SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Mrs TGNO - thank you for posting this. Your pain is palpable. I'm so sorry you're going through this.

Do you have values or do you want to end the marriage? Is there any way you could end the marriage first without doing this, and hold your head high leaving it? Which is more important to you - causing someone else pain to get even? Or honoring yourself?

I'm assuming some people have a tit for tat, eye for an eye value system. If this is you, then I understand. But if it's not, step back, get some clarity, and decide how you'd feel about this decision in 5 years. Would you be happy you did it?

Mrs TGNM, I admire your values. Honesty and integrity are priceless. I wish my fWS would have had the courage to involve me in her decision making process to get involved with others. I most likely would have agreed and we would have never ended up where we are today.

[This message edited by AFrayedKnot at 10:08 AM, September 10th (Wednesday)]

My wife 1) gave me a free pass, 2) plainly stated she would not like it, 3) plainly stated she would fight for me, and 4) recommended that I discuss this topic with my IC. It worked well for ME and OUR situation.

Having an affair was a significant idea rolling through my mind during initial recovery. It still pops up occasionally as a fantasy. Why? To have the experience, period. We were onlies.

My wife knew I was thinking about it. She did not attempt to control me, or try to explain how I felt. She plainly stated how SHE felt and how SHE would react(and fighting, BTW, I liked).

Probably the best thing she did was punt me to discuss this topic with my IC. She minimized the ammunition she gave me that I would use against her. If she gave me 75 reasons "telling" me why I should or why I should not have an affair, I would have spent days, months, and years if need, cultivating examples of how she clearly didn't understand the topic or me, because... obviously she didn't based on her actions(That's what I was thinking). And... with her wanting to discuss it further and wanting to close it out, well, it would have demonstrated to me how she feared me having an affair, such that I could have used the topic to test her, and maybe even hurt her. That was me, then.

Ultimately, I elected to NOT have an affair for my own reasons.

During the marriage, I feared getting caught via collecting an STD, and how loosing the onlies factor would affect my wife. Also, I didn't need to have an affair; I had plenty of other morally acceptable venues from which to collect my compensating kibbles and the money.

After D-day things changed. I wanted to keep the upper moral hand, just in case we divorced. I was in survival mode.

Later, my beliefs changed, and I learned how important it was to lead my kids by good example. My wife positioned us eggshells. My family, especially my kids, needed my strength more than ever. And furthermore, I learned to believe, that having an affair is USING an AP, and i'm not one to use another. In fact, I don't desire porn because of this new perspective.

I believe, vulnerability and opportunity increases the likelihood of your wife having an affair, but ultimately, your wife's choice to have or not have an affair will match her existing beliefs, and your efforts to change her beliefs might be counter productive in the double standards department if you are not careful. I recommend that she discusses this topic with her IC. Let her here it form the IC rather than you.

I want to thank MrsTGNM for allowing TGNM to share your letter. Are you a member here? Would you consider getting an account and posting in General?

I can remember having all the feelings you do, MrsTGNM. Yes, shredded and broken. A chump and a loser. STUPID! I felt extremely stupid. I remember going to MC and ranting about all my options are lose/lose for me. Take him back, whoppee!, I have a man who cheated on me, divorce and then I am not with the man I love, have a broken family and all the fun stuff that comes with divorce. Lose/lose.

No one wants to eat the shit sandwich. I didn't want to eat the shit sandwich, I fought it tooth and nail. But, once I got past the anger stage and really thought about what is going to make SisterMilkshake happy, it wasn't getting "even" with my FWH. It wasn't hurting him the way I was hurt. Its was having an authentic marriage. It was two people who were genuinely a team. It was two people who wanted to get old together. To be there for each other whilst we gasp our last breath. It was having two people who would die unto themselves for each other. That is what we are both working and striving for. That is what we have now.

Also, I would never tell someone they must forgive their WS. Many here have reconciled and claim to not have forgiven their WS. It takes years, I believe, of a remorseful spouse doing all he can to be a better person/spouse before most can even consider forgiveness, so take the forgiveness off the plate for right now. You may or may not get to that stage.

I get it, MrsTGNM. I never, ever tell anyone to be a doormat, and that is not what I was suggesting to you. This is either a dealbreaker for you or not. If you want to reconcile, don't go and fuck OM's (or OW's for that matter) this will just make that possibility harder. If you don't want to reconcile, go ahead and fuck your brains out with other people.

Everything you say about TGNM is true. I do understand. But, do you love him? If you don't know, then I suggest you wait before you start fucking around. Clarify for yourself what you want. Do you want this marriage? Do you want TGNM? Don't go selling your soul before you can think straight without all your emotions clouding the issues for you. You need to understand that you fucking other people is a very poor coping mechanism and placing your self worth on their validation of you is rather pathetic, as it is for every WS that did the same exact thing.

ETA: I kind of resent the implication that you feel every single BS here who has reconciled, without going out and fucking other people, are pathetic doormats. I do understand you are coming from a place of pain, but it is insulting to people who have reconciled to be called pathetic doormats.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 10:31 AM, September 10th (Wednesday)]

I think Mrs. TGNM does a great job laying it out there.

And as much as it hurts some to read that, yes, she is being honest. No lies, no deception. That preserves TGNM ability to have choices.

She wants to see if there is a Plan A out there. She is being honest. Maybe you, TGNM, need to give her that chance and separate.

Gently. She seems to feel trapped in the marriage. That she has no choice but to eat the shit sandwich.

Can you do anything to let her feel she has choices?

I wish I had the courage to tell my WH to leave at DD. (BS here.) It would have been so good for me. But I couldn't figure out how to do it without losing everything.

Perhaps there is a way to offer that choice with minimal loss and fear. Maybe you could offer a separation during which she gets to keep everything. The kids, the house, and whatever else in the world you can offer to help minimize her losses. You agree to move out and work on yourself. You make a resolution (I loathe to say vow)to stay away from other women. A chance to allow yourselves both to heal a bit. Then maybe after a few months she might feel that she has a real choice - to resume the marriage or divorce.

But your current marriage is a hostage situation. At least for her.

TGNM,

To your wife,

I cheated on my H after he had cheated on me. I told him I was going to do it before I did it. There were no lies before or after. We were separated at the time. I believe that he thought it was a threat and that I would not do it. He was informed within hours after the fact that I had indeed done it.

Here is what I have to say to you. While it did devastate him, it destroyed me. I have spent the past four years putting myself back together. And I wish that I had found any other way to do this. I shattered everything that I believed about myself in a fit of rage directed at him. Yes rage. I understand your pain and your rage at what has happened. Doing this will only add to it, not take it away. I didn't enjoy it, it sucked. Because it was not who I was. I was not being true to who I was in that moment.

Be true to who you are. Focus on healing you, and if that means getting away from your H to do it, then do it. You don't have to forgive him or even accept what he did. But you do have to heal you so that you can live again. Don't do more damage to yourself just to try to damage him. At this point, it isn't worth it. Coming from someone who has walked this path.

I hope you find your way, whatever that may be. Big hugs to you. TG

Her pain is so raw you can just feel it in her words. I remember that place and I remember thinking I would never survive.

She does sound trapped even though she's not. None of us are. It's really hard to see that when the pain is so immense.

It does sound like this was a dealbreaker for her and I imagine accepting that would be very difficult. It was very difficult for me to accept my wh wasn't motivated to do the work of R and my only option that retained my integrity was to be done with our relationship. It's a struggle allowing that to sink in, a very brutal mourning.

She says she can't feel more pain but unfortunately, that's not true. I can't stress strongly enough to continue to deny her permission to cheat. If that's enough to stop her from doing it, be the bad hypocrite guy until her head catches up to her heart.

I read all the posts on this thread and don't recall anyone saying she had to forgive you. I hope she gets an account here and posts. She'll find lots of support and understanding. I hope she continues with her IC and that for her, sometime soon, the devastating pain parts enough for her to come up for air. We are always here for her and for you. Keep hanging in there.

[This message edited by BtraydWife at 11:46 AM, September 10th (Wednesday)]

She does sound trapped even though she's not. None of us are.

I’m not sure I agree with this.

Yes, we all have choices, but as Mrs. TGNM states for the BS they all suck. The BS is forced into a lose/lose decision and they are trapped making a decision they never wanted. But what Mrs. TGNM also fails to realize is that what she is asking for doesn’t fix this, it just makes the decisions worse for everyone.

Mrs. TGNM,

No one here is asking for you to be a chump, loser, or a doormat. What they are hoping is that you can see that causing more destruction doesn’t fix anything. It doesn’t make anything better. Destroying yourself, your morals, your values, and your vision of yourself will not help make the situation any better.

[This message edited by nomoreplease at 12:34 PM, September 10th (Wednesday)]

Mrs TGNM is on SI and has posted hundreds of times since DDay. She is most frequently a frequent poster in the General forum, and has even had discussions with some of the BW's who have commented on this thread. She and I prefer not to claim each other on here yet. We had trouble with my xAP stalking her.

Sister,

I called myself a pathetic doormat early in my recovery too! I was a beer drinking, wrench turning, father of two sons, jacked up truck driving, hunter, successful respected senior engineer supervisor, good-old-boy, fix anything, design anything, 450 horse power small block building and driving, home project anything, large home providing, neighborhood tool supplying, physical pain taking, athletic, provider, .. uhmm......wait.....scratch all that.....I was a wimpy husband, -the wimpiest I knew. This was my struggle. Worse yet, the more I looked back at my history, the more I collected facts that supported this new perception of myself. It dragged me down, and down.

I initially choose not to have an affair only because I wanted to maintain the upper hand on my wife for court if needed, - this was my choice based on my original me, my backup plan. Things were going well with recovery with my wife but this idea alone prevented me from seeing what having sex with someone else was like.

Then I started reading, talking, learning. I started only seeing and hearing those ideas that supported my own, certainly not those that conflicted. Its a natural behavior. Its hard to reflect and change. And it takes time to see. But I kept reading, talking, learning, and reflecting, and than I started seeing things I never recognized before. The more new I saw, the more motivated I was to keep my eyes open.

Mrs TGNM,

I didn't see your response because I was typing my own (I am a slow at writing down my thoughts). I hope you find a way to hold back from having an affair, because eventually I believe you will come to understand that what Sister, TG, and Rachel, and most all other BSs and Madhatters are saying is, DON'T for YOU. We are trying to help YOU in our own way. Also, I must say, (and I expect you will call me crazy. I would done the same early in my recovery) that I am more at peace with myself and life right now then ever before. It took me several years.

Thatguynomore, If your wife wishes to post, please have her use her own account and follow the posting rules for this forum.

Mrs TGNM,

Oh, how I feel the pain, anger, and rage in your words. I truly do sympathize... there just seems to be no "good" option sometimes when we are facing the shit sandwich. This stuff just sucks.

Amidst all these opinions, I'd like to add one thought that is completely different. Beyond how a RA might make you feel, have you considered how your kids would think of you, if they were to find out?

In a WS thoughts, I don't think they often think about this angle... the fallout...

In my sitch, my 2 oldest kids found out about the A 6 months before I did. It's caused them an extraordinary amount of pain. The only silver lining from all the harm that this has done to their perceptions of morality, right/wrong, honesty, love, etc., is the idea that I (we) can teach them what we have learned from this and try to be better examples from now on. I can't undo the damage that has been done. I can't make them un-know everything they do.

But, even tho my DD thought I was a pathetic doormat for trying to R, my DSs see me as strong, loyal, and faithful. I'm trying to use this as a teaching tool so that (hopefully) they can live better, more authentic lives. I want to be a shining example for them (even if I often feel broken and weak). I want to show my strength and morality for them. What would an RA teach them?

It's easy to convince ourselves that "no one will find out". Ugh. So many news stories today should convince us that this is not the truth. What would we choose to do if we knew *everyone* would find out? What would we choose to do if our kids would find out? Those are consequences you will have to live with if you decide that this is the path you wish to pursue.

I really hope you do not. If you cannot get past this, it is okay. But please, stick to you own morals and integrity, and choose to D before you sell yourself out. It's okay for his A to be a dealbreaker. Then break the deal and move forward in a healthy way. Please. For your own good and the good of the generations of children in your family who will be affected by this.

Edited to add: TGNM, I am sorry for responding to your wife and not you as the OP. I guess I know your question was whether or not approving this RA is a good idea. I hope all my thoughts above are relevant to that discussion... even if they are directed at your wife.

[This message edited by StillStanding1 at 1:49 PM, September 10th (Wednesday)]

^^^^^What SS1 just said. This is what I was hinting at a few pages back when I spoke of my personal experience from a betrayed child point of view. SS1 said it much better than I did.

eta - the betrayal goes past the individual into other areas of the family unit.

[This message edited by yearsofpain25 at 1:50 PM, September 10th (Wednesday)]

she wants my permission to do so

This is a small point of semantics, but I have to say there is something distasteful about the phrase "asking for permission". Even worse, the posters telling you to "deny her permission."

She is not a child. She is not a slave or a prisoner asking to be let out of her cage.

And if that is how you (or she) thinks of it, I think you have a deeper problem. Unless you have both agreed that she is subordinate to your authority. (Some people still make women promise to "obey" in their marriage vows. But event then, those vows are moot now, aren't they?)

She can ask you what you would think, feel or do if she had an RA,and in particular, whether you would still be interested in R. You can tell her as honestly as you can. And then she can make her own adult, autonomous decision.

But part of the problem of infidelity is that the WS feels entitled to more rights and privileges within the marriage than the BS. And this wording echos that thinking.

rbfl234,

Permission? Blessing? Approval? Acquiescence? Pick a word that describes her telling me what she wants to do without guilt.

but I have to say there is something distasteful about the phrase "asking for permission". Even worse, the posters telling you to "deny her permission."

It is just semantics. It's the term she used herself which is why I used it. I can't speak for anyone else.

Early on in the thread several people posted and Thatguy reiterated that he does not control her, she will ultimately do what she wants.

She specifically asked for permission in order to alleviate any guilt she would have for cheating. I don't think it's appropriate to pick apart her words at this time.

Thatguy- I'm glad she has posted and I hope she continues to do so. Neither one of you are obligated to reveal who she is. So don't feel you need to explain that.

I have also frequently had the desire/fantasy of have a RA. In my "plan" - which never really went very far - I was going to find a guy on AM (same start as WH) but I was going to make sure that WH knew ahead of time the exact moment we were supposed to meet for NSA, so that the whole time I was gone, he would be tortured at the thought of what I was doing. TBH, the number one thing that stopped me was that I really have no desire to have sex with anyone else, and can't really imagine myself in any intimacy with another man. Plus, when this plan was heavily in my thoughts, I wasn't sure that WH would actually be troubled by this, and that was the only positive I thought I would accomplish.

She specifically asked for permission in order to alleviate any guilt she would have for cheating. I don't think it's appropriate to pick apart her words at this time.

Respectfully, I think the words raise some issues that might be helpful to think about, including:

getting "permission" in advance won't protect her from guilt or TGNO from pain that are likely to result from an RA. And if she thinks of this way, she is likely to be disappointed.

Making him TGNO the authority with the right to grant permission, leaves TGNO responsible for the consequences. It is a problematic set of assumptions.

Mrs. TGNM, I get it. We all do. I'm so sorry for your pain. But you said this:

I would never in a million years have thought about being with another man.

I can completely relate to the quote above. It never occurred to me in 18 years of marriage to cheat on my wife. So what changed? My wife had an affair. So the question for me became: will I give my WW and her AP the power to turn me into something that I'm not?

Once I framed it that way, the answer was simple: hell no.

Remain faithful to your values. No one has the power to make you less than you are. Fight for yourself. And if you do take the plunge, make sure you place the blame squarely where it belongs...on yourself.