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DG,

Let me add on the the brickbats coming your way.

Whatever you did, verbal, mental even physical abuse does not justify an affair. Divorce, police, counseling? Sure, but you have zero responsibility for her involvement with the OM. That your behavior is being trotted out as justification for that whole tawdry mess is a red flag in my opinion.

On her thread Wishes never really responds to requests for a simple timeline, never explains her actions and never addresses her self destructive and reckless behaviors.

I am sure she has many wonderful qualities and it's not fair to judge her based on the truly disturbing email thread you shared but yikes...

Finishing my last post

Her choice of low life to get involved with and her attraction to his behavior is another red flag. In plain English normal, healthy people don't get tangled up with those types of characters. The fact that she was attracted to this loser tells me she has a lot of work ahead of her to get herself back to normalcy.

Entertain the idea that you and her may not be as good a fit together as you had thought.

HurtButHopeful?

Why did you leave out the fact that when she questioned your sanity it was during the texting with your mutual friend and partner, which you found out to be innocent?

You had all of us believing that she said that during her actual affair with video game boy.

And when she got the children involved, and tried to get you to go to counseling, and you refused, was that also during the first texting period with the mutual friend? If the answer was yes, then she did nothing wrong.

People lashed out at her over on TAM, because of your own omissions and mixing of timelines in our your thread. Something to consider: you will not get the help you need here on SI if you aren't honest about the timelines, what you did, when you did it, when she did things, etc.

You said she suffered emotional abuse. You explained some of that. What about the physical abuse and the psychological abuse? What did you do to her?

All true and good questions. I thought her associate in CA was more than just a friend because she would text him at all hours and hide her phone. I found only when getting copies of her texts that her conversations with him were concerning problems in our marriage and he was giving her good, very good counsel. She did not want me to see texts for fear of making things worse between us.

My anger took control and yes, this is when she said I was crazy to think there could be something between her and her associate. We argued about this much because she would not let me see texts. She had always given me pre-eminence in our relationship and did not want me to know she was talking to another individual for help. She was also seeing a therapist and strongly entreated me to go with her, but I refused. Our problems, I thought I could handle.

The second guy she was texting (video guy) I thought was the same man (from CA) and that she had started up again. There were a lot of other terrible things going on in our marriage at that time and I was like the ostrich and did not even see the problems I was causing. I definitely did not realize that I was the problem. But I was.

Immediately I fired the associate in CA and ordered her to break all contact with him forever. This is when all hell broke loose. Wishes is a very delicate, gentle soul unless she starts sensing mistreatment or abuse, and then the gloves come off.

I found out later that she had not stopped texting this new guy, but on the contrary took it underground. Since I had already fired the associate in CA, Wishes saw no need to inform me that this new guy was not him.

I found out about the PA when I discovered Wishes had been seen entering into a motel. A friend of mine made the call and although he had seen Wishes he never saw the man she was there to meet. Again, I assumed it was the man she had been texting who I had assumed was the man from CA and did not know any different until later.

Once I discovered the real truth, it did not make a whole lot of difference to me at the time because she still cheated on me. It was only after reading TAM, and watching her protect me, and see the treatment she was getting there, did it really hit me as to what I had done. The same horrible treatment she was getting there was nothing compared to what I had been doing to her for over a year. I could say a lot of bad things about some of the posters on TAM but I will save those judgments for myself.

I was very wrong. I came forward because I really believe Wishes will go down in flames rather than tell what really happened. If she does not open up, she is only going to be hurt again. I am still holding my breath, waiting for that one to come out. When it does, if it does, my one and only defense is that I'm a guy. I would do everything so much different if I had it to do over. I nuked our life together. It was me.

I was warned of my anger many, many times on this forum but l loved it, I nursed it, it gave me power and strength to go on. It was the one passion that kept me from feeling other passions, however, by holding on to that anger, it totally clouded my vision and I had no perception of reality.

Is this an excuse? No it is not.

antlered

Alrighty DG here's a bro-hug for ya: ((DoneGone))

And yes, yes it was 100% platonic

I had dropped your story during the 'password impasse' period, but have since picked it up and also the thread on TAM as well.

Now I can state my opinion that neither of you seem happy, and that both of you would be better off having had some real IC for some time before ever considering dating anyone, especially one-another. I waited a year before dating (with IC) to get myself together before dating (25 year relationship before D), and IMO it made a world of difference. Anyway that's my opinion, blah, blah, right?

DoneGone to move forward the question you must ask yourself questions like this:

What, in the realm of probable possibility, do I want? How do I go about getting it? Do I have what it takes to accomplish this and if not, how would I go about getting those skills?

Bro-hugs are good. I am in a new place. I got here by reading her thread on TAM. I woke up. I was shamed, saddened and actually humbled.

That little 5'2" woman taking a beating for me. I know others may not read it that way, but I do.

Where does this go? I don't know. Immediately upon reading her thread I called and asked for her forgiveness, and got it immediately. I have reflected much over the last week and I am not quite the man I thought I was. I lost myself along the way and now I am going to try and get me back and that will never happen as long as I leave Wishes out there flopping in the wind.

I thought her associate in CA was more than just a friend because she would text him at all hours and hide her phone. I found only when getting copies of her texts that her conversations with him were concerning problems in our marriage and he was giving her good, very good counsel. She did not want me to see texts for fear of making things worse between us.

My anger took control and yes, this is when she said I was crazy to think there could be something between her and her associate. We argued about this much because she would not let me see texts. She had always given me pre-eminence in our relationship and did not want me to know she was talking to another individual for help. She was also seeing a therapist and strongly entreated me to go with her, but I refused. Our problems, I thought I could handle.

The second guy she was texting (video guy) I thought was the same man (from CA) and that she had started up again. There were a lot of other terrible things going on in our marriage at that time and I was like the ostrich and did not even see the problems I was causing. I definitely did not realize that I was the problem. But I was.

Your last post only proves that it is your wife that is an expert abuser and a cheater. Your wife cheated with the first guy (EA) violating the boundaries of your marriage (inappropriately discussing her marriage with him)not because she wanted advice and the other man wanted the same but because they were deep in an emotional affair and wanted to turn it most probably into a physical one. You busted them and got angry which is most natural for every betrayed spouse. Instead of stopping her affair your ex gas lighted you, made you to believe you are crazy and angrily escalated her affair. On her thread on TAM she also straightforwardly admitted that it was not the sex but the manipulation, power and control that were the main incentive of her behavior. Her continuing to lie and gaslight you made you to believe that it was the same man yet in fact it is irrelevant who it was as her continuing deceit made it possible for you to make those mistakes. And your rationalization of taking the gloves off only show how vile her conduct was and what a vindictive kind of person she is. Yet, her vindictiveness is not the result of your abuse but you busting her and preventing her affairs. Your last post only proves again that the guys on TAM busted very fast her bullshit and in fact were very gentle with her

[This message edited by MrSpock at 2:50 PM, March 26th (Saturday)]

If you wish to protect her from abusers, including yourself, then I'm certain you have severed ties with OMW, since she not only desires to abuse your wife, but involve your daughters in the abuse.

My concern is that your female picker has been damaged, if you are still hanging out with her in any way shape or form after she involved your daughters in these infidelity-related discussion boards.

MrSpock

Your last post only proves that it is your wife that is an expert abuser and a cheater. Your wife cheated with the first guy (EA) violating the boundaries of your marriage (inappropriately discussing her marriage with him)not because she wanted advice and the other man wanted the same but because they were deep in an emotional affair and wanted to turn it most probably into a physical one. You busted them and got angry which is most natural for every betrayed spouse. Instead of stopping her affair your ex gas lighted you, made you to believe you are crazy and angrily escalated her affair. On her thread on TAM she also straightforwardly admitted that it was not the sex but the manipulation, power and control that were the main incentive of her behavior. Her continuing to lie and gaslight you made you to believe that it was the same man yet in fact it is irrelevant who it was as her continuing deceit made it possible for you to make those mistakes. And your rationalization of taking the gloves off only show how vile her conduct was and what a vindictive kind of person she is. Yet, her vindictiveness is not the result of your abuse but you busting her and preventing her affairs. Your last post only proves again that the guys on TAM busted very fast her bullshit and in fact were very gentle with her

Like I said, other's may not read it like I do.

k8la

If you wish to protect her from abusers, including yourself, then I'm certain you have severed ties with OMW, since she not only desires to abuse your wife, but involve your daughters in the abuse.

My concern is that your female picker has been damaged, if you are still hanging out with her in any way shape or form after she involved your daughters in these infidelity-related discussion boards.

I had broken it off with her a month ago but was still hanging out from time to time. After reading Wishes thread last week, I broke it off for good. Too little to late.

MrSpock

Your last post only proves again that the guys on TAM busted very fast her bullshit and in fact were very gentle with her

I was not speaking of everybody on TAM. I have already said that I think she has gotten a very good care there, however, I am talking about the 'assholes' on TAM who wanted to stomp, stomp, stomp her until they had vented all their own rage. This was just a small percentage. I only wanted Wishes here because of the Wayward forum but I cannot speak for her.

Also, we disagree on something else. Ok, I have only read the entire thread once, what I see is not the people of TAM busting her bullshit, because, there has been no bullshit. What I can say however, is that there were those who patiently waited her out, did not abuse her and let her know that there had to be more to her story.

This is why I am posting.

[This message edited by DoneGone at 3:25 PM, March 26th (Saturday)]

I'm shocked that you read the TAM stuff as so abusive and awful that you came to HER to apologize. Maybe you don't spend much time out on the web but that was tame, my friend. Very very tame. And then she continues to post there seriously offering up NOTHING of substance but flirts with posters, attempts to out-intellect the posters but all of it was just psycho babble nonsense with big words, and then accuses everyone of beating her up and she makes herself out to be the victim. Seriously, it was just a ridiculous read.

Add me to the list of people that believes that she posted that for you to read. And she wasn't protecting you at all. She didn't share anything about anything. And she's getting exactly what she wants. You're now tripping over yourself to go get coffee or a glass of wine and she's turning you down.

I don't know what the truth is here. You continue to allude to something that you won't share. I don't know if you actually went to any counseling sessions. What I do know is that there is some serious denial and co-dependency that clearly stems from before the affair.

I will say that I don't think this was her first rodeo. When she posted that you're a big dumbo about her, my first thought is that you've been played before. She's very VERY good at gaslighting and manipulating. I hope you both pursue IC alone.

Alaska77

I'm shocked that you read the TAM stuff as so abusive and awful that you came to HER to apologize. Maybe you don't spend much time out on the web but that was tame, my friend. Very very tame. And then she continues to post there seriously offering up NOTHING of substance but flirts with posters, attempts to out-intellect the posters but all of it was just psycho babble nonsense with big words, and then accuses everyone of beating her up and she makes herself out to be the victim. Seriously, it was just a ridiculous read.

Add me to the list of people that believes that she posted that for you to read. And she wasn't protecting you at all. She didn't share anything about anything. And she's getting exactly what she wants. You're now tripping over yourself to go get coffee or a glass of wine and she's turning you down.

I don't know what the truth is here. You continue to allude to something that you won't share. I don't know if you actually went to any counseling sessions. What I do know is that there is some serious denial and co-dependency that clearly stems from before the affair.

I will say that I don't think this was her first rodeo. When she posted that you're a big dumbo about her, my first thought is that you've been played before. She's very VERY good at gaslighting and manipulating. I hope you both pursue IC alone.

I did read "some" of the TAM stuff as abusive and awful, not all "as you seem to suggest." See how easy it is to play with the facts. I am not suggesting that you are intentionally doing so, however, I have said several times, by and far, her treatment on TAM has been ok.

Five things: (1) By some chance, are you angered because you are one of "those" posters on TAM? (2) Your post here is patterned after some of the abuse she has been receiving on TAM and (3) Why are you so angry?, It is quite obvious that perhaps "you've been played before." (4) Why does it bother you so much that I apologized to Wishes? (5) How rude, crude and lewd for you to accuse her previous indiscretions.

[This message edited by DoneGone at 4:01 PM, March 26th (Saturday)]

DoneGone

Where does this go? I don't know. Immediately upon reading her thread I called and asked for her forgiveness, and got it immediately. I have reflected much over the last week and I am not quite the man I thought I was. I lost myself along the way and now I am going to try and get me back and that will never happen as long as I leave Wishes out there flopping in the wind.

i.e. Knight In Shining Armor

Her stated objective is to get you back and it's working. She's very intelligent. She's also a survivor, and, quite frankly, tougher than you are. No you will not see this, and quite frankly it's fine with me if you get back together. HOWEVER, I stand by my initial assertion:

neither of you seem happy, and that both of you would be better off having had some real IC for some time before ever considering dating anyone, especially one-another.

She, and you to a smaller extent, will manipulate to get needed validation and structure from outside. Good luck with that since it's obvious you're going back in. Get some individual therapy for yourselves. Please. What you both have going on is outside the capacity of untrained but well-meaning internet strangers to address.

[This message edited by antlered at 4:08 PM, March 26th (Saturday)]

DG,

Have you thought about picking up a copy of No More Mr. Nice Guy? Or talk to your IC about codependency? It may seem counter intuitive but I find a lot of your statements involving your contribution to the M very concerning.

She did not want me to see texts for fear of making things worse between us.

This is where she is 100% wrong. She orchestrated this problem by keeping secrets. It doesn't matter that there was nothing inappropriate in her texts (which I don't entirely buy by the way), it matters that she hid them. It's no wonder you thought it was the same guy or something to worry about! She did nothing to dispel that notion. Imagine if she showed you the texts as soon as you accused her. Then none of the aftermath of that argument would have happened. Showing the texts is what a safe partner does and she has proven she was not being a safe partner to you. There's a saying on SI that is useful for gauging whether a relationship is inappropriate to the M: If there is any contact that would not happen if your spouse is standing right next to you, it's inappropriate. The fact that she wouldn't show you the texts mean that their relationship, no matter what happened or didn't, was inappropriate and harmful to your M. It sounds like an EA that could have turned PA in the future.

I nuked our life together. It was me.

No! No you did not. Your XWW did by keeping secrets and having an A. You have said before that because you shut down her relationship with her friend (who I consider an OM she has an EA with) that she ran into the arms of the OM and that is just not true. You did not force her to lie, gaslight, and turn it into a PA after that confrontation. You did what was best for the M at the time by standing up for yourself and asking her to respect the M by ending the EA - one that would make just about any married man uncomfortable family friend or not! SHE nuked it and you did what was advised to you and got a D.

Taking the blame just to appease her or get her back will not work out for you. It's called "nicing" her back and I recommend you read threads of SIers who've tried. It doesn't work out well. She admits that despite a year of therapy, she doesn't know why she cheated. She has very poor boundaries demonstrated by her flirting on TAM. She admits she hasn't been working on herself and that she'll turn the focus on her after she helps you heal. There will be no healing the relationship until she can take full responsibility, stop blaming you for her bad choices, and works on herself. She is not a good candidate for R as she is right now.

No, I'm not on TAM. I had never heard of it before you posted about it.

I think you played with the facts. And that does make me angry. I feel like you manipulated people. It's frustrating to read very detailed posts about what happened at your MC appointments but then she states that you never attended any at all. I guess one of you is lying. But why?

I'm not angry that you apologized. I just don't understand it. I don't understand how this could have happened in your marriage, then she posts about it and now you're trying to ask forgiveness because people called her out on stuff. You didn't cheat.

Look, reading the text exchange between her and OM was one of the most painful things I've read here. Then hearing about how she involved your kids and manipulated them killed me because my parents divorced over an affair when I was 11. Perhaps you have the whole truth. As you well know, that's one thing BSs never really get - the absolute certainty that we know it all.

As I've said, you've made your decision pretty clear. And I wish you all the best. I won't post on any of your posts here again. And I never did and never will post on TAM.

I must say that I read your original posts and now this one. I did not know anything about your wife's posts until you revealed it here (along with her name.) I must say that I am very taken aback with your response to the posters who have taken their time to give advice to what is clearly, a manipulative, unremorseful wayward spouse. I don't believe it is okay to impugn the integrity of posters who are responding to your and now your ex'wife's postings (on the other site). I don't think the posters are trolls or however they are being labeled. BS are genuinely hurt by infidelity and it is out of the kindness of their hearts that they reach out and try to help others whom they perceive as feeling what is one of the most traumatic experiences of their lives.

If you believe it is you and your ex against the rest of the big bad world then so sorry to have bothered to offer an opinion.

But it should be remembered this is not a game. BS are genuinely hurt and it's a shame they should be disparaged for just offering their opinions, which are not unsolicited.

For all it is worth, your ex-wife (after reading her responses) is not remorseful and is very manipulative. Perhaps, you are now making excuses for her for reasons that you know; it has been suggested over on the other site that she is playing a game: eliciting sympathy for supposedly being attacked so you can ride in to rescue her. I would hope we are not all being played for fools.

Alaska77

It's frustrating to read very detailed posts about what happened at your MC appointments but then she states that you never attended any at all. I guess one of you is lying. But why?

I can help you there. I believe what she stated in her post is that she could not get me to go to counselling with her the year before her adultery. I would not go with her. After the adultery, I did go to counselling sessions with her. She asked for three, I went three times, then my daughters, who are adults, asked me to continue and I think I went 2 more times.

Thank you for clarifying. I really am stepping away.

I truly hope you find peace with this situation. That's what I hope for all of us here. I'm sending you a virtual hug and one to your XWW too. May we all learn and grow and find happiness again.

Biggestmistake

I must say that I read your original posts and now this one. I did not know anything about your wife's posts until you revealed it here (along with her name.) I must say that I am very taken aback with your response to the posters who have taken their time to give advice to what is clearly, a manipulative, unremorseful wayward spouse. I don't believe it is okay to impugn the integrity of posters who are responding to your and now your ex'wife's postings (on the other site). I don't think the posters are trolls or however they are being labeled. BS are genuinely hurt by infidelity and it is out of the kindness of their hearts that they reach out and try to help others whom they perceive as feeling what is one of the most traumatic experiences of their lives.

If you believe it is you and your ex against the rest of the big bad world then so sorry to have bothered to offer an opinion.

But it should be remembered this is not a game. BS are genuinely hurt and it's a shame they should be disparaged for just offering their opinions, which are not unsolicited.

For all it is worth, your ex-wife (after reading her responses) is not remorseful and is very manipulative. Perhaps, you are now making excuses for her for reasons that you know; it has been suggested over on the other site that she is playing a game: eliciting sympathy for supposedly being attacked so you can ride in to rescue her. I would hope we are not all being played for fools.

Biggestmistake, I came here for one reason. to let Wishes know that it is ok for her to talk her heart out. If she decides to come to the Wayward forum here, that's ok, if she decides not to, that's ok also.

I understood the fallout before I did this. I knew it would be accepted by some, and not by others. I thought about it for a week before realizing it was something I needed to do

Alaska77

Thank you for clarifying. I really am stepping away.

I truly hope you find peace with this situation. That's what I hope for all of us here. I'm sending you a virtual hug and one to your XWW too. May we all learn and grow and find happiness again.

Thank-you Alaska77. "virtual hug" that means we're still friends. good.

The truth is I read some of your ex-wife's responses on the other forum. She relayed a lovely memory of how you were with her after she gave birth to your first child. You sound like an amazing man, very kind and very loving. It saddened me greatly that your devotion was met with such pain and unfaithfulness. No one can truly understand what lies between two people. You love your ex-wife. You jump to her rescue. You don't stop loving someone after they have hurt you, especially if you truly loved them. I know this feeling. I loved my ex-husband very much, dedicated myself to him; never thought he would hurt me this way. There are things that happen that makes it impossible to go back; yet, sometimes the heart still hopes.

DG, the fallout is brutal, as you know. No one judges you. We are all still hoping for the best for you. You sound like a good man and a good husband (from your ex-wife's postings). You deserve goodness in return.