SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hey SI

I read this article today, tryg to make sense out of my situation. This part stuck out:

My view point on sexless marriages is that this is just as serious as having a full blown affair in terms of its insult to the partner wanting sex but not getting it....

Marriage is at its heart a sexual relationship.... The basic agreement of being married is to meet each others sexual needs and not to run about getting them met anywhere else. Both affairs and no sex marriages break that agreement.

What do u think?

WH is really actg like a BS based on what i have read here on SI and i guess this is the reason. He feels betrayed, and i feel guilty, which is why i havent put him out

Full article here

http://marriedmansexlife.com/2010/05/the-natural-consequences-of-a-sexless-marriage/

My first instinct is to wave the bullshit flag.

How does your WS feel betrayed? By what?

I can't read the article from work, but here's my take on the excerpt you culled: bullshit. Sounds like the old "it's your fault that your spouse strayed because you didn't satisfy XYZ". There are plenty of men who remain faithful in the absence of sex. Hell, there are men who stand by their partners who have debilitating accidents or diseases. No one forces their spouse to have an affair. If the sex ain't what you are expecting, there are plenty of options without having an affair.

A sexless marriage can be a dealbreaker, absolutely. What it isn't? Is a reason to cheat. As Tred said, there are ways to deal with that situation that don't include betrayal, lying, etc.

Things like talking to your spouse, seeking counseling, divorce...

This will be controversial.

I agree to an extent.

Here's what I mean:

1. We acknowledged on here that withholding affection (touch, love, etc) is a form of emotional abuse. It is a tool in many WS arsenal to make the BS feel small, unloved, unworthy.

By this, I think we are acknowledging that in most traditional marriages your spouse is the only person you can receive romantic affection from.

That caress, that back rub, that kiss, that emotional/physical connection that I believe is human nature to crave/want/need.

2. As the spouse who has a higher sex drive, I absolutely feel the sting of rejection when H rejects sex. Especially when done repeatedly over the long term. I feel lonely, I have a physical emotional need that is not being met.

3. Obviously, no one should be forced to have sex and sexless marriage is NOT an excuse for cheating (although it may be a valid reason to leave the union).

4. But if the person withholding is just too tired, too busy, not in the mood over an extended period of time (months), I think that the partners have an obligation to discuss the issue and try to come up with a mutually acceptable solution.

ie Spouse 1. I am too tired to have sex. If you could take over the kids bath times every other night, I could use that time to regroup and would feel more in the mood when we go to bed together. Spouse 2. I can do that. Spouse 1 then puts good faith effort into being intimate.

5. Obviously physical issues (pregnancy, childbirth, depression) etc can affect desire. There is no excuse to cheat period ever and in these cases I think that the partners should talk but the spouse wanting more should try to be understanding of the issue - perhaps there are other ways to meet their needs.

6. But too often I've felt that my H just wouldn't make time for me in that way. Feeling that rejection over a long period of time, when there is no medical reason, does lead to feelings of resentment, loneliness, etc. It sets the stage for the feelings that can lead to an A. Of course the healthy spouse talks through these issues with their spouse and identifies them and does not have an A. The poor copers may make the poor decision to cope by having an A.

Edited for English!

[This message edited by gutfeeling at 11:40 AM, July 10th (Thursday)]

Bettayed because i wasnt initiating sex, and showing him he was wanted and desired... and maybe he could have gotten that from others if he wasnt married. And he gave up that option to b married to me, then didnt get what he expected. He hasnt explicitly told me he feels betrayed but he could be based on this article

Bullshit, and I did not read the article. In a 'sexless' marriage?... Talk about it to each other, seek help, do whatever constructive as a couple to see if really the case, what might be done. If all fails, divorce, and move on. This way you keep your honor, and your word.

Cheating is the spineless cowards way of not addressing things, cake eating, an excuse, and Bullshit for this convoluted, equalitative logic that sexless (even if true)= lying and sneaking around is OK... Pure bullshit.

I vehemently oppose the comparison to an affair. I did read it and there are some interesting points on how one of the spouses can be hurt by a "sexless marriage" but there really is no comparison. First off, an affair effects the entire family unit (why I'm here on SI). The damage from having an affair lasts a lifetime and in some cases generations. The lingering effects from an A are debilitating to both spouses after the A is over. Can any of that be said for damage caused by a "sexless marriage"?

Speaking from experience, and I wouldn't say that our marriage was completely "sexless", but we worked together on getting what we both wanted out of a sexual relationship by turning towards each other and working with each other to get what we both wanted. If either of us had an A, we would still be trying to overcome the damage created by the A. Whereas we were able to overcome our inhibitions with each other in the matter of months.

There's just no comparison. They are two completely different things. Obviously the writer has never suffered an A.

I tend to lean more towards gutfeelings stance.

But as mentioned, counseling/separation/divorce is the "honorable" route.

Bettayed because i wasnt initiating sex, and showing him he was wanted and desired... and maybe he could have gotten that from others if he wasnt married. And he gave up that option to b married to me, then didnt get what he expected. He hasnt explicitly told me he feels betrayed but he could be based on this article

So if he feels "betrayed", as NIK said there are so many other things that he can do besides have an A. There is no justification for the A. None. Did he ever talk to you? I mean really talk to you?

If you asked, would your kids think that the A was on a comparison level of a "sexless marriage".

"Betrayed" in this instance from your WH is another reason "why" and a reason for him to justify. There's just no comparison here.

ie Spouse 1. I am too tired to have sex. If you could take over the kids bath times every other night, I could use that time to regroup and would feel more in the mood when we go to bed together. Spouse 2. I can do that. Spouse 1 then puts good faith effort into being intimate.

5. Obviously physical issues (pregnancy, childbirth, depression) etc can affect desire. There is no excuse to cheat period ever and in these cases I think that the partners should talk but the spouse wanting more should try to be understanding of the issue - perhaps there are other ways to meet their needs.

I was spouse #1 and i askd him for help but didnt get it. I think he felt that since im a sahm it was up to me how to figure out a way to manage it all and make time for him

Esp when the twins came-forget it! He was basically off the radar for a while, and he still wasnt much help. He has workaholic traits, and my feelgs of abandonment and loneliness fueld the lack of sex.

Our sex was very sporadic and irregular, not completely nonexistent. I askd him if the problem was more that i refused his advances or that i didnt initiate. He said i didnt initiate

Blameshifting!

Did he ever talk to you? I mean really talk to you?

Yes we have had several talks over the years. In MC, the counselor askd him how i responded to his talks and he said thgs would chng for a while but i wasnt consistent. At least he can say i did change. He didnt move toward me IMO when i told him how much i needed him at home, quality time, etc. he made his work the reason why he couldnt meet my needs, addg that i wasnt workg and he has to put more hours in to be on his A game and not lose his way of providg for us

Then later he told me he stayed at work to numb the pain of not gettg the attention he needed at home. Just plain messy

He also told me that he has suffered psychological damage from our sexless marriage and that really breaks my heart.

[This message edited by Imissmyhusb at 12:08 PM, July 10th (Thursday)]

I call bullshit! For one thing, a sexless marriage generally does not involve one partner lying to another, and certainly does not expose anyone in the marriage to fatal disease! And is this author suggesting that someone who cannot have sex with their spouse due to illness or other impairments is therefore intentionally choosing to wound the spouse? Again, bullshit.

As others point out, not having sex in a marriage may hurt the other partner, certainly. But the response should then be to TALK about the issue. A sexless marriage can become a sexual marriage if the issues that led to it are addressed. You cannot un-have an affair.

Regarding sexless relationship.

IMO, it takes two people to make it sexless.

There is a movie that runs on the Sundance channel called "the Freebie"

They show a couple who appear to be best friends and compatible in every way.

In it the husband is disinterested in sex because it has become stale after being married for awhile.

The wife tries buying sexy lingerie, but the husband is still not interested.

Yet, he seems to be placing all the blame on her for the sexless marriage.

IMO, this happens a lot in longterm sexless marriage.

Is it akin to cheating for a man who has erectile dysfunction to not have sex?

Of course not, and if a women cheated on a man with such a dysfunction she would be considered a lowlife.

But many women have painful sex, and this is not yet addressed as a health issue. It's seen as the women withholding sex.

It's a double standard in our society that needs to be addressed.

That whole thing about you "not working" pisses me off. Who else would do what you have to do to care for children, keep house AND keep her man hApPy! What a load of crock!

Krsplat says it beautifully:

"As others point out, not having sex in a marriage may hurt the other partner, certainly. But the response should then be to TALK about the issue. A sexless marriage can become a sexual marriage if the issues that led to it are addressed. You cannot un-have an affair".

This is the simple truth. T-A-L-K about it - even if that conversation goes something like this:

"You know, I am so frustrated that I am thinking about having an affair."

There is NO EXCUSE for having an affair. I have tried and tried to rationalize it for my FWH's sake, but I can't. Our issues were somewhat different, but if he had said those words to me (above), I would have moved heaven and earth to make sure he didn't stray...

My marriage was literally, actually, factually sexless for several years so I can speak from my own experience. The suggestions to talk about it, to "really" talk about it, are well intentioned and there are probably some cases where this will make a huge difference. In my experience talking about it (gently, compassionately, "I miss you and I miss having sex with you", not nagging or criticizing) not only did NOT solve the problem, but bringing it up upset my severely conflict-avoidant husband so badly that it essentially guaranteed it wouldn't happen. This was not the only subject where discussing a problem provoked a passive-aggressive punishing response, but it was the most personal and absolutely devastating.

At the time we could not have even remotely afforded counseling. I brought home books and he read them to humor me but totally blew off the message. We had kids, houses, a life, all kinds of dependencies--not to mention a history of actually loving each other and, maddeningly, a really great sex life during our long courtship and early marriage. So the idea of divorcing because the sex was gone is a whole lot easier said than done. It was very, very confusing and very, very painful. I did go outside my marriage to get affection and sex, and I will not say that it was a good solution, but it was absolutely a response to try to relieve what was for a very, very long time an intractable problem and NOT from lack of trying.

Several years on, including a separation and a whole lot of individual and couples therapy, he and I both understand that time period and the dynamics a lot better. In essence, he had no skills for dealing with resentment and anger and his own feelings of guilt and shame about his perceived failings at work and at home. This manifested as blaming me and distancing from me and so he avoided sex entirely. If this sounds a lot like wayward psychology it is in a way, we both recognize that his total checking out and abandoning of many aspects of the marriage including sex was a severe betrayal. In fact things were so awful before my A that I tried to get him to engage by asking him to please consider our marriage vows and what he had promised me, and he categorically refused to discuss.

Things have changed a lot for us, thankfully, and we are close to being fully healed. But in fact sex is still a difficult issue for us--now because of *my* hang ups about it, deriving from the period of literally years when he wouldn't be sexual or affectionate to me at all--I mean not even little peck kisses or hugs or holding hands. It has been a huge, huge challenge to reconnect physically when even the minor displays of affection carry so much baggage of pain and rejection.

I know this is really long, but I just had to weigh in to say that the "just talk about it" response is in some cases laughably naive. Also finally to add that when you're a woman and your husband is the one to reject you so completely, it's a whole other layer of mind games.

Yes we have had several talks over the years. In MC, the counselor askd him how i responded to his talks and he said thgs would chng for a while but i wasnt consistent. At least he can say i did change. He didnt move toward me IMO when i told him how much i needed him at home, quality time, etc. he made his work the reason why he couldnt meet my needs, addg that i wasnt workg and he has to put more hours in to be on his A game and not lose his way of providg for us

Then later he told me he stayed at work to numb the pain of not gettg the attention he needed at home. Just plain messy

He also told me that he has suffered psychological damage from our sexless marriage and that really breaks my heart.

Damn Imissmyhusb. The more you write (including the other threads) about your WH, the more I really want to shake some sense into him. He has really messed with your head and I couldn't possibly disagree with him more. I would have to point out to him how wrong he is and make him apologize to you. I'm absolutely pissed at this guy for this bullshit he has fed you. Psychological damage? Fuck him. This is more blame shifting, pathetic reasons, whatever you want to call it.

Staying at work to numb the pain? More bullshit!

Lets say he did feel those things and maybe he really did. Ok, so what should he have done about it? Yes, him!! He sounds like he is putting his "dark cloud" as your responsibility. I had that same dark cloud but never ever put that on my W. MrsYop and I went through all the typical life demands in our M. We had those same discussions that you and your H had to try and make things better for both of us and they would get better for a month or two and then slide right back to the way it was. This went on for roughly 3 years of having sex once a month or every 6 weeks or so until we stopped having sex altogether which lasted for 6 months. It took me realizing how unhappy I was, turning towards my W and apologizing for some of these same behaviors your WH is displaying, and discussing things with her. She reciprocated.

The difference between us turning towards each other vs. the previous discussions we had is we really listened to each other and made a concerted effort to really work on our issues or we knew the marriage probably wasn't going to last. Neither of us wanted that and we both wanted to be happier. We did many things to work together this past year and continue to do so. It wasn't just one conversation. The difference was it was communication that has now lasted for a year last month. We continue to work at it. This includes all aspects of the relationship. The parental/household duties we were already very good at and shared those equally since we are both professionals. <--- and I think this is where part of your WH's issue is. He doesn't see a SAHM as equal as a professional when you are in every sense a professional. I went to part time for a while and stayed home some days to take care of our kids so I can say that. He needs to see that...just for starters.

The responsibility is not to make him happy with more sex/initiating sex. Happiness and being more sexually fulfilled is something that actually starts with him. If he listened to you, really listened to you and found time in his busy work schedule, that helps 100x in the bedroom. It just does. I know it does. For a long time I thought MrsYop was ILYBINILWY and didn't like me sexually, although the quality of sex we had was very good WHEN we had it. I was going through my own rejection cycle (i.e. putting in lots of work hours to stay away, etc) and as it turns out, once I talked to her, and really listened, I found that she wanted sex and enjoyed it just as much as I did. She just had lots of issues getting there and if that means I take the kids once or twice a week off her hands at bed time so that gives her some relief (just using one of the many examples), then guess what started happening in the bedroom. Turns out she wants to have sex three times a week and "schedules" it and we are working together.

That's what your WH should realize about his own sexual fulfillment and happiness. He needs to put the same work in everywhere else with you, recognize that being a SAHM is the equivalent of being a professional and meet you in the middle.

There is no justifying his A with this other bullshit he's feeding you. He has problems and he's needlessly making them yours.

eta - typos

[This message edited by yearsofpain25 at 1:10 PM, July 10th (Thursday)]

Also finally to add that when you're a woman and your husband is the one to reject you so completely, it's a whole other layer of mind games

Tell me about it!

How do u continue to try and initiate when u walk into a rm wearg lingerie tryg to get your husb attn and he says 'i have work to do'? What a friggn blow. For someone who claimed to b a freak and wants it all the time, he made me feel like crap bcuz he didnt want me