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She has the texts of him giving her song recommendations and her response of leave me alone like I told you before. I think this stuff almost has to be in the context of a prior relationship or it doesnt seem bad. She'll have to admit to the affair and then go on about the other "i tried to make it work, was scared, etc". Tell them all of it and it will make sense. She doesnt have proof of the hug and him hitting on her but it would be the same if he touched her inappropriately or like her coworker. Her coworker didnt have proof either. I dont know how mucb it matters to HR. If she reports it they have to make a record of it and if she admits the affair too, it will make sense.

have to admit to the affair and then go on about the other "i tried to make it work, was scared, etc". Tell them all of it and it will make sense.

Scared of what.

She cannot and should not embellish. Just the damn facts of what happened and what is happening now.

desertmirage,

I want to be kind with this cause god knows I didn't do everything right with my WW.

If you want to stay with your WW and move forward with R, then you and your WW need to tell HR the full truth. Yes your WW might loose her job but saving your marriage is more important.

If however you choose the D option then say nothing cause it will be better for you economically if your wife maintains employment.

There is no middle ground here. You have to make a tough decision.

I meant scared of telling HR about it. But since he wont leave her alone she has to tell.

I meant scared of telling HR about it. But since he wont leave her alone she has to tell.

That is the consequence of having an affair. That is why AP's cannot work together.

The AP is trying his hardest to get something from your WW, and that something is what you're WW gave him freely before.

[This message edited by notanotherchance at 9:03 PM, November 5th (Saturday)]

Just as your WW had brokenness inside her the AP has it also. And by your wife rejecting him now, this is a direct blow to his ego. So he will keep trying to convince himself she wants it or she just needs a cool off period and they will be right back to fucking. He won't stop because it would damage his ego to be rejected. He will keep picking at that until he finds the right button to push.

Sheeesh! This is become such a convoluted mess. Go back and read Biggers recommendations on how to handle this. Bigger gives solid advice...he's not blowing smoked out his ass - he knows his stuff!

Read bigger's posts three or four times then either shit or get off the pot. It's starting to feel staged and if it looks manipulative when you report this - it will go badly.

Desert

Three separate issues:

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One question I have asked 2-3 times but never been answered:

Does your wife (or you) think the affair is a secret at the office?

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This is my take on the HR issue:

No No No.

No acting, no half-truths.

This is how you deal with HR. It’s not fool-proof and it might get your wife fired. But I doubt it and even if then this is how you deal with HR.

Your WIFE (not you) go to HR and tell them of the affair. She asks for an appointment and does this in person. She says OM initiated and she responded. She tells HR how she took care to ensure the affair had no impact on her work.

Regarding why she didn’t tell when asked about other inappropriate contact in that “other case” she simply says she was afraid.

She then tells how the pressure of the affair made her seek IC, end the affair and confess to you and focus on reconciling her marriage. She emphasizes how short and limited the actual physical aspect of the affair was.

She then tells HR how she asked that OM keep their relationship professional only.

She mentions how OM offered to move her to another department.

She then tells how OM has since made advances and she has had to repeat her demand this be professional only.

She asks HR for guidance to ensure she feels safe at work. She tells them how his advances – despite her protests – are damaging her marriage and how she has had to spend money in getting legal advice (this is thrown in to remind HR that she’s no lamb to be sacrificed).

She does not demand OM is fired, moved or reprimanded. She only asks that she’s enabled to do her job without harassment from OM.

That’s it.

At the interview she doesn’t sign any admittance or any document. If asked to sign meeting-notes, then she declines and says she won’t sign anything without legal representation.

Once out of the interview she IMMEDIATELY sends an e-mail outlining what she said. A relatively short e-mail that basically only confirms she met with the HR rep and discussed the harassment she was experiencing from OM. No mention of the affair – the problem isn’t the affair (as far as work is concerned) but the ONGOING harassment.

OK. That’s it.

Don’t have to say ANYTHING more about HR.

Will she be fired? Maybe. Doubt it. Really doubt it.

More likely she will get a verbal warning and HR will want this to disappear. No long-term damage to anyone.

More likely she might get a written reprimand.

More likely that she can negotiate a great letter of recommendation and a golden handshake.

But then Desert…. My first (repeated) question: Do you think the affair is a workplace secret? How are YOU going to feel at the annual party when the secretary pool looks at you and smirks? (Maybe because they think you are hot… Maybe because that’s the husband whose wife slept with the boss…)

Let’s move on….

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OK Desert….

MAYBE we are focusing too much on HR…

Remember how I told you this is a journey? Your goal isn’t to reconcile or to divorce but to get out of infidelity?

MAYBE we have been spending too much time and focus on the tools rather than the destination. Sort of like we have been arguing whether to take the Volvo or the truck. HR is a tool. Exposing to HR is a task, it’s something that might be required, or it might not. But it’s not the destination. It’s not the goal.

Right now we are arguing about whether to camp under the tree or by the stream on our trek out of infidelity. Really doesn’t matter as long as we continue trekking in the right direction next morning.

Stop for a moment and THINK: What is your destination?

It’s out of infidelity.

Right now you want to make that journey with your wife.

Right now she wants to make that journey with you.

But are either of you making progress?

We can tell HR right now and you could still be full of doubt, your wife still a bit blind on her damage and you two still far from getting out of infidelity.

Or you can decide to swing this tool, tell HR and use it as help on your destination out of infidelity.

Or you can decide NOT to tell HR and find another tool, another vehicle, to help you reach out of infidelity.

Is one of you carrying too much load? Are you walking at comparable speeds? Are you walking in the same direction? Do you have the same destination? Do you both have the same vision of what’s waiting there?

Maybe her working with OM is placing excessive load on your shoulders. Maybe she’s waling on a tangent to you. Maybe you two aren’t covering the same distance every day…

It’s not enough that you meet up every evening at camp. You have to be moving in a direction out of infidelity and you have to move that way together.

It’s not enough to talk at camp about the route you just travelled and vaguely about the destination. You have to plan your path for tomorrow. Even if that’s going to be a boring, mundane hike across what might seem an endless desert.

To your advantage then you really haven’t reached the fork where you decide to R or D. It’s fast-approaching but you aren’t there yet.

I sort of agree with those that say you don’t need to decide to R or D right away… Sort of…

I think it CAN be better to take R or D and sort of wear the idea.

Like I see you want to R. So wear R. Tell your wife you want to R. Do what you can to R.

But don’t ignore D. Be aware of it. Always know you have options. Always be aware that IF R doesn’t fit – if it isn’t working – you can ALWAYS try D for a change.

Only be aware that it’s nearly impossible to work at reconciliation while working at divorce at the same time. It’s also going to damage R or D to be constantly switching between R and D.

So I suggest you commit to one or the other… But always remember the other option is available.

With that in mind then stop and think:

Will telling HR help me in reaching that destination?

What does WW reluctance to tell HR tell me about her view on getting out of infidelity?

Can I be committed to R while OM is still in our circle?

Can I get the same (or better) results through any other means short of telling HR?

I’m going to suggest the following Desert:

Sit your wife down and tell her of your wish to reconcile.

Be totally honest in that you really don’t know if you CAN reconcile.

Make it very clear to her how shattering the affair is to you on so many levels.

Tell her that no matter how much you WANT to trust her you CAN’T.

Tell her how sad it makes you feel to be more of a warden than a husband.

Tell her you realize that with time you need to deal with your trust-issues, but right now you aren’t there.

Ask her why she wants to be your wife.

Ask her how she sees you and her in the future. What does she expect from a marriage?

Tell her what your ideal marriage would be.

Ask her how she thinks you two can make it there.

Then ask her how remaining in the circle where the damage was caused is supposed to help you two get there…

Bigger, thanks again! She doesnt think anyone knows about her affair. They were very discreet and most of the really bad stuff happened when they were away on business. I think that once this gets out, he will tell as many people who will listen and everyone will know. I honestly, at this point dont care what they think and smirk. Her working with him, knowing he's hitting on her, is all consuming to me so telling HR and ending this one way or another is what needs to happen.

I'll make sure her statement looks as you have outlined. I think a lot of it does but there is less emphasis on on him initiating. I'll change that.

Sorry, mobile verison kinda sucks a lot and if I type too much I cant send... I have told her the two things I need is for her to tell HR to get away from him and a real answer of "why". I didn't promise R would work but that that was I needed.

Today was our 2nd wedding anniversary and I made it clear that I wasnt happy and didnt feel like we gad anything to celebrate. She disagreed and i told her all it did was remind of how little she cared about me, our vows, and our marriage as a whole. I think she got it. Moving forward, thanks again! Appreciate the insight.

I agree with Bigger's post about the HR contact. Most important that your wife plays it straight up. Don't try to game it. Time to be transparent and forget about the outcome of her employment since it is not within her control. She should take all of her documentation, pertinent email messages pre-affair/affair/post-affair, prepare a timeline for HR, and inform them that you know about the affair and the current workplace issues.

She should indicate her knowledge of the clause in the Employee Handbook about the requirement to disclose personal relationships. This gives credibility because it is an admission that goes against her self interest.

I don't agree with a previous post that said the HR contact should wait until there is a record of your wife accessing the Employee Assistance Program . If truthful, she can tell HR that she has contacted EAP to help her deal with the affair and workplace issues. This again increases credibility because it signals to the company that she is concerned about the effect on her marriage and her job.

Going to HR is one "tool" to get out of infidelity because it offers a path to the destination of NC with the POS AP. Yes, another tool was your wife leaving the job. I get how and why you have been willing to play the HR tool out rather than force her to quit her job.

The pages and pages of posts about HR have to be viewed through the lens of "SI 101" of outing the affair to the workplace as a means of ending the affair and enforcing NC with the AP. The confusing factor was what seemed to be the sole focus of preserving the employment, when the focus of SI 101 would only be NC with the AP.

The EAP contact should also be viewed through the lens of "SI 101": that IC is a tool that can lead to your wife understanding why she chose to enter into an affair. That's the true value of the EAP IC, not that it would bolster a wrongful termination lawsuit if she is fired.

I agree with Bigger that it is less likely that she will be fired. Perhaps reprimanded or suspended. But she certainly could be fired. Especially if she trickle truths them or cherry picks her documentation.

Fasten your seatbelt. HR will start to look at everything associated with that trip, her record of performance, whether she received preferential treatment from the POS, email exchanges. Her independent disclosure of all pertinent email exchanges adds to her credibility.

One takeaway I got from Bigger's post is that he provided a strategic view and roadmap. HR is a "nuts and bolts" tactical tool you have chosen to get to NC. All the other tools should be viewed within the context of "Bigger's Big Picture" and the destination you chose.

Yeah, when she goes to HR she is going to be telling them everything and being completely honest. She met with the lawyer once more yesterday who still recommended not going to HR as this doesn't protect her. I already knew this and told her I don't care anymore and she needs to disclose to HR or quit. She is thinking about it today and bringing it up once more to MC and see what he thinks but will probably end up trying her luck with HR.

She hasn't use EAP but had been seeing her therapist because of all of this so she could disclose that? This thing is a mess. I got mad at her last night about being wishy washy but I probably should be more understanding as this is hard for her too.

I think that once this gets out, he will tell as many people who will listen and everyone will know.

Why would he do that, and if he does, so what. Then everyone at work will know what a real scumbag he is.

He might as well just get a t-shirt that says, I ruin marriages with married women here at work. The guys are going to look at him as a joke and the women will look at him with disgust.

She met with the lawyer once more yesterday who still recommended not going to HR as this doesn't protect her.

Protect her from what. YES, she can get fired and he would also be fired for violating company policy.

All your wife needs to do is to tell the basic facts, she screwed up, had an affair while traveling and now she wants to fix her marriage and this guy continues to hit on her.

Either do it or drop it. There is no in between really, either do it or she continues to work with the guy.

I know this is a hard decision, because sooner or later this guy will hook up with some other woman at work and forget your wife.

You could threaten him in a legal way, you could have your lawyer write him a legal letter stating that anymore advances towards Mrs..... will result in a harassment lawsuit.

There are thing you can do to get this guy away from your wife.

I am wondering, are you really not trusting your wife not to start this affair again.

Why would he do that, and if he does, so what. Then everyone at work will know what a real scumbag he is.

He might as well just get a t-shirt that says, I ruin marriages with married women here at work. The guys are going to look at him as a joke and the women will look at him with disgust.

He has been there for 20+ years and could just tell people whatever and give her a bad rep (deserved ofc). So there is that, but I don't think people will care that much beyond them just thinking they are both scummy. Doesn't mean that she has to have a bad work experience, just something she is concerned with (shouldn't have fucked him then, right??).

Protect her from what.

The added sexual harassment she would be complaining about doesn't 100% protect her from getting fired, is what the lawyer said. I agree with you, if she tells the facts and lays it all out there, I don't see why they would fire her unless they think she'll be a bigger problem if she stays.

You could threaten him in a legal way, you could have your lawyer write him a legal letter stating that anymore advances towards Mrs..... will result in a harassment lawsuit.

They lawyer recommended that she write an email to this effect and meet with him (record it) and say this. Her concern is that once he knows she may rat him out, he may find a way to make her performance appear to suffer and, from my perspective, it doesn't fix the ultimate goal here which is to get her away from him so we can both start to move on.

She needs to report to HR or quit. She knows and gets it. She is leaning heavily towards reporting EVERYTHING to HR and just see where it leads. I don't see them firing her and it will get us on the path that Bigger and Timeless alluded to. I need to start rebuilding trust with her if we are to successfully R and right now, it's SUPER hard to trust her with him actively trying to start it back up at least once a week.

Basically what she’s saying is that she doesn’t want to go to HR.

She has the attorney that reiterates that she might get fired.

She’s hoping MC will convince you that it isn’t necessary.

To me – getting fired or keeping the job is haggling over whether to take the Volvo or the truck. Frankly for now – for getting the journey started – both will help in getting motion from where you are. It’s more of a question which will better help in getting you to your destination. Maybe taking the reliable and fuel-efficient Volvo will get your along for now (not telling HR). But maybe you get stuck in mud a mile from your driveway. The truck would have gotten through that (telling HR).

What is YOUR preference? Why? Is it for the right reasons?

I have a feeling she still doesn’t get the depth of the damage caused.

Desert – that might PARTIALLY be because you haven’t gotten over to her what YOU need.

Have you considered a controlled separation?

With “controlled” I mean a temporary separation where you both get your act together. Focus on what YOU want. Controlled because there are rules in place (more-or-less an honor-agreement) about not dating others and simply focusing on what it is you want from a marriage.

p.s. I am willing to bet a lot that the affair is known in the office. Not that it makes a difference, but come on… you say she was drinking with OM and other work-buddies the night she slept at his beach-house. No ass-grabbing, arm too long on the shoulder, looks…. People pick up on these things and the rumor is enough to get things started. It’s not an issue – except it really diminishes her fear of this being common knowledge or OM spreading the word. At worst it becomes confirmed rather than a rumor.

Like Bigger said...

I think so much focus has been put on this HR thing, that you have lost sight of the fact your wife had an affair, needs to explain the why and figure out how she will never do this again.

The HR thing and her working there with this scumbag has completely sidetrack the real issue.

And yes, coworkers know. It is amazing how the WW thinks no one knows what is really going on. I called one of my wife's coworkers, a guy I only met once and asked him who my wife was being friendly with, and he told me the name, how they acted at work and leaving every lunch together.

Coworkers know.

She met with the lawyer once more yesterday who still recommended not going to HR as this doesn't protect her.

Then WTF does "protect" her!? What course of action did they recommend? Were you at the meeting?

Is the attorney looking at a big payday by getting this situation to the point that they will take on a harassment lawsuit? That's BS.

Bigger and others have tried to impress on you that the goal is to get out of infidelity, not save her job. Now she is driving the train as to whether to go to HR!? And you're going to discuss with the MC!? WTF would a MC know about getting out of workplace harassment other than collecting more fees from you and the insurance company.

All of this is just delay, delay, delay.

Just f'ing tell her that if she doesn't go this week that you are. DM, you really need to move this along. It has ripened to the stage where you got what you wanted and that is proof that he is not leaving her alone.

If you don't press this with her you signal to her that she can drag her feet about every other aspect you try to put into place.

Here is a suggestion of how to handle you going to HR: all of the above documentation in previous posts plus that you are meeting with them because she fears for her job, you (and she?)fear retaliation by the POS toward her.

Again, you got the smoking gun the lawyer said you needed (other than the BS of waiting 1-2 months).

It really is as simple as taking the step of outing the affair to the employer and notifying them of his harassment in order to enforce NC.

I'm in your corner and urging you on to do something about the POS and your wife still working together.

You are killing yourself by a death of a thousand cuts over this step.

Guys, I am in agreement with you all. I'm not going to let her not tell HR AND keep her job. I have told her that my absolute needs at this point from her are to stop working with OM (HR or quit) and to figure out the why. I haven't pushed the why part yet as she is struggling enough with the job piece. I told her I don't care if she gets fired. We'll figure it out (will be tough but this just isn't going to work between us if she is working with him).

She's scared of going to HR, but she is heavily leaning towards going to them as opposed to quitting. I think MC will agree (it was my recommendation that we discuss it tonight, not hers).

I agree that she does not fully appreciate what she has done yet. I don't know if she ever will. She can see how much pain I'm in but until you experience it yourself, I don't see how she can appreciate it. Her telling me she disagrees with me that we had nothing to celebrate with our anniversary just showed me she doesn't really get it.

I have not considered a separation. She had initially wanted one for the reasons you just stated (and she didn't know how I was going to react) but idk. I think just taking this one step at a time (HR/Quit, WHY, What can I do) will help a lot. Just have to take that first step. It's probably one of the hardest steps to take (the others don't have as many consequences that are out of your control) but she has to take it.

I also agree that others prob suspect something at her work, but she doesn't think so and no amount of me explaining how dumb that sounds will change her opinion.

Timeless- All of her complaints are a "he said/she said". She only has one text from him (recommending a song to her that he thought she'd like and her responding with leave me alone). The lawyer's goal is to get him to leave her alone at work and just keep it all under wraps. This is great in theory but doesn't coincide with what we need as a couple. Hence me telling her quit or tell HR. It is going to happen this week. She just has to get her head around it. I completely agree with your points. I'll get a copy of the letter we wrote and post it here. It details everything and is as good as it's gonna get in terms of admitting she was wrong and tried to fix it and whatnot. It will be in HR's hands and I really really don't see why they would fire her.

[This message edited by desertmirage at 11:20 AM, November 8th (Tuesday)]

She's scared of going to HR, but she is heavily leaning towards going to them as opposed to quitting. I think MC will agree (it was my recommendation that we discuss it tonight, not hers).

You and her walk into HR today and tell the facts, and especially this guy will not leave her alone.

Get it done!

All you are now doing is wasting time, and the more time you waste, the worse it gets.

I don't get her going to the lawyer on her own, the lawyer says one more time and now this same lawyer recommends not telling HR.

WTF is that all about anyway.

This guy is ruining YOUR life, get him out of there, tell HR and move on.

The other elephant in the room is your wife's continual I dont know answers, well damnit, she had better figure it out.

Tell HR today or have your lawyer write a serious legal letter to the OM. Yet I don't think any letter will change the OMs ways, he seems to think he is not in the wrong.

You have wasted so much time, the OM very well could have gone to HR already and blamed your wife for harassment. Until HR gets the full story from your wife, you are risked too much.

Today, get it done.

Because right now, where is your wife, in another closed door meeting with him.

When did your wife have time to even meet with a lawyer yesterday during work hours.

You have got to start being proactive and STOP waiting for your wife.

The lawyer needs solid proof to have a case. There is none. She called him over her lunch break if it matters. I was invited to join but was helping my parents move so didn't. I knew what he was going to say anyways.