SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Thanks for clarifying! Yeah, I don't care how many times she gave BJs or whatever. I don't want to be lied to about the things I did ask, but I do feel like she only had intercourse with him once (the sex I asked her about). I think the masturbating is sex as well (not intercourse ofc) so that could be a matter of semantics. If there are more strange sex things they did, whatever. Like you guys said, it would come back on the poly that she passed if she views sex as intercourse. And like someone else said, the person giving the test will define it, and if it was oral or something else, she'll fail but what does that tell me? HR is GOING to be informed shortly. Thanks for the link, I will look into that as well. Her company seems like a wonderful company to work for, I don't think this will be taken lightly and I think they will do the correct thing which is either to just fire her boss or at least demote him so he doesn't have any direct reports. Thanks a lot for everything!

Most cheaters flat out lie, use the IDK or I dont remember answers to lie. I think your wife either doesn't know in her mind this was really wrong or is flat out lying.

The other way to look at the masturbating thing, is to look at it that it is embarrassing for her, which is why it was originally described as kissing.

This is classic TT, and there is most likely more.

It is the being lied to that is usually worse than the actual deed. Something the WW normally doesn't get.

Craig, gotcha. Yeah I get the trickle truth. The masturbation thing was absolutely that. I think she knows right from wrong clearly. For some reason she decided to just do what was wrong. When I said her sense was warped, I meant more that she is willing to just do whatever. Like others have said, it's incredibly selfish, but I don't think she looks at all of what she did and thinks things are okay or acceptable. She just clearly didn't care enough not to. And that is what I am hoping we can uncover in the counseling. What is it, that made it seem like it wasn't that bad or however she justified cheating.

You're getting good advice on the disclosure to HR. I want to fine tune it a bit based on my experience as an HR manager responsible for employee terminations/suspensions. I've had professional experience in cases of supervisor/subordinate affairs.

1. You/your attorney have to be the one to go to HR not your wife. If she goes, the organization may pause and give thought about his word against her word. To save his ass he will then gaslight them by saying she is a disgruntled, poor performing employee. They may also decide that the expedient course of action is to fire both of them to make both of them go away.

2. Ironically, when you go to HR it increases her credibility because she disclosed it to you at great risk to her marriage.

3. An organization that is large enough to have attorney/advisers on staff, or a private attorney on retainer, will be the best of circumstances for you. This is because attorneys by training and professional responsibility are all about limiting their client's liability.

4. POS is a current liability to them already with the warning in his file. The organization will find through their IT department the extent to which he used company time and equipment to further the affair.

5. His words about helping her get reassigned should be noted in the letter because it is an implicit admission on his part. The organization would see this as another violation of his responsibility as a supervisor because he is taking the action to further his personal agenda rather than the company's business.

6. Her consenting to the relationship will not be a big factor. He was in a position of power over a subordinate.

7. The letter should say that you want a search of his work email and phone and a disclosure of any photos or videos he may have taken of your wife. And a disclosure if he sent these to other individuals.

8. The letter should state that you are prepared to have a subpoena issued to ensure their disclosure in item 7 is complete.

9. Do not consent to have your wife questioned by the organization's attorney. Do not have her sign any statement. These are signs that you need to engage your own attorney. Organizations will try to do this so they lock her into a story in the event you sue them. It will be used against you.

10. Identify the goals you want to achieve by the disclosure to HR.

Primarily you should be using this a means of helping you get out of infidelity. And protect her from any retaliation from the POS and the organization. You are looking to preserve her employment and ensure NC by having the POS fired.

You want to ensure that there is no compromising photos or video of your wife.

11. It is a close call as to whether the letter/disclosure should come from you or under the letterhead of your attorney. The advantage of having it come for your attorney is that it puts them on notice that your have legal representation. There is a disadvantage if the letter from your attorney is filled with threats of legal action. The organization would then likely get into a defensive crouch.

12. If the letter is from your attorney, it should mirror the goals in item 10, rather than threats of lawsuits. The organization's legal representative will see the possibility of a lawsuit all on their own. The letter should be crafted to give them an easy way out.

13. If the organization meets your goals, don't sign any release giving away future rights until your own attorney advises you.

^^^^^^^^This should be in a stickey.

Omg, thank you timeless! Yes please put this in a sticky for others. It's perfect!

Any updates? How are you doing desertmirage?

:Beer:

We start MC this evening. Things have been very up and down. We both finished Not Just Friends and are communicating better. She has given me access to her journal that her IC told her to keep during the affair so I can see what thoughts she was having and whatnot. Was very hard to read and has really bummed me out. We are going to be meeting with a couple of attorneys to get a letter drafted to HR.

I didn't make her take a poly. I am content with the knowledge that has been gleaned and things do seem to add up.

Emotionally, I'm all over the place. Some moments great, some super sad/angry/disgusted with her. I have no clue if I want to R at all anymore and just D. I can't seem to get over the fact that she would cheat on me and it was more than a drunken ONS. Trying to come to terms with that and hopefully MC will help a bit. Thanks for asking, Sneaker.

EDIT: Thanks for the beer, haha, I am all out atm.

[This message edited by desertmirage at 11:02 AM, October 11th (Tuesday)]

Desert

I think your reactions are typical for betrayed husbands. Your first reaction is some primal need to reclaim yours. Once that’s happened… well… you wonder if you still want yours.

If you can then try to use the MC to rebuild or create a new marriage. Other than improve communications I can’t really see how a MC can make you “accept” or come to terms with what she did. Furthermore, we are ALL in agreement that nothing you did nor the past state of your marriage in any way explains or justifies her affair. A MC won’t point at something in the past and say THAT is what made her do it. Spend the time and money in getting tools to be safer and more content with each other.

I think that the best hope for reconciling a marriage is where both put effort into creating a great marriage. I wouldn’t be surprised that for the next year or two you often stop and think “is it worth it?” and the only thing keeping you going is some hope or vision for what could be. I don’t think we ever will or should accept the affair, but I do hope that with time you might look at her one evening and think “I’m glad she’s my wife. Despite the affair”, and she be thinking “I’m glad he’s still here despite what I did”.

I also hope that you both have the sense to realize IF things aren’t working out. It’s OK for you to look at her after some time and think “no. It’s not changing. I can’t get over what she did” and decide to move on.

It’s sort of like if you lived an unhealthy lifestyle. You don’t exercise, eat unhealthy, drink, smoke… One day you wake up in ICU recovering from a near-fatal coronary-attack. When you get home you could either hire someone to explain to you why the bad food and lifestyle-choices nearly killed you or you could hire someone to help you change diet, exercise, stop smoking and change your lifestyle.

If you do the former, you remain in the unhealthy lifestyle but might better understand it’s damage and possibly edge out of it. If you do the latter the person would probably explain along the way why the past nearly killed you, but would focus on the present and give you tools for the future.

Within a few years you could be in the best shape of your life. At that point you might feel grateful for the work you put into improving your life, but I doubt you would ever go so far as thank your past lifestyle for getting you into ICU and therefore forcing the changes.

Ps. … Every day that goes by without talking to HR… weakens your stance with the company. Either get that done or have your wife change jobs. You two WILL NOT recover while she and OM work together and/or while OM has unrestricted access to her. I think my advice has been spot-on so far and the excellent post by TimelessLoss elaborates and confirms a lot I have said. Listen to me on this one.

Please listen to all these Gentlemen and Ladies....You have gotten excellent advice here. I'm 20 months out and have been able too look at things from a more calm perspective. Verify.....Please go to HR. I know it is so very scary. Please rethink the Poly.....I wish I had! Much hope and love to you....

Desert,

You are the beneficiary of Solid Gold from Bigger. His assessments have proven to be spot on over and over again. The analogies he creates are so helpful in understanding the situation you are in and how you must act. He has said you have a chance of making this work out. But you must take the steps needed to keep that chance alive.

Please consider IC for yourself if the mind movies created by those journals becomes repetitive and all consuming. MC won't help you cope with that.

Remember, you have a chance. Be the decisive leader in your marriage even though it is not clear how it will ultimately play out.

Thanks everyone! We heard back from a couple attorneys this evening. HR IS going to be notified. This is non negotiable for me. I love the idea of it coming from a lawyer so that is how we are proceeding. Thanks so much for all your guy's help. It is much appreciated. The MC went well tonight. Just general probing of her and our relationship prior to A. I'm looking forward to seeing how it progresses.

Edit: thanks for the IC recommendation. Today was super super tough and I probably should have spoken to someone. It's just so hard reading the thoughts of someone you love and care about and they are talking about missing and wanting someone else...

[This message edited by desertmirage at 7:37 PM, October 11th (Tuesday)]

She didn't miss him she missed the high like an addict he was her drug dealer. She only saw what he wanted her to see not that her bag of dope was cut and diluted. He used her and found her buttons and she let him push them. It's easy to live in a fantasy land devoid of the day to day hussle, she didn't require or expect anything so everything was good attention to her. No challenge. And she allowed those boundaries and the relationship to exist in its form by compartmentalizing, minimizing, projecting, and justifications. She has a lot of work she needs to do and needs IC not MC. I feel she needs to be vulnerable and more forthcoming or your going to suffer a death by a thousand lies it is still early but you are going on the right path. Keep your head up, what you read was wayward fog brain not a sane safe partner.

:beer:

Yeah. You're right. She said as much after i finished reading. She said they were basically confused musings and don't read into it much but that she wanted to share everything and get it all out. MC Told her, if she wanted, he would see her privately for a few sessions. She needs help in understanding what inside her, allowed her to justify going through with A. I feel like I'm on the outside looking in...

She said they were basically confused musings and don't read into it much

It was more than just musings. She had sex with him, didn't she? Or am I thinking of a different thread?

@wk55hn

she did he is ref to her journal in counseling saying she missed her ap... desertmirage got to read this and was having issue..

still think if he looks it shows there is more to this story... TT is a killer

I don't even think it's TT. To me it's just hard reading it. I would assume that one would miss and want someone when they are in a relationship (regardless of what the relationship is). Just sucks reading it, but I guess i can be appreciative that she is willing to share it? If roles were reversed that would be hard for me to do.

Desert

First of all, I think it’s a very positive step that she shares her journals. I think not knowing can hurt a lot more than knowing.

I posted the below some time ago. I think it might apply and might help in dealing with what you are reading in her journal:

All these things said about your wife… Well… They are true. She did cheat, she has lied and she has exhibited some of the classic WW symptoms like trickle-truth, minimizing, justifying…

But that’s not your wife. That’s your wayward wife.

If you can then look at her as two people. There is the W and the WW. You want to eradicate the WW but feed the W so she becomes the dominant personality. You want to believe W but not until you are certain WW has gone. You want to trust W but not until WW has left the building.

At times the W might be dominant, but there are times when WW tells W to ease up on herself and remind W how exciting the affair was and how she can fool you.

Until you are certain that the WW is gone and your W is in control… You encourage the W to thrive but take care not to be bitten by the WW.

I also want to suggest one step that might prove therapeutic for you. Tell your wife that reading what you read hurt you deeply. You appreciate her willingness to be open and want her to remain open but that what you read raised some questions and doubts in your mind. You want to clear the air to help move on.

Tell her that NOTHING is keeping her in the marriage other than HER willingness to remain.

This is IMHO a key element. If she has doubts, if she misses the affair, if she misses OM… whatever… then NOW is the time to check out of the marriage.

Your – Desertimage – views and what YOU want aren’t’ relevant right now. It’s all about what SHE wants (because no matter how much YOU might want the marriage then if she’s not on board you aren’t getting what you want.)

Remove all obstacles and hindrances preventing her from leaving the marriage. Emphasize that there are laws, regulations and procedures to ensure you both get a fair shake in divorce. Minimize whatever stigma it might have with parents and family. After all – if you divorce chances are you will distance yourself over time from her family and vice-versa.

Make it clear that it’s not what you want – but that you only want her to be your wife if she truly and freely wants to be your wife.

Finally, Desert – Good that the MC wants to talk to her. But be careful and be VERY CLEAR on this:

NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING you did or did not do made her decide to have the affair.

The MC won’t find solutions to prevent her from having an affair by changing your role in the marriage. What a good MC does is help you two communicate. He gives you tasks to work together on because that work makes you communicate, understand each other and be more open to discuss your issues. A good MC gives you ways to learn how to give and take, when to work and when to play. To use a medical comparison: An IC is the doctor that diagnoses and sets the broken left foot. The MC is the physiotherapist that helps the healing left foot and the right foot to work together in moving you along.

I don't even think it's TT. To me it's just hard reading it.

That is exactly what trickle truth is. When there is a something about the affair that comes up that you didn't know about before. She gets the relief from the disclosure or truth (relief from guilt) and you get hurt. Its best to take that hurt in one big shot then over and over again. It kills the R.

Gotcha, I guess I just thought TT was more about actual facts and truths (lies being uncovered and whatnot).

Bigger, thanks again! More great stuff. She doesn't miss him at all now. She described him as a serial cheater and bad person the other night. It's definitely over. Her telling him she wanted NC besides strictly work related things pissed him off a bit and he has been very curt with her. He's been traveling for work tge last few weeks and this week as well so it's giving us time for hr this week.