SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

((((TOC)))) Stand. Your. Ground. You are a rock star, even though it doesn't feel like it now.

Do you really believe that the next person that comes along will not be capable of cheating too?

Yes, relationships are a risk. The only thing we can do is set expectations and deliver consequences if an agreement is broken, and those consequences may be the termination of the relationship.

Everyone of us has it in us to cheat.

Sorry, but that is just flat out wrong. I understand that for some people there could be a perfect storm of events that will result in betrayal, but it's not everyone. Some people are honest and loyal their whole lives despite what events may arise.

(((TOC)))

It's ironic that your WH asks if he's not worth another chance when he didn't think your marriage was worth fidelity.

Any interactions you have with him are going to be painful for you, IMO he's regretful, but not remorseful, at least not yet.

I feel for you. My D day was opening a burner phone my wife had and discovering texts to the OM of the hotel room number and him replying how amazing it was. And, her telling him how lucky she is. To this day the thought of it makes me sick.

I DO NOT believe that a man who knows of your past history (of being devastated by cheating) and then chooses to cheat for MONTHS actually loves you.

My husband knew of my past history of being devastated by cheating and he still chose to cheat again. And yet, I still believe he loves me.

Sometimes a person gets inside him or herself and doesn't consider consequences to the detriment of those around them and themselves. An affair has addictive properties in the brain that give a huge endorphin payout (much like a drug) that entice the person in the affair to disregard the logical brain. It's not an excuse. It's just what happens.

My personal feeling is that, because of the work he's done on his boundaries, his ego issues, his need for external validation, and his need to be the knight in shining armor who makes others feel good, my husband may be less at risk for cheating on me now than a stranger who has done no work on himself, does not recognize what weaknesses he may possess (because he isn't looking for them) and goes only by his belief that he would never cheat. If you'd have asked my husband before his affairs, he'd have told you he would never cheat either. Family and friends were as shocked as I was. I gave him two chances because I do believe people are redeemable. (Two because we rugswept the first time which likely led to the second time).

My point is that your husband, TOC, is saying most of the right words. You don't have to give him another chance. You are well within your rights to absolutely walk away without looking back. But you are also well within your rights to consider whether he is willing to do the work on his boundaries, his ego, his need for external validation, and his need to make others feel better (as evidenced by his statement about her hurt and how it continued because of it). With actions to back up his words and with some real work on those areas, he could become a safe partner.

It is a tough burden to shoulder for you both. I know that once I felt true forgiveness for my husband (and for myself for forgiving him), I realized how much damage he'd done to himself by cheating. He became a person he didn't think he could be. It's been a long time and he still sometimes cries and apologizes to me. I don't look for apologies anymore. I know how sorry he is. I wish he could forgive himself the way I have forgiven him. Your husband didn't just hurt you. He hurt himself. Now that he is past his initial arrogance and has given up on his expectation of forgiveness, he may be realizing that. There is a part of me who knows that, as painful as it is to have been betrayed, it must be at least as painful to have to live with knowing that you betrayed the person you love most.

If you divorce him, your husband will have to live with causing the loss of your love. That isn't a reason to stay with him but it is a reason to have compassion for what he will have to live with. You have every right to be angry with him. But know that when you move on, you can do so with a pure heart. He will not be able to do that. He will always know what he did to you whether you stay or go.

As for the dog walker- he should have been honest about the text from the get go. If you decide to give him a chance to do the work and show true remorse, the lying and trickle truth is definitely something he needs to work on. How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair is a good start and Not Just Friends by Dr. Shirley Glass is great for helping you both understand how he crossed the boundaries with the dog walker that led to the affair and why it's crucial that he is transparent and that he develops good boundaries. But if you have no intentions of doing so, I wouldn't give him any more chances to lie. Really, if you aren't going to be together, he is free to talk to whomever he pleases even if you don't like it.

I'm not wavering back and forth here. Your husband was not remorseful at first. I believe he truly did not realize that there would be very real consequences to what he's done. I believe he truly thought "cheating means divorce" were just words with no meaning. He knows otherwise now and that's clear with your phone conversation. I did not think he was reconciliation material before and I'm not saying he is now. I'm saying he may be. It's up to you whether you want to give him the chance. You'll have our support no matter what you decide. And just so you know, whether you reconcile or divorce, you still handled yourself like a rockstar. Whatever happens now does not change how you handled yourself. You are a very strong woman.

I'm pretty sure, your husband meant, what he and you said, that cheating was a deal breaker. I think, he was interpreting this deal breaker in the sense: YOUR cheating is a deal breaker for ME. MY cheating on the other hand, well, let’s try and see… With a little charm and flowers, I should be able to get my foot in the door.

This is probably his way of reasoning. As he said, he wasn’t in touch with the Bitch-Walker, he meant, he didn’t’ initiate the contact/touch. His mind is a one way street, yours however is much more complex landscape.

In any case, hugs from another 53-years old…

[This message edited by bookworm19 at 6:37 AM, October 16th (Sunday)]

As i read your conversation I was SO sad and I felt your pain. Yet I felt his too!!!

So much love wasted !! it is quiet obvious that you both still love each other (to sentimental old me) I know how hurt you both are and your pain is terrible for his betrayal as ALL we the BSs are hurt the same.

I went through hell!! I went from wanting to die to wanting us BOTH to die.

The roller coaster is horrendous and painful yet things CAN get better.

You seem determined to D and if you are certain then do it!!!

Yet take your time ,its a big decision and I feel that we must not jump from the frying pan and into the flames.

I HONESTLY believed I couldn't live with what my FWH did to me and trust me it was TERRIBLE, he carried on the A for 6 months past d day and cried for his AP told me he loved us both!!!

HORRENDOUS!!

Yet 3.5 years later here we are honestly happily in R.

I just didn't think it possible at the time yet slowly and I admit painfully to begin with we found each other again.

I too felt punched in my gut yet tell you that I am happy again now .

I will NEVER understand WHY, I doubt I will ever forget the A yet it no longer pains me .

I hope you do the right thing for YOU.

Your words to WH were so full of pain and yet tinged with love.

NO ONE can give you advice NO ONE can be inside your head.

ALL we SI friends need is support and love.

Good luck TOC I wish and pray for peace to enter your heart and head.

You are handling your WH awesomely!! My WW is protecting the married men she was sexting with. She knows I will confront them and find their wives and disclose the indiscretions to them. That is really hirtful that she is protecting them. Also like you my 1st marriage ended due to my wive cheating. Ny current wife knew how much that hurt me, she knew if she did it would be devastating yet after 19 years together she did it and did it most arrogantly in my face with multiple men.

TOC, you’ve decided with clarity and integrity to your values that this has been a deal breaker for you, and that divorce is the best option for you. Is there any chance you would consider pointing your WH in the direction of SI? Not to lead him on with the possibility of R with you, but so that he can benefit from all the experience from the good folks here on SI, many of whom have been just as selfish and wayward as your WH. He needs help. There is an entire forum devoted to the care and compassionate, yet straightforward, schooling of former waywards, for those in all stages of “the fog”. He needs support as he grieves the loss of you and your marriage, by his own selfish choices. He needs guidance in finding out the answers to his own questions of “Why” and healing from his own huge mess ups. The separation/divorce forum can help him accept the divorce and help him move on from his ruined marriage. Again, not to give him any kind of encouragement that he still has a chance with you, but maybe as a last act of compassion on your part, because you once did love him? Peace, love and light.

crawling, that might not work out so well. We've had cases where the WS gains intel from SI as the BS works their way through the Divorce/Separation forum.

TOC, this is _your_ safe space right now. There is no reason to give that up. His healing is on him. His decisions are his now, as they have been for a long time. If you're NC then _be_ NC.

That's very tough, I know, I didn't do well at it until one day I suddenly... did.

My heart just ached for you reading your post and the contact with your WH. I had tears in my eyes by the end of it. I could so fill your pain and what it did to you. I wished I had a magic wand and could make this all go away for you. I know how it feels to think you have a fantastic marriage one minute and then the next have your life shattered once again by a cheating lying spouse who swore he could never do that after he saw the devastation from your first marriage due to cheating.

All I can say is I hope it gave you a little bit of closure to be able to tell him everything you did. I know it didn't really give you anymore of the answers you were seeking, but hopefully it did give you some closure. I wished I had been able to have that final conversation with XWH#2, but he had a PO against him for assault, so NC was pretty much the norm for us by the final DDay.

You will hear some debate whether he is remorseful or not and whether he should be given a second chance or not. Only you know what you can live with. It doesn't matter what everyone else thinks you should do.

I am also 53yrs old and am D'd from two XWH's. I do have a SO that I met about 6 months ago that never cheated on his wives. His last wife died 4yrs ago and they were happy together. He will never totally have my heart and I am sure I will never totally have his either. We are OK with that for now and I have no plans on changing our

relationship from what it is now. But that is just the way I am handling this new chapter in my life. After living through 2 marriages with broken people I just no longer see the point of the whole marriage/co-habituating with another man. JMO.

The point is, as you already know, only you know what you can live with and no one else's opinions will change that. You will have moments of regret if you choose to D, you know that already. You will have moments that you are glad that you choose to D, you know that also. If you have a change of heart, only you know what you will need to be able to R and that will be your decision too. It isn't fair that we are the one's that have to control the shit storm we never created, but that is often the case with the BS.

I hope whatever you decide that you will be in a better place soon. (((HUGS)))

devotedman- Good point. I wouldn't want TOC to risk her safe place. I hope he finds SI at some point, after the divorce is final when TOC is in the clear. Waywards here on SI are treated with respect and compassion as they seek help and counsel, I see no reason why he shouldn't have that as well if he seeks it, but you're right, timing is important. Continued best wishes to you TOC.

Hi TOC,

I understand your needing to have that conversation with WH, and the raw pain involved.

I have not been in touch with her.

It spoke volumes that he was not forthcoming about the slut contacting him. He has a LONG way to go.

I don't know how it happened.....It was all a mistake.

and then having the nerve to minimize the length of time of the A

Yep, ^^^^right out of the Cheater's Handbook.

Am I not worth even considering trying?

"ME ME ME ME ME, poor ME".

TOC, you are pretty sure that this is a dealbreaker, so keep on with D proceedings. You can always stop it at any time, if WH has an epiphany, you can even remarry.

You don't have to decide today. Focus on your own healing.

((((TOC)))))

That was so painful to read. And so familiar. I think it's unrealistic for a newly BS to go completely NC with a WS. You're still processing and you will for some time to come. Don't beat yourself up about reaching out to him.

The "why" is maddening and his answer now will probably be different from a month from now, from a year from now etc... While he may be feeling the full weight of the consequences of his action and that is painful for him, as well it should be, he's not really doing anything to get to the bottom of what he's done. If he was working hard on himself, through intensive IC and reading books etc... then I'd feel differently. But talk is just that. And the hard and sad truth is, when he really wants to do something he will do it. The A itself proves that. Whoever he wants to parse it, he organised, made time for, planned and executed a sustained affair over a period of time. If he really wants to make amends and figure his shit out, he can get a therapist, see the therapist, ask himself some difficult questions, make progress and insight into that and do the heavy lifting.

The sad thing is, and you've been in this rodeo before, sometimes love just isn't enough. You can love someone and still want to divorce them. You can love someone and still cheat on them. It's not enough to love someone, you have to be able to count on them to have your back and make you the priority you deserve. I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, clearly, but I am validating your decision and feelings.

Just ((((HUGS))))

Lots of stuff for you to read here - lots of different thoughts and opinions.

Take what you need and leave the rest (the SI mantra)...don't feel guilty for what you are doing with YOUR life.

I echo this sentiment -

TOC, you are pretty sure that this is a dealbreaker, so keep on with D proceedings. You can always stop it at any time, if WH has an epiphany, you can even remarry.

You don't have to decide today. Focus on your own healing.

...especially the part where if you were to R after D, you can remarry. Your current M is dead. Mourn the loss as you would with the death of a loved one.

I also agree with the posters who suggested NC. You got a lot out the other day talking to him, and now a scab forms...let it heal.

I'm so very sorry, TOC. My heart breaks for you.

TOC

It ached reading your exchange. I have such respect for you that amidst your heartache, you have decided to follow your values no matter the cost. We all second guess ourselves but at the end of the day, we only see one person in the mirror.

Like you, cheating was a dealbreaker for me (and him, or so I thought). Like you, he knew from the moment we became exclusive that it was a dealbreaker. And like you, I had to decide what my life would look like, and how I would live in my skin if I didn't honour my values.

Be good to yourself. Cry as much as you need to. I know it's hard when others suggest that your decision may be hasty, that he really is sorry. But you are the only one who knows truly in your gut what is the right path.

{{{TOC}}}

How are you TOC? You ok?

All - thank you for the kind words, the support, the advice and for being my shoulders to cry on after the tough weekend. I'm powering through. Saturday was a tough day but I did get out, took a yoga class and then got busy to keep my mind off things. I surrounded myself with friends to keep from wallowing. I shared my previous phone call with them, too, and no one judged me for calling him. They picked apart everything he said, too.

A few other things came out in our phone call that I had forgotten about when I "recorded" our conversation for posterity here and was still very emotionally raw. These popped up when I was talking to my friends.

Of course I asked him when and how he ever saw her, indicating how fooled he had me since I just never picked up on it. He really didn't want to go over that (no surprise) but the way he phrased it was of course he didn't want to hurt me, he didn't want to relive the ugly thoughts attacking his mind about the affair, etc. After some coaxing from me (because evidently I love the pain), he did give up that he took her out on our boat twice. Ugh, so now all I see is them out on the lake having sex on our boat - well, now his boat - because I told him I never wanted to set eyes on it again! I reminded him she had a daughter and wondered where she was in all of this. He said they mostly got together when she was with her grandparents though he also said he took them out together once for pizza. Of course I can't get the image of the happy little family out for dinner together out of my mind. I also can't believe she introduced her little girl to him and that he felt it was in anyway appropriate to meet her!

I asked him how Bob knew. Turns out they were at the grocery store because she was going to make him dinner one night. While checking out, he notices Bob in the lane next to them checking out their groceries including a nice bottle of wine. Bob caught his eye and made sure WH knew he saw what was going on there. Bob left without saying anything but texted him about it later and never let up putting pressure on him. I asked why that didn't shock him into reality and he just had no answer. (I think he was in the love fog!) I reiterated what a fool he was for being so public, told him he likely wanted to get caught - while his excuse was "It's not like I have experience having an affair!" (Well now you do, buddy!)

He said he mostly kept their sex-capades restricted to my travel schedule - except of course on the night I got the fateful text. I asked him why they couldn't wait until I left the next day for their little quickie and, while in full on crying mode, he told me she was going out of town, too, and pressured him to come over to "give her a good send off." (Ah, poor guy! He felt pressured.) Turns out she was going out of town for 2 whole fucking days and couldn't live without his junk for that long. He says now he thinks she was playing the "pick me, pick me" game with him because she was very upset he was going on vacation with me so he caved and rushed to see her. (Clearly, she has very strong feelings for him.)

Well, as they say.....haste makes waste! And the rest is history.

I asked him what he thought when he realized he sent me that text (I can't believe I left this out earlier.) He said it was like he had been hit by lightning and was instantly sick to his stomach and completely panicked. He had to pull over into a parking lot and grasp the reality of what he had done. He said he read it and re-read it trying to think up any other interpretation other than what it said - what to write to me as a follow-up and just stared at his phone waiting for my reply and hoping I took it as playful banter. He felt paralyzed and could think of no reasonable follow-up with me to play it off. He said in his mind now, he thinks he wanted it over. To have it come out. To be done with it. The end of the affair. He didn't call it relief but he said he felt some sense of finality and a lifting of the weight.

He said time stood still.

When he realized the extent of his mistake, he said it shocked him back into reality. He texted her he wasn't coming over. He told her he couldn't talk and would reach out later (because at that moment he said the idea of the affair literally filled him with shame - you know because being caught will do that!) And then he said he deleted all their texts and blocked her. And then he waited for my reply and it never came.

I go back to that moment that evening and can now picture both of us just staring at our phones, not at all fully understanding the ramification of those fateful words. Eight years. Love. Family. Marriage. Happiness. Ever after. Poof. Gone.

He said even in deleting the text from my phone he felt I knew but since I said nothing, he hoped and hoped but he just felt I knew. It was easier to ignore than deal with it and so he ignored it. He said he was blown away by the fact I was able to not say anything at all. Had it been him being betrayed, he would have gone ballistic.

So now he has about 2 weeks to respond to the D papers in his possession or he can not reply at all and it still moves forward.

I have to look for a place to live because I only have this wonderful little bungalow for 2 more weeks. I did speak to my boss who is open about an assignment abroad for me but of course that will take time, including considering what position I would take, getting higher level approval and eventually applying for a work visa, which will be time consuming. Because my life seems day to day right now, I plan to look for a short term rental - 6 months at a time. This does mean I'll have to interact with WH/STBXH for furnishings, etc. Sigh.... Guess we might as well work on splitting the stuff which is eventual anyway.

I go back and read my posts and your responses and sometimes I think I'm peeking into someone else's life and it's not my life at all. It's surreal. I can't help but wonder how this all happened. How blind-sided I was. It really feels like I'm driving down the road singing happily in my car to the radio and out of nowhere, I'm broad-sided by a speeding truck and my life is never again the same. Completely. Totally. Out. Of. My. Control.

I still question my choices. Wonder if I shouldn't let this marinate more. Give it time. And then I also look back and re-affirm that I have done exactly as I should have. Time to tidy this all up and move on. I didn't make this mess but since it's my life, I'm damn straight gonna clean it up. If I don't, who will?

I am most encouraged by the advice from all of you that even if the D is finalized, who knows what may happen down the road - not because I think or want to get back together - but because it means that when I question my choices, I need to know that nothing is final, final. There are still choices, even in making final choices.

Lalagirl nailed it - my M as I knew it is dead. I don't want that M back. So the only choice for me is to end it. Kill it off. Put it out of its misery. Who knows where the relationship with WH goes from here but I guarantee it is not back to what it was pre-sext message to OW. Nope. Not gonna happen.

Looking out 2-3 months, I see myself as single, living in a short term rental, doing yoga, being a mom, focused at work, hanging with friends and working on mending my broken heart. WH is not in the picture other than handling the "business of breaking-up" with dividing the household, closing an account and definitely separating phone services so I stop having access to his phone history. (I hate that whole checking up on him thing.)

I won't be angry. I won't be cruel. I don't need revenge.

At least not at this moment...

Level-headed TOC, over and out.

[This message edited by TurnOtherCheek at 6:08 AM, October 18th (Tuesday)]

I have to say, had I found SI within the first few days after d-day, I'm not so sure I'd be where I am today. (Trying to reconcile)

If you'd been going through this a year or so ago, and I read your posts and had your strength, I would like to think that I'd do exactly as you have done.

I have to admit, though, that -because I make decisions from the heart rather than the brain, a part of me hopes you reconcile. I dont see that happening, tho.

Regardless, everything happens for a reason.

I wonder, though...if he erased everything and then blocked her after realizing he'd sent the text to the wrong person...

How did he know she contacted him to ask if she should be worried about you and how you'd react?

Just wondering. Did I miss something?

Cricket

I wonder, though...if he erased everything and then blocked her after realizing he'd sent the text to the wrong person...

How did he know she contacted him to ask if she should be worried about you and how you'd react?

Just wondering. Did I miss something?

He had to get in touch with her so eventually unblocked her. She was set to take care of our dogs and he had to contact her to cancel so I guess/assume never blocked her again. I suppose he eventually had to tell her what was going on, after I was out of town. I guess at the moment he canceled their little tryst on her, he didn't want the uncomfortable messages coming from her while trying to deal with me. Who knows. I'm only guessing but he has already told me he was texting her to cancel having her take care of the dogs while we were set to be away. We had already booked her for that.

[This message edited by TurnOtherCheek at 7:11 AM, October 18th (Tuesday)]

TOC,

I hope you have enough details now. Trust me, the more you know, the more you will hurt. The boat is a trigger, pizza...a trigger, etc. Be kind to yourself and draw a line in the sand.

I hope you have as good a day as you can today.