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To be very blunt, you need to be able to have sex with your wife and do the same things your wife let the OM do. Otherwise, if she denies that, you will resent her forever.

She also needs to explain this need to please the OM. For what reason. Low self esteem and she felt the need to be his toy...sounds like past sexual issues like childhood sexual abuse. Why would she ever feel the need to do things she never did before.

There are signs here that she has some mental issues from the past. Do you know of anything like CSA in her past?

Also, is she still seeing this guy at this gym. If she really felt so bad, she would never have gone back to that gym, yet she did.

She has a lot more to answer.

My wife said she said yes because she wanted to please the AP.

Bedman

I believe this as far as it goes. She could take you for granted because you’re so nice and responsible by nature. The OM needed to be kept interested. Plus anything she did with the OM was bad by definition because it was an affair. Lines had already been crossed.

Other factors were that she was playing the role of “good girl” wife and mother with you and was a “bad girl” with the OM. She didn’t have to look at him across the kitchen table or at church. Sometimes the fun of finally being a “bad girl” once in your life is a major inducement for having an affair. You let your dark side out to play.

My guess is that she will be reluctant to do those things with you or at least be somewhat inhibited. This is because you are part of her world where she’s good. She will not want to mix the two worlds.

A friend of mine told me that he couldn’t make love to his wife after her affair. In order to have sex he had to debase her and fu@k her like a wh@re. I could see this happening to you.

The way I see it you know too much to R. You’re in shock and may be able to fake it on autopilot for a few years but the acid will eat through someday. The best thing to do would be to divorce now.

If you have practical reasons why you can’t (financial, young kids, ect.) then I would still divorce her and live together. This will help you R in my opinion.

What drives people crazy is when it appears that their WS paid no price for the affair. They’re happy and are exactly in the same place they would have been if they had not cheated. At the very least downgrade her to girlfriend and put her on probation.

[This message edited by Graywolf at 3:32 AM, July 8th (Friday)]

Bedman, have you refused the same acts she did with other man? Did she enjoy those things you mentioned? The statement she said about the pineapple juice makes it sound like it was enjoyable, not at all like she didn't enjoy it.

Have you been with your wife intimately since you found out about the affair?

Does your wife go back to the same gym with the other man since you confronted and, if so, how do you feel about it?

I agree with Graywolf

Bedman, have you refused the same acts she did with other man? Did she enjoy those things you mentioned? The statement she said about the pineapple juice makes it sound like it was enjoyable, not at all like she didn't enjoy it.

wk55hn

I agree. Just writing about it in such detail indicates that she was into it. It’s like making a photo album of an event. She was celebrating letting her bad girl out.

Look at this link from a guy that has been trying to R for five years:

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=586087&HL=51519

His wife is very remorseful. Your wife isn't at all.

[This message edited by Graywolf at 3:42 AM, July 8th (Friday)]

I believe this as far as it goes. She could take you for granted because you’re so nice and responsible by nature. The OM needed to be kept interested. Plus anything she did with the OM was bad by definition because it was an affair. Lines had already been crossed.

Other factors were that she was playing the role of “good girl” wife and mother with you and was a “bad girl” with the OM. She didn’t have to look at him across the kitchen table or at church. Sometimes the fun of finally being a “bad girl” once in your life is a major inducement for having an affair. You let your dark side out to play.

This is exactly the situation. Can you spell out the implications that you are insinuating.

This is a letter I plan to give my wife:

For me to move past these challenges, I need you to be sensitive to things that remind me of your affair, triggers as they say. I can be in an okay frame of mind one minute and the next something has reminded me of the meeting places in ********* you use to go to have sex with him and that you gave him a blow job in my new car. There are many reminders, as I have tried to give you insight into them over the past few days. These reminders hit me with debilitating panic and anxiety similar to how I felt when I first discovered your affair with him. I need you to acknowledge and have empathy to the emotional impact the aftermath of your affair has created for me.

There other things I need from you. It hurts me that you think of some of these requests as trying to control you. I see them as actions that prove you want this marriage, that you are selfless, humble and contrite in this horrible thing you have done to me. If you place conditions on what you are willing to do, I assume you really don’t want me and this marriage. Simply telling me you are remorseful and want to be with me is not enough. These items are not a matter of control, they are ways that you can prove to me how much you value me and our marriage. I recognize I am asking a lot. I will also tell you what I am willing to do for you.

What I need from you to move forward in our marriage:

1) Continue Individual counseling using the money you made while spending time with him and his family. We will need to sit down and calculate how much money this was.

2) Not wear your hair in a side braid.

3) Give me all of your ‘artsy’ sweatshirts, plus any item of clothing that has a motivational quote in large print (including tank tops), so I can get rid of them. You regularly wore sweatshirts when you were with him. Most of these sweatshirts were purchased at best friends clothing store. You know how I feel about her.

4) Not remind me of the following:

• That it could be worse and you could still want to be with him and not be willing to work on the marriage. That you might not be here. I have not reminded you that it could be worse for you, that I could have broken off our marriage the moment I discovered the affair. This is disrespectful to me.

• That you ONLY had sex with him 8-10 times. Again this is disrespectful. Clearly you would have slept with him more if his schedule and libido offered more encounters or your menstrual cycle didn’t get in the way. The affair would have gone on with OBS and kids now out of the house. You were going to sleep with him a lot more times. Giving blow jobs, hand jobs, kissing and sexting is no less. There were plenty of times you were all revved up for a sexual meeting with him only to have him cancel the meeting. You wanted it to be more and were looking to finally get him into his bed. You minimize what you did to your good friend OBS and your family

• That he was nice to you, that you liked him, that he smelled better than me, that he was in better shape than me, that you liked his chest and arm muscles. I don’t need to be reminded that you admire him.

• That the reason you decided to betray your friendship with OBS was because she didn’t want him anymore. You continue to say this despite it being a lie. You were emotionally and sexually involved with him long before you were aware their marriage was in trouble. This makes me question if you are actually taking ownership of what you did or if you are still in denial about some of the aspects of your affair. It also reminds me that you sugar coated the affair in the immediate weeks after I discovered the affair. Again this is disrespectful to me and OBS. I remember that you told OBS that nothing happened between you and him until after she move out in April, 4 months after you started having sex with him. These things make me question your true remorse, your true desire to make amends. I just learned yesterday that you’ve had an attraction to him for years ever since your friendship with OBS began 4-5 years ago.

• That you decided to betray me and the boys because the previous 13 years of our marriage were difficult and that I am a difficult person to live with. You had other choices, but took the cowards route. You are not the easiest person to live with either. That’s part of what marriage is about, working through difficulties. Its not an injustice to you. The decision to betray me and the boys was the same as your decision to betray the OBS, you just simply decided you wanted to be with him. All of these other explanations are insulting and lies. You wanted to be a bad girl, selfish, sow your wild oats, explore your new found sexuality with someone that could bring that out in you.

5) Touch me more, continue to have regular sex

6) Keep our bedroom a sanctuary as best as possible for only us to be intimate and have private conversations

7) Apologize in front of me to my mother, father, step mother, brothers, your family.

8) Apologize to OBS in writing allowing me to see the letter before you send it.

9) Apologize more to me. Any moment of silence between us to be filled with an apology from you. You cannot apologize too much.

10) Be sensitive to anything that might trigger a memory for me of your affair. Actively inquire about, remove the trigger and apologize for the horrible memory your affair created for me.

11) Stop speaking with anyone that you discussed your relationship with him prior to my discovery that wasn’t critical of you. This includes 5 friends...

12) Unfriend 5 friends from Facebook

13) Unsubscribe to the ***** email and facebook notification

14) Be open to a rational calm discussion about you quitting your job with ****** in the next 12-18 months.

15) Be open to a rational calm discussion about moving to a different part of the city in the next 12-18 months

16) To not discuss any details of what is going on in our relationship including this letter and these requests with anyone else but myself or a counselor without discussing it with me first.

17) Tell me about all conversations you have one on one with any male shortly after they happen.

18) Tell me immediately once you start having feelings for another male.

19) No flirting with any man. No texting any man. No training any man one on one. No calling any man without discussing with me first.

Does this go far enough? I have not been a saint either, should I provide a list of what I am willing to do as well?

[This message edited by bedman at 2:19 PM, July 8th (Friday)]

It sounds like your WW letting her bad girl out makes my situation more challenging. Can someone please clarify?

A couple of clarifications. My wife works at the gym. Yes we have been having lots of sex. I haven't asked her to do the same things she did with the AP yet. Shes indicated shes open to experimenting with me and exploring new sexual experiences with me. The AP isnt a member of the gym and wont be visiting. OBS and best friend are still members. its a big gym, community rec centre. My wife is a personal trainer. That might fill in some of the blanks. She met AP personal training him at home. She met OBS at the gym who recommended her to PT her husband.

My wife does not have sexual abuse in her past. She has very low self esteem and her AP smothered her with compliments. How hot she was how great her ass was how she was good at her job how she was caring etc. You name it he complimented her on it. Coupled with this is that in her mind this guy is an afficianoda of women (this will go unexplained for now) and confident and successful and good lookin and always talong giving her sizeable monetary gifts 100's of dollars on several occasions on top of her regular PT rate. Her best friend her mother died in July last year and my wife attributes her sadness depression around this to why she felt entitled to the affair.

She also says she has never felt beautiful and her AP made her feel this way.

It always amazes me when a person in a 13 year relationship with Someone they can trust to be there for them, a family, etc. is willing to throw it all away because someone with a silk tongue and a few bucks comes alone.. I guess if predators were easy to see they wouldn't get much to eat..

She also says she has never felt beautiful and her AP made her feel this way.

Typical Cheaterspeak. Nothing unusual here.

Lie, hide, deny, blameshifting is a cheaters mantra.

You made her have the affair?????? Oh, she has issues too, everyone does. Did you cheat?

Not remind me of the following:

• That it could be worse and you could still want to be with him and not be willing to work on the marriage. That you might not be here. I have not reminded you that it could be worse for you, that I could have broken off our marriage the moment I discovered the affair. This is disrespectful to me.

• That you ONLY had sex with him 8-10 times. Again this is disrespectful. Clearly you would have slept with him more if his schedule and libido offered more encounters or your menstrual cycle didn’t get in the way. The affair would have gone on with OBS and kids now out of the house. You were going to sleep with him a lot more times. Giving blow jobs, hand jobs, kissing and sexting is no less. There were plenty of times you were all revved up for a sexual meeting with him only to have him cancel the meeting. You wanted it to be more and were looking to finally get him into his bed. You minimize what you did to your good friend OBS and your family

• That he was nice to you, that you liked him, that he smelled better than me, that he was in better shape than me, that you liked his chest and arm muscles. I don’t need to be reminded that you admire him.

If your WW is still in the mindset that allows her to say things like what's quoted above to you, you are not in real R in my opinion. This minimizing, deflecting and blame shifting are all giant red flags after she has seen how her A affected you with her own eyes. There is no empathy there. It screams get over it already, and just be happy I stayed. You can not R from that position. Under the best of circumstances (a truly remorseful and committed WS and a totally committed BS), R is very difficult. It will test you to your very core. If your letter reflects your current circumstances, then I think that makes genuine R next to impossible. A WS who whimsically reminds their BS how "awesome" their AP is/was is not a candidate for R. Good luck.

I agree this is not R.

I need to move towards divorce then?

Is waiting to see if she changes her approach a waste of time. Do I even ask her for anything? I am confused with what you think I need to do.

I have 3 young boys to think of. Can I influence a real R?

Bedman, I think you are in a good trajectory to reconcile. Your wife is doing what you ask of her.

Me, personally, I could not accept her staying in the gym. Or being involved with any person who knew and did not discourage it. Even if incidental or infrequent. But it must be acceptable to you.

Usually a personal trainer is considered attractive - at least in shape. Really, no one ever told her she has a nice ass, or looks pretty? I put little emphasis on that - it looks like a minor factor. The overwhelming attention, it actually would make me question it even more. I know my wife has thought that when a guy has been over the top. I find it discouraging that she is so easily tricked. Oohh - a guy would give me compliments and gifts to get in her pants - who woulda thunk it?

Also, there was a real lacking in even letting the guy get that far. I would think being a personal trainer would be one of the toughest jobs for a person who has bad boundaries, because it requires a level of close physical touching with another, and you must to some degree be able to say "no" but not get the reputation of impersonal and rigid.

How long has your wife been a personal trainer?

I do see she is trying, which is huge.

You ask for whatever you want. If the guy has big arms, and you ask what did she find attractive, and she ways his big arms, you are just asking for it.

The minimizations, only 8 times, that is every cheater initially. You have to set her straight. After she hears that a couple of times, she should realize how foolish she sounds and how insulting to you.

I had all of my wife's messages, so I knew what she thought about other man. She admired him. To me, it was obvious he was a loser. For example, she thought he was very "honorable." Because he would spin tales of how he did this or how he said that. I had to tell my wife, the gut was unemployed, he has to sneak in another room to deceive his wife, who has been supporting him for 3 years - how is this "honorable"? My wife I believe is a good woman, I know her most of my life, your wife seens to know right from wrong. But the cheating, they went off the rails somehow. They have to find out how and why. You might need her to see the reality as opposed to what her perception was. Too bad they didn't see it themselves.

But you also have to ask for what you want. It won't work if you're putting up with stuff that bothers you. Let her know and let her try to help.

By the way, "R" sucks big time for a long time.

Did you give her the letter?

If you have legitimate faults, you tell her you will do your best to fix them.

I am not a fan of the letters without you being present for her to read it. I don't like the "vibe" of handing the letter and walking away for her to read, like you can't face up to her. That's my preference. Give her the letter, but ask her to read it in front of you.

She has taken advantage of you so far due to your giving nature, but that is typical, for the cheater to take advantage, minimize. They really believe it themselves, they look at only some of the facts and and circumstances that make it not so bad, and ignore the part that makes it a really bad thing. You let it linger, so this is what happens. I had some similar requests that you have, like get rid of some Facebook friends, for example. My wife said, "but these are my good friends, they weren't involved." If I had not said no, she probably still would be friends with them now. I told my wife this the same night I confronted. I added anything afterwards that bothered me. My list initially was shorter than yours, it grew a little as it went, but like yours, most were really nothing - not discuss this with other people, for example - does that even need to be said, is that really hard to live up to.

I didn't write down the list, just said it. And I asked, but she knew my personality is not so giving when it's gone too far, I'm usually done for good, so she knew without me having to say much of "what else." That's more about how I was forever, I am easygoing until you push me too far, then I'm your worst enemy. And I never said much, I only asked once, even with the kids, I didn't expect to have to keep reminding people of what they darn well know what they have to do. She knew me of that. Your own personality will play into it. I was extremely easygoing, my outlook was that if it was not morally wrong and would not hurt you, it was OK with me.

But I like your letter, and your wife does look like she is coming around. You need to guide this project until she figures out, which once you give good instructions, she should understand and be able to figure it out on her own. I never did anything with her that I considered punitive, I never yelled at her or called her names, even when I confronted her, and everything I asked of her was because it hurt me, triggered me, etc. I told her that. I wanted to punish her and hurt her, but I never did it. The worst I did I think was I would read aloud with her the messages between her and him. Maybe a couple-few times I did that. She would question and try to negotiate "why" with some of the things, only initially, after that she understood why. She didn't like it sometimes, and thought I was too sensitive. My wife did what I asked from the beginning, and I think she understood where I was coming from in a couple of days.

I give my story here because it worked for me. Your wife and you are going to have a different history, different personality, but hopefully not so different that it won't help you a little to see.

The reconciliation is painful. I never told my wife I was about to leave, but I was about to leave on and off for a while. Through really nothing that she did or didn't do in the reconciliation, but just the affair itself and the shit that went on in my head.

I monitored her accounts for about 2 weeks, she didn't care, but it was exhausting and I felt so weak and impotent, here I was checking my wife's accounts to make sure she wasn't fucking another man. I couldn't do it. So I just stopped. I figured I knew what an affair looked like, I would see it sooner or later if she had another one.

I could never have stayed if she was a personal trainer. That's me. To me, a gym can be a dating club. A lot of people go there for as much of that reason as working out. That's my opinion based on the gyms I've been in. Two of my friends met their future wives in gyms. That is your cross to bear and it is your decision whether or how to do it.

I really wanted my family, but my wife knew I could not live a certain way. Everything I did before the affair was for my family, she knew that, but I could not put up with any disrespect, and she knew that, too. I'm glad you put that in the letter.

I agree this is not R.

I need to move towards divorce then?

Is waiting to see if she changes her approach a waste of time. Do I even ask her for anything? I am confused with what you think I need to do.

I have 3 young boys to think of. Can I influence a real R?

Successful R takes 2 committed people bedman. You can want to R all you like, but if your WW is just going through the motions to keep the peace, all your efforts will be for nothing.

I don't need to tell you this, but R comes with a price. You must determine for yourself whether the price in your own particular case is worth the reward. No one can really tell you what to do bedman. Any decision you reach must be yours alone. A BS must balance their desire for R with their reality.

Waiting to see if your WW's approach will change is a risky strategy because it risks normalizing her current behavior. If your WW believes she can behave a certain way towards you without any real consequences, then she has no real impetus to change that behavior. The longer that callous behavior is normalized, the harder it is to change down the line. Better to nip it in the bud before its roots grow deeper. The only way to do that really is to make that type of behavior come with a price. What that price is though is for you to decide.

My fear for you is this. Waking up one day x amount of years from today and suddenly realizing that her behavior did not change at all. You will be in a situation where you spent x amount of years trying your heart out to R only to realize that you were wasting your time. Time is our most precious commodity.

You foreclose that possibility of wasting years right now. Lay out your terms without promises. Sit your WW down, and calmly explain to your wife what you need in order to consider R. The ball is in her court then. She can either work with you on giving you what you need or she can choose not to. Those really are the only options. You then decide what is best for you.

Children will always complicate situations like these. However, they will be better off in a happy home/s (even if it is in separated homes) than they will be in an unhappy household where mom and dad's relationship is an unhealthy one. Children pick up on that and model their future relationships on what they experienced growing up.