hugs to you and your children.

SAF

But in his mind he was with this woman who told him she was leaving her husband and let's not wait to start a family. Of course, that's a whole lot of crazy and he was stupid to agree. He played with matches and now he might get burned

Crazy is an understatement my friend.

None of their relationship was built on trust, love but the most important aspect "time".

They crammed 5 years into months.

And guess what. You keep assuming that her and the OM will be raising your children if she chooses him.

I highly doubt their relationship would even last a two years. Relationships built on crazy fizzle out rather spectacularly.

No matter what I am glad you are fighting for your family.

Did you punch the OM in his big, green nose? Lol!

He certainly deserves it.

Keep up the good fight. Because your wife seems so messed up she does not even know which direction is up.

Glad that at least one adult in your threesome (not your choice I know) has still retained cognitive thought processes.

Be well and go get some ice cream calories in your body so you do not get too skinny.

HM

Strange:

I've given my opinion in the past. It seems clear that you don't accept my reasoning. That's fine. You are in charge of this expedition, not me.

Given that divorce is not high on your list, I think that what you are doing is the best thing. You are a marvelous man to be able to carry this out and I know you know that it will be hard.

But I get it. It is the least invasive thing for your kids. I'm sure they will quickly accept their half sibling, especially your youngest who now won't have to be the youngest.

I wish you luck and fortitude. My current best guess is that you will get your way and you will patch your marriage up as best you can. I think it will work