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The problem with the trip is that EVEN with the BEST of INTENTIONS your wife doesn’t control things.

The OM – as her boss – can simply appear. I doubt his manager will be micromanaging him and his trips, so the OM can simply “by coincidence” be in the same town, same hotel, same customers…

Your wife is so open for harassment or temptation – no matter what SHE wants.

Talk to HR…

My wife came home super hung over. She slept a lot of the day and didn't feel well. She knows they didn't have sex because of her tampon and only having one. It was still there when she left. She doesn't know if they did other things is what she told me.

She is not even trying to use the alcohol as an excuse. She is saying the same things you guys are: that they seem to be linked somehow but is not the reason.

She is going, I won't be sad. I was depressed yesterday when I wrote that. If I feel like that again, I'll work out. I am going to go over all of this with the counselor and see what they think about poly and whatnot. I am definitely leaning towards yes though. She agreed to it, if it would help and I think it will. HR is going to happen to. I just don't think anything good will happen without it. If I have to worry about temptation and shit on her business trips, why even bother trying to R? I don't want to have to think about it.

I want to emphasize that the poly is for you.

I think reconciliation places great demands on the BS. If you want to reconcile you are also accepting a covenant where you – the BS – sort of say “OK – I know you cheated, I fully accept and think it was totally 100% your fault. Nothing I did made you cheat. Yet I want to have you in my life as my best friend, partner-for-life and wife in the true meaning of that word.”

There really isn’t any way for you to keep that covenant with constant distrust. At the same time reality and what happened make it near-impossible and totally unrealistic for blind trust. You can’t constantly pull the infidelity-card when you two argue – yet for the next couple of years you will have a need to discuss it. (I could write a book on the futileness and stupidity of blind-trust, infidelity or not…)

IMHO the best way forwards is having the truth. The cold fact is that you might never have the complete truth because all you can do is hear what she says, corroborate that with dates, calendars, call-logs, financial spending… It might give you 80%-95% of the “truth”. Like the night she passed out… If she doesn’t know what happened there isn’t any way you will ever know what happened. What a poly does is that it can confirm or refute the truth as SHE sees it.

This is where it gets tricky.

She tells you her “truth” and passes a poly… You need to accept her truth as the truth. That would be the base you build your reconciliation on.

That’s why trickle-truth and secrets kill R. It’s like building a house and constantly having to change the plans from the foundation up. Have a good, steady foundation and all changes become easier.

You can also decide to forego a poly and simply evaluate her “truth” on its merits. For example; the sex in the beach-house. Based on what you have shared then it’s likely that she’s telling the truth in that she didn’t have vaginal sex. On a scale from 1 to 10 I would rate her tampon reasoning at 6+. If you could somehow corroborate the story, for example if you know her cycle and it fits with the dates, it might go to 7.

If she was so drunk she doesn’t remember anything, then she would pass a poly even if they were at it like dogs in heat. If she doesn’t see oral or mutual masturbation as “sex” she could pass a poly (therefore the need of a good operator that makes certain all definitions are clear). What a poly can do is raise the believability of what she has told from 7 to 9.

Once you have 9 you might be better capable of committing to reconciliation. The further along you two make it there that grade might go up to 9.5 or even 10. But you have to learn with dealing with your doubts and questions and at some point accept you have what you need.

On the plus side then IF reconciliation is done correctly SHE will want you to know the truth and will understand the necessity. She will feel safe telling you the truth.

So like I said: The poly is for you to enable you to reach a place where you are capable of possibly reconciling.

She knows they didn't have sex because of her tampon and only having one. It was still there when she left. She doesn't know if they did other things is what she told me.

Bigger brings up a good point, does your wife consider watching him masturbate as having sex or not sex at all?

The I don't remember excuse is the most maddening of all with this situation.

What was she drinking? I ask because you mentioned that she never forget the nights at home with you while drinking. So it seems a little odd she would not remember these times with the OM.

As for her drinking and sex, alcohol certainly drops all inhibitions and loosens all boundaries. Maybe she should read not just friends, it deals with boundaries.

What has your wife told you about this trip, why wont the OM be there and what are her plans for drinking?

Hiring a PI could be a good move. Does her phone have a gps in it, many phones do, if so turn it on. Just dont let her know.

Good morning everyone! I feel great today. I spoke with a counselor last night for around 20 min and we worked through some things. He agreed that HR HAS to be told and there very well could be a lawsuit here (what with the previous sexual harassment and the fact that he is 20 years older than her. Makes him look like he took advantage of her to a certain extent, which, while it was her choice too, I can see).

Her boss is away on his own business trip the next two weeks. She has been talking about this for a while now (even before her coming to me about the affair). I do trust her with this one. She will not be drinking and will be traveling alone.

What was she drinking? I ask because you mentioned that she never forget the nights at home with you while drinking. So it seems a little odd she would not remember these times with the OM.

She was drinking a mixture of beer, cocktails and shots. The whole thing about her not forgetting nights at home is a moot point because she doesn't get black out drunk at our house ever. She downloaded the audio book of "not just friends" and started listening to it. Her plan is finish it while on her trip (she has many many hours of driving in the next week). I am reading it on my own as well.

I don't think she views the masturbation as sex. I told her that when the whole "kissing" turned out to be kissing combined with him jacking off, it makes me question other "kissing" since it is essentially sex. She didn't seem to agree with that assessment but did agree that it is different and she should have clarified.

My counselor told me he was less interested in the "what, where, when" type questions and more interested in getting to the bottom of the "why, how" type questions so we can see what we need to do to curtail this type of behavior.

I agree completely about the poly. I think she will pass and it may be because she looks at things differently than we do. The whole kissing/masturbation thing clearly is similar to her and not in the sex spectrum. I am leaning towards the merit side of things since things seem to be going well. That beach house week would have been her period (she's on birth control so it's super regular) so I believe her on the sex part of it. Like you said, there could have been oral and whatnot but if she honestly doesn't remember it, it's not going to show and even if it does show, does it matter? All it shows is that she is hiding some things from me but I really do think this thing is done.

We are going to draft a letter to HR and hire a lawyer to go over it with us to make sure we are all set. My wife and I both decided this was the best course of action and would ensure we don't fuck ourselves in the event that we would need to file a lawsuit. My counselor said he would be shocked if this type of behavior hadn't reared it's head from her boss on any other occasion in the many years he has been with the company and that alone should have made him unsuitable to be someone's boss.

I agree completely about the poly. I think she will pass and it may be because she looks at things differently than we do. The whole kissing/masturbation thing clearly is similar to her and not in the sex spectrum.

As an FYI during the test the administrator will go over what the term sex means each time the word is used in a question. "for this test the term sex means Anal, oral, penetration, bla, bla, bla, ..... so it would be very clear to her what is being asked.

I think she will pass and it may be because she looks at things differently than we do.

That said, I feel like she will fail the test but has a built in excuse for when she does. That she can continue to say she doesn't remember what happened and the stress of not knowing caused her to fail.

I do think it's a good sign that she is going to draft the letter to HR with you. Make sure you do this soon.

[This message edited by Freeme at 10:06 AM, September 29th (Thursday)]

So the fact that she was in bed with him, kissing him while he jerked off, or she may have even sucked his dick doesn't seem to be a problem for you? You seem to be more honed in on the cash payout you can get from the company she works for.

Your wife cheated on you. Sure her boss may be a pussy hound, but your wife was the willing rabbit for him to chase. You better deal with this problem, or it will surely happen again. And the next time there might not be a check to look forward to.

I don't think she views the masturbation as sex. I told her that when the whole "kissing" turned out to be kissing combined with him jacking off, it makes me question other "kissing" since it is essentially sex. She didn't seem to agree with that assessment but did agree that it is different and she should have clarified.

That is a problem. I would guess she doesn't view oral sex as having sex either. The old Bill Clinton excuse of I did not have sex with that woman.

Ask your wife if she would be fine with you kissing other women. Ask your wife if she would fine if you were kissing another woman watching her masturbate.

Just ask her how she would view this as a sexual affair or not.

I still think YOU are the one that needs to write this letter and back it up with a phone call to HR. Why does your wife have to be a part of it. You are the concerned husband, you do it.

Plus you now have the backing of your therapist to do this.

Hiring a lawyer, I don't know why, who is going to sue you anyway. I doubt you will end up suing the company for this.

I still think you are believing your wife too much at this point. The boss could show up at any time. Your wife should not even be traveling alone anymore.

ETA:

She didn't seem to agree with that assessment but did agree that it is different and she should have clarified.

Sounds like double talk to me, clarified, hey she knows what sex is and she knows the English language.

[This message edited by craig2001 at 10:12 AM, September 29th (Thursday)]

So the fact that she was in bed with him, kissing him while he jerked off, or she may have even sucked his dick doesn't seem to be a problem for you? You seem to be more honed in on the cash payout you can get from the company she works for.

Your wife cheated on you. Sure her boss may be a pussy hound, but your wife was the willing rabbit for him to chase. You better deal with this problem, or it will surely happen again. And the next time there might not be a check to look forward to.

Wow. No, I'm not okay with any of this! I just don't think the details of what they did, matter is what I am saying. It doesn't upset me more or less at this point. She had sex with him and continued an affair for 3 months. Whatever they did during it doesn't matter to me anymore. It's all cheating and if I want to R I have to come to terms with it all.

I'm not going to fucking sue them either. I'm excited for this because she is agreeing that the letter needs to happen (she's heard it from you guys, and now from a professional counselor). I couldn't care less about the money, but it reassures her and I that there is a potential lawsuit here if the company doesn't handle it correctly on their end.

I'm sorry if I came across as being okay with me getting cheated on for some money...

Hiring a lawyer, I don't know why, who is going to sue you anyway. I doubt you will end up suing the company for this.

We were thinking to just cover all of our bases in case they did retaliate at all. I agree, I don't think we would be suing anyone and they are definitely not going to be suing us. But maybe the lawyer is not necessary.

Ask your wife if she would be fine with you kissing other women. Ask your wife if she would fine if you were kissing another woman watching her masturbate.

Just ask her how she would view this as a sexual affair or not.

She wouldn't be fine with any of this, just like I'm not fine with it. I don't think it necessarily changes her view of what is sex and what isn't though. It is a sexual affair because of the sex and the kissing and masturbating are sexual acts (I don't think any of the kisses were pecks). She would agree with that much of it, even if she doesn't view these things as sex.

There are always ways to be direct, consistent and firm without being abusive…

I think we need to be careful in how we phrase things here…

Desertmirage – Once again I want to say that despite you being a slow-learner () you are doing great and your wife is definitely showing positive signs. Just remember – if I stick to the marathon-in-a-suite-of-armor comparison – the first yards off the starting line are the easiest. Just because you hardly sweat after ten steps doesn’t mean the next ten thousand will be easy.

There are always ways to be direct, consistent and firm without being abusive…

I think we need to be careful in how we phrase things here…

Desertmirage – Once again I want to say that despite you being a slow-learner () you are doing great and your wife is definitely showing positive signs. Just remember – if I stick to the marathon-in-a-suite-of-armor comparison – the first yards off the starting line are the easiest. Just because you hardly sweat after ten steps doesn’t mean the next ten thousand will be easy.

Thanks so much, Bigger. I agree with you completely in your analogy. I fully expect that during couple's therapy, lots of stuff I don't want to hear is going to come up. I'm just feeling relief (first time I have felt this good since she told me of the affair) in that we have someone to talk to who sounds very competent and will help us, and that she is starting to understand what needs to happen and how much she fucked up. I really didn't want it to come across that I was okay with any of her actions. I'm not, if I was, I wouldn't be here and would be out enjoying my now open marriage.

[This message edited by desertmirage at 10:33 AM, September 29th (Thursday)]

It's all cheating and if I want to R I have to come to terms with it all.

Yes it is all cheating, but in order to fully R, your wife has to be totally honest with all of this. She needs to understand that I dont remembers are killers in any marriage.

Your wife needs to fully understand what sex is and what wrong is. And kissing that guy at the wedding and now this, is ALL sex and it is all wrong. Not to mention, lying is wrong.

She seems to be able to rationalize her lies, and it bothers me that she really doesnt think this is fully sex.

So what happens the next time she is out and get drunks and kisses some guy, does more, but not intercourse, will she be okay with this.

She has to understand boundaries and right from wrong.

She would agree with that much of it, even if she doesn't view these things as sex.

I do not understand how she cannot view these things as sex.

On a positive note, it sounds like you have a good therapist and that always helps.

Yeah, I'm not really sure what she constitutes as what. I'm sure this is going to come up with the counselor. I am going to write down everything that has happened so far (timeline, what she told me when, my feelings and thoughts on everything) and bring it with me to my session so the counselor can see what has transpired from my perspective. I am definitely going to bring up the trickle truthing and this whole sex/not sex thing.

Wow. No, I'm not okay with any of this! I just don't think the details of what they did, matter is what I am saying. It doesn't upset me more or less at this point. She had sex with him and continued an affair for 3 months. Whatever they did during it doesn't matter to me anymore. It's all cheating and if I want to R I have to come to terms with it all.

I'm not going to fucking sue them either. I'm excited for this because she is agreeing that the letter needs to happen (she's heard it from you guys, and now from a professional counselor). I couldn't care less about the money, but it reassures her and I that there is a potential lawsuit here if the company doesn't handle it correctly on their end.

I'm sorry if I came across as being okay with me getting cheated on for some money...

Ok. You kind of did come across as wanting the money earlier. So now you don't want the money. You still have a cheating, lying, immoral wife. How do you expect to deal with that?

[This message edited by longforgotten at 12:59 PM, September 29th (Thursday)]

Okay I have to chime in again and deliver a 4x4 warning. Nothing but support for you desertmirage but please look at the big picture..

1. She cheated on you

2. She came to you

3. You don't have the truth just an interpretation and half truths or omissions

4. She reports to HR the harassment. This is a must!

5. You start couples therepy/counselor? Where she gets to air her "problems with the marriage". Great now she has mud to toss at you.

6. You spin your wheels with the unknowns and trying hard to fix the marriage. And clean all this mud she tossed now. She fixes what?

7. She fails the polygraph but uses the bill clinton excuse

8. Affair partner gives a full accounting and detailed statement showing sex every work day and more. Or he lets you know exactly what happened.

Who is going to be hurt? Her or you? You are setting this up for failure on so many levels. Listen to the advice and warnings and use your head not your heart. We are here for you and we want what will make you happy but we want your marriage to be fixed not duct taped back together..

[This message edited by sneaker at 1:50 PM, September 29th (Thursday)]

Okay I have to chime in again and deliver a 4x4 warning. Nothing but support for you desertmirage but please look at the big picture..

1. She cheated on you

2. She came to you

3. You don't have the truth just an interpretation and half truths or omissions

4. She reports to HR the harassment. This is a must!

5. You start couples therepy/counselor? Where she gets to air her "problems with the marriage". Great now she has mud to toss at you.

6. You spin your wheels with the unknowns and trying hard to fix the marriage. And clean all this mud she tossed now. She fixes what?

7. She fails the polygraph but uses the bill clinton excuse

8. Affair partner gives a full accounting and detailed statement showing sex every work day and more. Or he lets you know exactly what happened.

Who is going to be hurt? Her or you? You are setting this up for failure on so many levels. Listen to the advice and warnings and use your head not your heart. We are here for you and we want what will make you happy but we want your marriage to be fixed not duct taped back together..

I really really would hope that the counseling doesn't dissolve into just a what do we need to work on as a marriage. The things that she doesn't like, she laid out and are very minor things. I am hoping that the counseling is more about the affair, why did it happen, what is going on in her head that made something like this possible, etc. If it starts to become at all about what I need to work on to make her happy in our marriage before any of the big issues are addressed, I would think it would be time for a new counselor. We both have things to work on, I get it, but she has waayyyy more to work on if she wants this to work. I need to know that this won't happen again or I can find someone else who respects me. The fact that these activities have happened twice (first kiss I gave her the benefit of the doubt and didn't make a huge deal about) make me sure she has to work through a lot of stuff.

I guess, at this point, I don't understand (probably obtuse as someone else said) what it matters if I get all the little details of the affair. If she is just straight lying about things (length of affair, frequency of sexual activity etc) then I have a problem with that, but at this point, if she gave him a BJ or whatever here and there, I don't think it hurts any more or less. I'm looking at it as she cheated on me for 3 months with her boss and they did all kinds of stuff. I do think she has told me almost everything (assuming she is holding something back). I don't think it was easy to tell me that she kissed him while he masturbated. That is an embarrassing scene. I probably am missing the big picture, but this is how I am feeling about the details portion of this.

I am hoping that the counseling is more about the affair, why did it happen, what is going on in her head that made something like this possible, etc

Without the entire truth, before moving onto MC, the affair will always be the elephant in the room.

I guess, at this point, I don't understand (probably obtuse as someone else said) what it matters if I get all the little details of the affair. If she is just straight lying about things (length of affair, frequency of sexual activity etc) then I have a problem with that, but at this point, if she gave him a BJ or whatever here and there, I don't think it hurts any more or less.

There are little details and big details. You must understand that, and her ability to lie is one problem, I think the bigger problem is she doesn't even think watching him masturbate is a problem and who knows what else she doesn't consider a problem.

If she did have oral sex with him, you consider that a smaller detail, I think, not sure. But the fact she can continue to lie is a huge problem.

She has shown her side of not considering much of what she has done wrong, so what happens the next time. Will she go as far as all kinds of sex short of intercourse and consider that no big deal.

Something is missing in her story, she came to you with this and yet thinks it was no big deal, which is probably why she did admit.

I don't think it was easy to tell me that she kissed him while he masturbated. That is an embarrassing scene.

Actually, I think it was somewhat easy for her, since she saw it as being not a big deal. She has an odd sense of right and wrong for a married woman.

You may be right Craig. The other way to look at the masturbating thing, is to look at it that it is embarrassing for her, which is why it was originally described as kissing. In her mind it wasn't intercourse so if she just doesn't bring it up it's not as big as the time they had intercourse. I agree with you completely that she has a warped sense of right and wrong (at least in that she let herself do things that were clearly wrong) but I would imagine that is true of all cheaters?

I think we can all agree that for some details are important for others not so much. I have heard stories of betrayed wives say "I don't want to know" and R'd. I am getting a sense you don't want to know how many times she polished his knob. I get that. But you opened Pandora's box by asking for how many times did she have sex. She answered and that may or may not be a lie or minimized. It is in that capacity to lie to you that the problem resides not in the detail of the lie or omission. Think of it as an invisible wedge she knows she has a secret and you know she isn't being forth coming. Not a great place to start R from. I would have her write a timeline and then do a poly, and be done with it as your planning ASAP. Tell HR immediately you can also file a complaint with the EEOC that will get the employers attention..

https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sex.cfm

You are doing fantastic, it took me weeks to be were you are right now! Just don't get bogged down with a consular you don't like or approve of because remember it is your CHOICE to R and not her's it is a gift you are giving to her knowing she fucked the marriage up. But you can't truly know if the marriage will work until she becomes a safe partner and that starts with honesty. It is freeing not only for you but her also. Go to the polygraph!