SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Your fear and reluctance to divorce will give her the upper hand in all this. That she could not even act like she wasn't going to miss her lover is very telling.

I think you'll end up playing Sherlock Holmes for long time yet.

She needs to know you are prepared to end the marriage if she doesn't get herself together and fully commit. Nothing you've said really shows she will end the affair.

She can get another phone

Take sick leave to meet him

Have a secret email account

If they are determined.. this won't stop. They'll go low contact for a while... then ramp it up.

Your fear won't help.

Be tough and don't be disrespected.

I'm going to do whatever it takes to fight to stay together.

It always kills me when people write this. It sounds so Nobel and yet...it really allows the WW free reign. For example I've got a friend that said this from the start. They worked on her... she felt the A stemmed from her poor self-esteem. They paid for her to get a boob job because that's what SHE needed. He did lot's of other things to save the marriage for the kids... long story short she had another A and got pg from it. They are now divorced, he is doing great but her not so much. I tell you this story because jumping to anything only works if the WW is saying it.

She scowled and rolled her eyes, explaining that she needs time to grieve the loss of her deeply loving relationship with AP.

This is not a remorseful spouse. If you think about what she did to you. The lies, the making you feel guilty, the exposure to STD's, the focus on OM and not kids... She should be in utter despair about how she treated YOU. The damage she has done to YOU and the Marriage, the betrayal of the kids and family. Morning the loss of OM does not show remorse for the affair it shows sadness that she got caught.

Any other suggestions would be great, especially about how much space I should give her and how much spying I should still be doing. Thanks guys!

I would not trust her at all. My thoughts is that she is "playing" nice until her folks are gone and you turn your head.

I'd put a keylogger on her compute, I believe this would show if she logs on/unblocks...

Is the OM married? If so you need to tell his wife/girlfriend ASAP. Two sets of eyes keeping a look out are better than one. I would not go to MC - as she doesn't seem fully invested and will only blame shift.

I would also read up on 180. I know it sounds counterproductive but it really works. She is not out of the fog because she knows there is no way she is losing you. This will give her an idea of what she almost gave up. It will also pull you out of your own fog...that says Divorce would NOT be the worst thing in the world. Continually living in infidelity would be much worse than divorce for both you and the kids.

Didn't mean to sound too harsh. This is very recent for you and you are making the normal steps a BS makes...just trying to help you get out of limbo quicker.

[This message edited by Freeme at 9:34 AM, March 2nd (Wednesday)]

So painful to hear that I've already failed, but I want to survive. I never want to be in this position ever, ever, again. Thank you for your wisdom. I have been way to easy on her already. This is really on the counsel of her parents. I'm fairly confident when her parents leave she will fall back into things. Maybe not right away, but a week or so, there's no way she will be able to resist. I heard they talking about can tell how in love she is. The OM is highly intertwined in her job. OM is not local (infact he lives overseas). They spent a lot of time talking over google hangouts (archived with history off, really hard for me to find), and have been together many times over the last 8 months during "business travel". She is a consultant and even has "acquired" a contract with his company overseas. I've asked that she completely cut ties with him and this contract, she's reluctant. I've asked she tell her boss about the A, because there may be legal issues, but she doesn't want to. She still is over and over telling me she will do anything for me and to stay with us, but I don't believe it, because she is reluctant. She got on her knees and asked me to stay and apologized, but I don't believe it. I made a MC appointment tonight, but after your advice I'm refusing to go now. She is saying she will go without me. Instead of all the work trying to find counseling, maybe I'll just find a lawyer. I'm financially ruined right now though due to all this (she bought tons of clothes and shoes, super expensive spa and restaurants, cabs, international phone bills... I'm ~20k in debt now). Not sure how I'm going to pay for a lawyer. Is there a forceful set of divorce papers I can give her that won't cost much? How do I present them to her with finality. I don't want to divorce her, I want to snap her back. If it comes down to it, I will though. Would it be possible for me to take the kids away from her? I don't want someone who is capable of such evil teaching my kids anything. I'm no saint myself. I've been somewhat unstable and I'm afraid in front of a jury, there would be too much against me to say that I can have them. I don't want it anyway, I want to fix her, or have her fix herself and be together as a family again.

I skimmed the 180 stuff and it seems like all good stuff, but not sinking in right now. I'm spinning so much. Your being here for me is enormous, please keep replying. I've read everything multiple times. It gives me strength and hope.

[This message edited by ronoh at 10:52 PM, March 8th (Tuesday)]

No one can ever really understand what you are going through unless they have been through it themselves.

I see many red flags and danger for you. Your wife is already accusing you of things. You need to stop letting her goad you into arguments. Learn to walk away.

You cannot fight for your marriage actually, because you didnt ruin it, she did. You cannot control her, only she can control what she did wrong and either make the right choices are the wrong ones.

IMO right now, she is making and doing everything wrong.

explaining that she needs time to grieve the loss of her deeply loving relationship with AP.

She rolled her eyes and said this. She most certainly does not get it at all, she has no clue as to the magnitude of the damage she has caused, damage that might not be repairable.

She must quit her job immediately, otherwise it would be very unfair to you. She cannot travel in any way at this time, again, unfair to you.

She is the one that broke the trust, and she is the only one that can ever rebuild the trust you once had in her.

When you got this MC, did you make sure that they were well versed in affairs. Some MC actually make things worse by saying idiotic things like let the affair end on its own or forget the past and move on...some of the worst advice possible.

Rug sweeping an affair usually leads to more affairs later on, unless your wife can possibly stop her pity party and be honest with herself and figure out how she could ever cross this boundary and how she will never cross these boundaries again.

You cannot really fight for your marriage, because you cannot control her. But you can control your life going forward. Number 1, dont allow her to lie to you anymore, if you choose to, you can snoop, you can put a VAR in her car, etc.

Do not allow her affair to ever be easy. Do you know much about this OM, call his wife and let her know what he does on these trips.

Also, you should get a VAR voice activated recorder and keep it on you at all times, since she is now accusing you of things.

As for the debt she piled up, when does she plan on repaying for her new toys.

You have not failed. This is a long journey you are on regardless of the outcome, and the days in the wake of discovery are hard enough without you putting pressure on yourself. You can not control your WW's actions or thoughts. You can only control your own. Do not despair of her parents. At the end of the day, they are her parents, and I am sure you would agree, you would always side with your children. Good call about cancelling MC. She is nowhere near ready for that.

How can she say she is "willing to do anything" one second, and then be reluctant to do the things you need? That's why people say trust her actions, not her words.

You need to be willing to lose your M in order to save it. Your WW is still in the land of unicorns and rainbows. Sit her down, and calmly tell her you will accept nothing less than her 100% commitment to fixing what she destroyed and helping you heal. Give her a simple choice. She either goes in 100% with you, or she can leave and be with "lover boy". It is either you and the M, or the OM. She can not have both. Any response short of I am 100% with you means you must initiate the 180 right away. It is not to punish her, but to put yourself in a stronger emotional position. If she says she is 100% with you, then you tell her actions will be the judge of that not words. Reiterate your needs, ie she needs to quit her job, go 100% NC, go to IC to find her whys, the 100% truth, full transparency etc. In the mean time, you will just watch and use the time to make up your mind. This is a process that could take months. She must understand there are no guarantees other than the fact that if she ever contacts the POSOM again you are perfectly willing to junk the M and move on. Do not beg her or try to reason with her. Stop arguing with her. Just state your case calmly and factually. Let her know the ball is in her court, and how you move forward is totally up to her.

Personally speaking though, if the A is with someone she works with, I would strongly suggest she gets a new job if you can afford it. That is a consequence of having an A. It will aid your sanity, and at least hinder any further communication via work channels you may not have access to, because as it stands now, you really have no way to verify the A is over if they can communicate at work without your knowledge. Her behavior in my eyes indicates someone who is still in the A. You need to make sure it is dead. Best way is to tell POSOM's spouse or GF what is going on. Two sets of eyes are better than 1. Do not tell your WW you are doing it though. If she confronts you about it after you have contacted the OBS, then you know NC is not being followed.

I know you went for STD tests. Did she? If not, why are you the on l to suffer the embarrassment? She should get it done too. It is a consequence of being unfaithful.

Look for a lawyer who provides free consults. Ask him as many questions as you can about the D process, your rights and responsibilities etc. Knowledge is power, and it will help you immensely to know exactly where you stand.

I don't want it anyway, I want to fix her, or have her fix herself and be together as a family again.

That's great. However, she must want it too. R takes 2 and the way she is behaving is screaming she is not 100% in.

Most of us have walked the path you are on now, and we are here to help you. Stay strong brother.

[This message edited by jigga114 at 11:37 AM, March 1st (Tuesday)]

I heard them talking about they can tell how in love she is.

While sometimes in-laws can be helpful after infidelity, that doesn't seem to be the majority of the time. What you've discovered is that they are in their daughter's corner and aren't doing what is best for the marriage. It isn't surprising, but know that this is the case. Their advice to go soft on their daughter isn't doing you any favors, so go ahead and discard it now.

she got breast implants, bought tons of clothes and shoes, super expensive spa and restaurants, cabs, international phone bills

You are trying to be nice to her in the hopes of getting her love in return. However, she is just using you for her own benefit. She has already put you in a deep financial hole and now she is using everything you've paid for to make a play for another man. Understanding the pattern that you are caught in will be vitally important for you. Please get a copy of "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Robert Glover and/or take a look at this thread here on SI (http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=573775)

She got on her knees and asked me to stay and apologized

She is a proven liar and manipulator. Do not believe a word that comes out of her mouth. Watch her actions and, maybe, only believe about 50% of those.

she's reluctant...she doesn't want to.

These are the actions you should be paying attention to. She is actively refusing to commit to the marriage. She is telling you that she wants to continue using you for your money, for the things you give her, to have access to the kids, to stay in the same house, but that she wants to continue having "fun" with the other man and ignoring you.

I grabbed her by the shoulders and shook her and yelled in her face yesterday when she tried to run away from me. She screamed leave me alone and I just grabbed her and squeezer her so tight.

The injustice of being used and betrayed is infuriating. We all get that. However, DO NOT physically touch her again. Wayward spouses have been known to bait their mate into a fight just to get the exact reaction that you displayed. A call to the police is made, domestic violence (DV) charges are brought up, a restraining order is served and the betrayed spouse finds themselves unable to go into their own home or see their own children. I'm guessing that your wife figures that she still has you caught in her little game, so she didn't go down that path. Once you stop accepting her excuses, she could easily resort to this type of tactic to not only get you out of the house temporarily, but to argue to take your kids away permanently. While anger is a normal reaction to being severely disrespected, you MUST find ways to channel your anger in a non-destructive manner outside of the presence of your wife and kids. If you have to, go get an IC (individual counselor) for you right now. You certainly could use one for the huge emotional trauma you've just suffered, but getting help for dealing with anger is common for men as well.

With the change in your tactics already occurring, you may want to get a VAR (voice activated recorder) to keep on you at all times. It will serve as a deterrent from you saying/doing anything that you know could be used against you, but it will also capture anything your wife says that demonstrates she is trying to manipulate the situation or that is outright false (e.g. in the case she eventually accuses you of DV).

I want to fix her

You can't. The only thing you can do is focus on yourself. Your best move is to require nothing less than being loved and respected. Anything other than that should trigger consequences (e.g. filing divorce papers) that demonstrate you will follow through on what you say. ANY waivering or continued attempts to "nice" her back into the marriage just trains her that she can do what she wants. While whether your marriage survives depends mainly on her choices right now, being resolute in what you require is your only real shot at having her wake up from the deluded state she is in.

Not sure how I'm going to pay for a lawyer.

Go get a free consultation to educate yourself on what your rights are, the likely outcomes and what the cost would be. See a second or third lawyer if you like -- you can cross-check the information you've received and it is my understanding that any that you talk to cannot take her case (conflict of interest).

Make certain to ask about the debt that you have due to her expenses. Ask if there is a way to recover any of that through divorce (you may want to catalog anything that she has purchased which has been used primarily to benefit the other man or to be used in the affair). Ask how you should protect yourself financially given her spending habits. Ask about what finances might look like post divorce given her income and yours.

[This message edited by Crushed7 at 12:42 PM, March 1st (Tuesday)]

Your marriage is over, you are still in denial about it but rest assured, you will eventually get a divorce.

You are still in shock but you won't be like this for ever and once the dust settles and you gain your wits about yourself I suspect you will want a D ASAP.

There are certain things that people can't (and maybe shouldn't) get over and I think she has crossed that line with you. Your emotions are clouding your thinking and the full effect of what she has done hasn't really had a chance to set in yet. Really, having sex with another guy on your anniversary? To me that would be a deal breaker regardless of the situation.

You can't fix her or the M (that would be her job anyway) nor can you undo the damage she has done. You need to accept that she is who she is and you really don't have much of a choice.

...She was begrudging about it, but went through with it...She was really upset about it ...scowled and rolled her eyes...needs time to grieve the loss of her deeply loving relationship with AP...seems to be mourning it

*sigh*

What a steaming load of bull#$% she has thrown onto you.

I'm not sure how much space to give her to do this.

Zero. Give her zero space. Give her absolutely nothing. What she wants is not what she needs. What she needs is a sharp, brutal shock to even begin to understand the damage she caused.

Visit a lawyer, draw up divorce papers, and serve them to her. Make it known to her exactly what it will take for you to agree to tear them up. Emotionally distance yourself from her right now since she is a toxic waste dump of conflicted feelings. Then watch her. Actions are everything. She wants to feel sorry for herself? Let her...while she sits on the curb wondering who is going to house and feed her.

Don't put up with a micro-second of her "woe is me" BS. That's what parents are for.

Put yourself in control and tolerate nothing you don't want to tolerate. Do not live in an open marriage.

Sending strength!!!

I'm financially ruined right now though due to all this (she got breast implants, bought tons of clothes and shoes, super expensive spa and restaurants, cabs, international phone bills... I'm ~20k in debt now).

ronoh

This was all for her boyfriend. Keep records of this because if you divorce it may count as money you have already given her.

Ronoh,

I know your pain. It will last for months. But after a few months, it may not be as sharp. I say "may not" because it still may be. When it hits me (an image of my WH fucking someone else - forgive for the adjective but that's what he did), it hits me in my stomach or my chest and I feel physical pain. Ride it out when it comes. Cry and cry. And then pick yourself up from the floor. Only you have the power to pick yourself up. And in time, teach yourself to accept it. I used to look at myself in the mirror and say, "My husband is a liar and a cheat and he cheated on me over and over again but I must pick myself up." You are not the first and will not be the last man to experience this. Take care of yourself for now and in a few months, you'll see where you are in terms of reconciliation. Insist and demand that she breaks it off with that man in front of you.

You can reconcile with her, but not if her heart is not in it. If she really would rather be with other man, would you want her to stay out of guilt or obligation? Would you want to stay married if she loves other man and settles for you?

I always advice the betrayeds to encourage the cheaters to pursue their dream of being together with the other partners. I did not say help them, pay for them, support them, I am saying encourage them. Tell her IF she is "in love" with the other man, then she should go to him. Tell her that you want her to stay only if she is in love with you.

Explain that being "in love" is a stable married love, the spark can be rekindled, too. Tell her the affair is based on fantasy because no "real-life" stresses are involved in the affair. There is no financial problems, there are no bills piling up, there are no kids to worry about and spend time with, there are no chores, there is nothing unpleasant or difficult that would be included in any "real" relationship. There is only endless time spent on sex talk, sex, and "I love you's.". There is no marriage that is like that. Tell her that and ask her, if she married him instead if you, wouldn't she just be in the same spot, bills piling up, chores, kids, stresses in life, that she has with you now?

If you think she will think that makes sense, it will not. Most cheaters lose ability to rational or logical thoughts about their affair fantasy. She will think if she married other man, all of the regular problems would be fantastic because she is with him, and she would never, ever lose that infatuation " butterfly" feelings.

She will feel that way until you take away her safety net. Walking on the tight wire is exciting while a safety net is safely awaiting below. She may realize the truth of the situation when you actually let her go. She really will figure it out if she goes to be with him.

Tell her she has told you she would di "anything," yet she already has told you she wouldn't. Tell her what you want and if she I'd "reluctant" and refusing, then she is lying again. Tell her you are dine with lies.

Do not make threats or ultimatums. Don't limit your options. Tell her the current situation is unacceptable. It is OK to tell her you love her, but at the same time you will not hesitate to move on if the marriage is not acceptable to you. Don't yell or call names. It is counter-productive.

If she does want to go with other man, tell her to go, but you're not paying for her anymore if she is being with him. Tell her to pay it for herself or let other man start paying, after all, he is getting the truth and her love, you are just getting the shaft.

[This message edited by wk55hn at 3:17 PM, March 1st (Tuesday)]

Ronoh,

First you need to chill.

The last thing you need to do is snap and have her geta restraining order against you and throw you out of the house, and then re-connect with the affair partner. meditate, see your doctors and get meds but chill the fuck out !!

Secondly, she hardly seems remorseful, in fact, she seems pretty irritated. She financially ruined you while cheating on you flagrantly and now shows no remorse. What positive attribute does she ahve for you to want to stay in this marriage ? I agree with Dobby and Freeme

Staying together for the kids is not always a wise thing. By the time another decade goes by, you will only be a shell of the man you were with no self esteem and tortured. I would hold open the possibility of a divorce. Otherwise, you are screwing yourself by sticking around.

Third, even if you 'take your time to assess', a principle I don't always agree with, what are you doing to make sure there's no contact ? Look at Freeme's post to get started.

So painful to hear that I've already failed, but I want to survive.

First off you haven't failed those were normal first reactions for a BS.

This is really on the counsel of her parents. I'm fairly confident when her parents leave she will fall back into things. ... I heard they talking about can tell how in love she is.

They are her parents... they want you to be "nice" to her... they want her to be "happy"...It's easier to think that their daughter just fell so "in Love" that she wasn't thinking clearly then...that their daughter ran up 20,000 and committed Adultery and ruined her family. Remember they created this Very, very selfish person...I'm not saying be evil to her I'm saying look at the motives behind the people giving them.

The OM is highly intertwined in her job. OM is not local (in fact he lives overseas).

she got breast implants, bought tons of clothes and shoes, super expensive spa and restaurants, cabs, international phone bills... I'm ~20k in debt now

Ok so the "running away together" is a fantasy. This guy isn't likely to move local to be closer to your wife and her kids so they can live "happily ever after". Also, 20,000!!!! Sounds to me like she is trying to "win HIM" over. That SHE was putting all the effort/chase into the relationship. In truth unless she can claim DV on you she is stuck. She isn't going to be able to move the kids to him and it's doubtful he is going to move to your town. Find out if he is married - that will end this A immediately.

I know you are in debt because of this but how much do you depend on her income? The truth is that this marriage isn't going to work if she is still working with him. You will never heal and constantly be worried. You could have all of her electronics locked down but if she is till working with OM... it doesn't really matter. Eventually you are going to have to tell her boss.

Along those lines ... I don't recommend ultimatums unless you are 100% sure you can carry them out. So, saying "Do this or it's over, or any other "rule" breaking and it's over puts you in a tight spot unless you are ready to divorce immediately. You can say "everyday you _________Blank... I grown a less sure that our marriage will survive and I detach from you a little more. At some point there will be nothing left. I make this suggesting because you don't seem ready to divorce and are being very "nice" about the things she should want to do. This can be used for eye rolls to "I miss..." This also goes along with the 180... she will see you detach. Also, don't get into "argument's" about it with her. When she fights you on your reason for detaching say "I'm sorry you feel that way and walk away." This will show your detachment and allow you to calm down.

I made a MC appointment tonight, but after your advice I'm refusing to go now. She is saying she will go without me.

Yes, great! IC for her or you is fine.

Instead of all the work trying to find counseling, maybe I'll just find a lawyer. I'm financially ruined right now though due to all this.

Please do. Call around and find one/some that will meet with you for free. Ask about the debt she incurred during her A. I know you are not ready to D, think of it as a way to find out what your options are.

How do I present them to her with finality. I don't want to divorce her, I want to snap her back. If it comes down to it, I will though.

I've heard about people printing the forms off of the internet...but i can't see this snapping her out of it because YOU aren't really ready to divorce.

She said that I was physically abusing her.

THIS worries me. She went there VERY quickly and could easily be thinking that a DV charge would solve all of her problems. Suddenly she's not cheating...it's because you are abusive, she get's the house and kids and you are at a hotel yet still have to pay for everything... From now on carry a VAR on you at all times. Some people use an app on their phone.

I skimmed the 180 stuff and it seems like all good stuff, but not sinking in right now. I'm spinning so much.

I think the 180 would be great for you right now. It would help with her parents... they will see you as a Calm rational person, it will help you with the DV worry (walk away) it will help her to see that she might lose you. It will help you out of your "do anything to save the marriage" fog.

It's like when you refused to go to MC. She suddenly became concerned that you weren't 100% into the marriage. Prior to that she was grieving the loss of OM and could care less what you were doing to save it.

[This message edited by Freeme at 5:18 AM, March 2nd (Wednesday)]

I agree with Freeme. Listen to Freeme !!!!

You haven't failed at all!! This is a marathon, not a sprint. But the good people here (and particularly the betrayed men that come to help other men, for you) are AMAZING and know their shit. LISTEN TO THEM!! Ask for advice here before you make your moves. Let them help you decide if your IC or MC knows their stuff too. You are extremely fortunate to find SI so early. Seriously, you have no idea yet how valuable this will be to you.

This woman does not love you. She has no respect for you. Do not try to make a life with a woman who doesn't love you and loves another man for it will eventually suck the life out of you. And this lack of love and respect is going to be seen by your children. You may not think they notice, but they do. Children are smarter than adults give them credit for. Your whole situation is a train wreak looking for a place to happen. If you are staying for the children, I read once that "It is better to raise children from a broken home than to raise children in a home that is broken". Get out while you can.

This is a false reconciliation and you are going about this completely the wrong way.

She is in love with him and never wanted it to end.

She still does not want it to end, and believe me, it will not end - its just a matter of time before she starts it up again.

She wants to mourn the loss of her loved one - incredible! How can you as a man sit there and listen to this drivel?

She wants to stay with you (for the time being) to keep the status quo. Thats all - there is no love for you or care for her "family".

You cannot force her to do something she clearly does not want to do - do you want to have her as your wife on this basis ? Its untenable.

You need to kick her out so fast it would make her head spin. Inform the employers and think about suing them for alienation of affection. Destroy the b@st@rd POS other man!

Start taking care of your self and your kids. Protect yourself financially and legally. Do the 180 and detach to help you heal. File for divorce asap.

I visited a lawyer yesterday. I'll try to visit more to get some second opinions, but it will cost ~1200 to begin to file divorce. And way more to go through with it. Once I started strongly suggesting divorce, then she started acting a little more remorseful. Still not the level of remorse that I expect or need from her I need now. She sat on my lap, looked into my eyes and said it's over with him, and that she chooses me. She hugged me a few times through the evening, trying to show support, but it looks just like all the lies she gave me for the past 8 months. I called her a liar and that nothing she says can be trusted and that I'd spoken to a lawyer and I'm in the process of filling and that she will be served either today or tomorrow. She begged me not to, but I didn't back down. She wanted to sleep together last night, but I refused. I told her she must take a leave of absence from her job, leave the house and go home with her parents for daily counseling and to live in a monastery there for a little while. I don't want her back for at least 1 month. She has refused to do this. She wants to continue her job. She says if she quits, then she becomes vulnerable, and if I leave, then she will have no means to support herself and the kids. She is also refusing to abandon the kids. She is still in the fog. Do I send the kids with her? I honestly don't want my kids cared for by someone who is capable of such horrible evil as she has done to me. I'm not sure that I am strong enough to snap her out of the fog.

He lives in XXX. I know a lot about him, but I don't know his wifes name. I'd love to tell her about it, but am conflict about the ethics of this. Are you guys serious that I should try to reach out to her and tell her the bad news?

[This message edited by ronoh at 10:49 PM, March 8th (Tuesday)]

ok doing better, starting to make a stand. Keep it going