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Thanks for the clarification, wwtl. It makes me think this TT is a big deal.

You're far from an ideal BS, wwtl, but if you ask a question, and your W wants to R, she cannot lie. She can say, 'I'll tell you in MC,' but she cannot lie. (Of course, then she needs to set up MC sessions for the purpose of having some support while she comes clean.)

I'm not sure pride is a big factor here. It could be your sense of being entitled to the truth has been stepped on yet again, and you're just plain angry. You know what's going on with you better than I do, though.

You can still R. You can set up requirements, monitor them, and end R if your W doesn't meet them. I still think she's a candidate for R, but she needs guidance. Don't let pride keep you from R'ing, if that's what you want.

You can still D. You certainly have enough reason to conclude that this M will never be what you want it to be, and that you'd like to start over.

I know, I know ... even when you thought you knew what you wanted, implementing your 'decision' was the hard part....

[This message edited by sisoon at 9:59 AM, March 23rd (Thursday)]

What is killing WWTL is that he was on the verge of returning to the marriage, now this.

It is not the end of the world, but it puts a world of importance on the polygraph, if he chooses to do so.

It is not out of the realm of possibility that he just throws in the towel, and he would be justified in doing so.

Longforgotten said that your daughter is disrespecting you. I would gently say that that might be PART of it, but she may also be blown away, confused, and wanting to reach out to the both of you. Perhaps you could spend a little time with her before leaving? I would bet she is hurting big time, even if she doesn't show it and/or appear confused about who to believe.

WWTL, if you were still living with her, I would be very concerned about you choosing not to do anything for the time being because you have used that as a crutch in the past to fall back into complacency and make yourself miserable. But, you're separated so take all the time you need. You know a polygraph will be on the table for R. Don't let her do one for you because you need and should be a part of the process.

And for the love of all that is holy, STOP communicating with her! 180 her and show her consequences FOR ONCE! Don't answer the phone. Don't answer her texts. Turn it off. Change your number. Do whatever it takes. Tell her to email you only and only check it on occasion. You need to shake up her world and stop letting her know that she can use you as a shoulder to cry on over her own fuck up. It's codependent and it needs to stop especially if D is a real possibility.

[This message edited by nekonamida at 11:48 AM, March 23rd (Thursday)]

long forgotten, have you read anything I ever wrote? Where did I ever said I accepted what she did? I have made it clear that none of what she did was anything short of disgusting. I have gone to the point of separating from her and sleeping with other women. I just said that the TT with the bed could be lumped in with her other shitty acts and not looked as a stand alone.

She also has not recruited my daughter. If anyone has 20 year old daughters they will get that they have minds of their own. They know that I am strong and don't need, or really want any of their help. Their mother is weak. Which is obvious or she wouldnt have done what she did. They are just trying to support her, and keep their family intact.

Still Living, I see your point, I haven't made it easy for her to be forthcoming, but why should I. She fucked up and if she has to take the heat. She deserves everything that comes to her. I was never physical with her, but after what she did everything she got, including me leaving she brought on herself. She also brought this new drama on herself by lying to my face for six years.

mr healed, I get what you are saying. The whole things make no sense. I think I am past trying to figure out why other than they were both incredibly selfish and stupid and were once again willing to put their own interests before mine. Even after she crushed my world.

Right now I am not thinking about rules. or guidelines, or even finding out if she was telling the truth. I am going to stay to see my daughter, but if they start I am out of here. After she leaves who knows. I will tell you the couples golf and walks are out. I am back to doing whatever the hell I want. If she doesn't like it she can pack her bags and get out of dodge.

Fair enough, I can appreciate what you are saying about the independence of grown Ds.

I hope for your sake that you can enjoy some time with your D despite everything else that is occurring. As you already seem to know, this latest problem with your W will "hold" for a few days.

"but why should I."

IMO, this is what is required for reconciliation to be successful. You both need to meet in the middle and duke it out. You can't process the pain each from your corners.

Six years of trying is more than respectable. Maybe it's just time to move on.

I'm sorry.

WWTL, So very sorry you're still getting TT'ed 6 years out. That's a kick in the gut for sure. I'm sure if I now asked my fWH to take a poly the I'd get a parking lot confession as well. I won't ask because I don't need another factoid to feel more pain about. The affair is in the past and I'm trying like hell to look to the future. We too had a long term goal through retirement in FL and I don't want to give that up.

Maybe it's time for another break. Maybe send her home with DD for a while so you can process this. I can see you're shutting down again which really just hurts you more in the long run rather than going through it thoroughly. Don't let it eat you alive for 6 more years. The stress of that will only earn you an early grave.

Sending you virtual strength, take care of you now WWTL.

I've just recently dealt with delayed TT myself. It sucks. It really, truly sucks. There's no other way to slice it. Going along for even more years with a WS who is manipulating you by manipulating the information that you are basing your decisions on truly sucks. They have no right to do it regardless of how scared they were of the outcome. We BS's deserved for them to muscle it up enough to face their shit by telling us the truth. We deserved to have the power imbalance that they created with their lies restored by them doing everything that it took to face up to the truth.

I look at my WH and know that he simply didn't have what it took to face his shit. That telling the truth and facing his shit was the absolute last resort for him. He never wanted to be a complete and total POS. So when he made decisions in life that led to him being precisely that, he completely lacked the emotional fortitude to handle it in a healthy way. Instead, he tried to dig his way out of the hole he had created for himself by digging even deeper.

How you choose to handle it from this point forward is entirely up to you. You can decide to throw in the towel if you want to. You can sit back and see if your feelings about this matter changes. You can also decide to stay with her and rail at her until you get your pound of flesh. Or you can do any combination of these things or even toss in a few things I didn't mention. The point is that you have every right to be upset about this and you have every right to respond to it however you see fit.

For me, I am reaching my limit on just how much of my WH's bullshit I can tolerate. I'm getting to the point where I no longer give a flying flip about what issues he has that stop him from being the honest, caring, genuine, and honorable husband that I want and need. I no longer give a crap about whether or not he was such a total coward that he absolutely could not reach down and find an ounce of courage inside of him even if he were using both hands. It's not my job to keep taking one for the team in order for him to continue F-ing everything up with his ongoing nonsense.

I can't help but compare this to getting pulled over for speeding. I know how much of a relief it can be to get a reprieve by getting a warning instead of getting a ticket. In a lot of ways, I feel that as a BS, I am the cop handing out a warning ticket to my WH. He hasn't sped again (which I relate to cheating), but he has had substantial trouble with becoming the upstanding citizen that I expect him to be. At some point, the warnings stop (me being upset) and the real penalties begin (divorce). I like being a nice guy who lets someone off with a warning just as much as the next guy, but there are limits. I have to decide where they are for me and enforce them.

Where did I ever said I accepted what she did? I have made it clear that none of what she did was anything short of disgusting. I have gone to the point of separating from her and sleeping with other women. I just said that the TT with the bed could be lumped in with her other shitty acts and not looked as a stand alone.

Exactly, you didn't and still don't accept it. And my guess is you never will.

Look at it this way, decades ago when you first met your wife, you learned her personality and her morality. Her honesty and loyalty, her integrity and her out look on life. Her goals for the future. The entire package. And you accepted her. She was what you were looking for so you married her and made a life.

Now that marriage is over and the woman you were married to is gone. Now you are considering this new woman as a possible mate. But this woman isn't honest, she hides things from you. You see that her loyalty and integrity are questionable, she has cheated before. You find flaws with her morality and are disgusted by details of her former sex life. You seem to be having great problems accepting that.

To R with this woman you will have to accept that this is who she is, and this is what she is capable of. Doesn't mean you have to ever accept what she did. I apologize for my earlier, (Most men would accept...), comment. Sometimes a crude comment will get the OP to stop, and take the time to think about it. That was my intention.

As for your daughter, I didn't say your wife was recruiting her, and I don't think your wife is. I said she is disrespecting you like your wife. Of course not in the same way, and definitely not to the same degree. She is being selfish. Like you said, she is trying to keep the family together but she should respect you enough to stop when you ask her to. I know your wife needs the kids and it's great that they are there for her. All I'm saying is they should show a little more respect for their parents space.

[This message edited by longforgotten at 9:02 AM, March 24th (Friday)]

Waited,

I am responding because I just happened by your post and read "tools" and "truck" which made me wonder if your wife had cheated on your with a contractor. Then read your profile and confirmed my suspicion. I want you to know that I just did the same thing to my husband. After 9.5 years of marriage and never even batting an eye at another man, I wound up in an emotional and sexual affair with the contractor that renovated our house. My heart aches for you as it does for my husband. We are only 8 days after DD but I'm already beginning to realize the scope of my issues. I want you to know that I do love my husband and respect him. That being said, there was something about this "manly man guy's guy workman type" that kindled something in me. Now I'm seeing the irony because I'm seeing how weak and sans-balls the contractor really is and how ridiculously strong my husband actually is. All I can say is that if your wife is anything like me she is a secretive person with some serious deep-seated screwed up need for excitement and drama, as well as an oscar-worthy ability to act and lie. If she cares at all, she'll gladly do the polygraph. Don't baby or coddle her. She's a big girl and made her own bed so to speak. Don't treat her like she's fragile. Do what you need to do to be able to trust her again, and if she can't handle that, she needs to be kicked to the curb. I truly feel that like an alcoholic who is being enabled, people like your wife and I will not become trustworthy, respectable people without being forced to face the shit out of our SOMETIMES SONDEEP WE ARE UNAWARE WE HAVE THEM type issues. I wish you every peace and happiness in the world.

[This message edited by swinters at 2:39 PM, March 24th (Friday)]

WWTL

I want to thank you for your post. I have been putting off moving forward with the poly. I will now move forward.

What is disheartening about your post is that when you said you were moving forward with the poly that she asked what you would ask. Because she knew she was keeping secrets. And if you weren't going to ask that particular question would she have told you? Probably not since she's known for six years that she was lying.

My thoughts are to have a session asking a lot of questions and getting the answers and then just ask did you answer all the questions truthfully. Not sure if that's ok but it's a start.

The bottom line for me is that I am still to angry to make any decisions.

Furious, I am just so pissed that she lied to my face for so long. She is right that I would have blown my stack if I found out about the coffee. But I would have blown because she did it! In my opinion she should have bitten the bullet and taken the shots.

We are not talking much, but she is still hanging her hat on that she just wasn't thinking clearly and she didn't meet him for any emotional reason. Personally I agree with FL and think that is bullshit. Even though it was a sexual affair, there was a 2 or 3 week build up of emotional affair setting up the sex.

The thing is like the bed, at the time I probably could have lumped it into the affair and not have another reason to be just so pissed.

Swinters, I came very close to chiming in on your thread, but in my current mood I decided not to. I realize the WW forum is protected and I was not sure I could post without crossing a line. But since you posted here, I will tell you what I would have said. The fact that you are giving so much headspace to this guy is something I would have never tolerated. Not for one minute. I would have bagged your clothes and dumped them on his doorstep. Your husband is going to look back at this time and analyze over and over what how he reacted after dday, and in hindsight how he handled the situation. I don't know anything about him, but as bad as the affair was, you giving the guy all this attention, to the point of meeting him again, no matter what the reason, would be devastating. He can't turn back the clock on what you did as it was done in secret, but he does have some say in what he is willing to let you do after he found out. This is so traumatic to any man. (not diminishing what women go through). What has held me back in r is not only not forgiving her, but not forgiving myself for staying. He is going to look back at this and see and kill himself for being so weak. I am not saying that any guy who forgives is weak, but someone who sits by while his wife rambles on about the other guy frankly is.

The last thing is I don't believe my wife loved me as much as she says she did or does. Who does this to someone they love. This however is kind of a grey area. But don't for a minute think that you respected him. That is not grey. You just didn't. to think that you did in the long term is going to hurt any chance or R. Bite the bullet and admit you didn't. This guy was an alpha, and you respected him and his needs over your husband.

I am sorry for the rant, but I really don't want you to make the mistakes that we made. Even though I am angry for your husband, I do hope you make it.

Hope, the crazy thing is we were in the best space we have been in since the affair. We we actually getting to the point of maybe getting this past this and becoming a couple again. Doing couple things and having fun. I really wasn't doing the polly expecting to find anything. I was doing it to move us ahead another step. I was shocked to hear this.

I had a calm rational discussion with my daughter who I picked up from the airport last night. She understands my anger, but of course thinks it was just a cup of coffee and didn't mean anything. I explained the lies were what hurt, but not sure she got it. She just thinks that because we were doing so well for the last weeks that this is just a blip.

I told my wife I don't want to hear anything about a polly until I decided what I am going to do. I did lay down rules that if she goes ahead and does it I am done. Its just too bad you need rules to govern behavior of you spouse.

WWTL you are absolutely right about my thread on Wayward side. However I hope you will read my more recent posts and see that i am truly being humbled by this experience and realizing the issues are all with ME, not with him, and that I have alot of work to do if I want to save our marriage and ever regain trust. I'm being properly right-sized. And that's the truth. I hope it's enough in the end, and I hope whatever is right and best for you is what happens in the end for you. As for OM, all I feel for him today is pity and disgust (along with nausea for what I used to see in him). I consider that God showing me what I was blinded to. Thanks for your honesty.

After having been betrayed it is hard to believe in the partner who wants to stay..."Why " do they want to stay..There are often ulterior motives..

I think these whys need to be delved into just as carefully as the "whys" of cheating in the first place..

Many BS's have endured false R's..Pretty much what you are describing..

Very common for a WS to stay in a marriage his/her heart isn't into...Bottom line is that the WS isn't particularly fond of giving up the fringe benefits of an established life to start over again..

Swinters, I am glad you are making some progress. I just am concerned you are fooling yourself. You were so focused on the other guy. It seems surprising that in the course of a few days you could just do such a 180. I am probably a little sensitive right now as after dday my wife said the same thing and that she was hit with a icebath that woke her up immediately. Except that was a lie. She ended up meeting him a couple of weeks after.

I hope you realize what a tough road you have in front of you. I was angry right away. It seems others here take some time to get angry.

You asked that I do what I need to do to trust my wife again. I will never fully trust my wife again. I wouldnt have before the latest TT, and certainly not now.

For me it comes down to am I better off with her, or starting over. That is still TBD.

I just hope you are being honest with yourself and your husband. It is easy to say you aren't thinking about him, but harder to do. If you still are, and I get with the emotional component you might be, air it out with a therapist and not burden you husband with it. He is feeling emasculated enough.

I do really wish you well

I really hate saying this - but surely you know in your heart of hearts that she is still lying.

I know what it is like to love someone with all of your heart and soul. The hardest thing I ever had to do was to leave the "love of my life" (back then) because I had to protect myself.

I am now many years later remarried to a great man. I can't tell you how just content it is to not have to worry about lies, omission, etc. I just never knew a relationship could be this easy and so happy.

We are both retired. We travel, we do things with friends and lots of the time we just spend time with each other - no muss, no fuss.

I wish you that kind of a life too.

One of the hardest things in my life is to lose hope/faith in people...

I am going thru this right now with a loved one, not infidelity related..I didn't/don't deserve the way I am being treated, the cold shoulder..

I give him ( family member ) some benefit of the doubt because I love him, and this treatment of me is way out of character for him..So I wait for explanations..

Had it been somebody else treating me this way, I would have told him to go suck a bag full of dicks...( This phrase cracks me up, a poster here on SI turned us on to it)..

But there comes a time, when enough is enough and we have to distance ourselves for our own health and sanity..

I'll chime in that for some WS it takes a while for the fog to clear; and it's a fog of excrement. Since,they buried their heads so far up their waste removal systems and sometimes out through their esophagus's and into the adultery co-conspirators waste removal system. That's a whole lot of excrement filling the heads and drowning out functioning brain cells. All that remains for some WS for a while is the primal functions until the fog clears. The rational higher functioning brain has been covered in excrement and isn't functioning and empathy is smothered.

For what it's worth my SAWS carried on a 16 plus year's long term Adultery in my house and in my bed with a supposed friend of mine. Even before he finally fessed up to it being in my actual bed and the possible length; I let him know in no uncertain terms (I caught him, he didn't man up and confess to the adultery) that the bastard he had become deserved the adultery co-conspirator and her unfaithfulness and he could have her.

He didn't want her, and (if he is to be believed) never wanted to have an actual life, especially marriage with her. He only wanted the fucking and the ego kibbles.

I know that doesn't make it any better Waitedwaytolong. It's been a long journey so far, of him working on what allowed him to make these destructive choices and me working on the pain of those choices and the double betrayal.

I still love him (not like before), and the question is will he become the man God designed him to be, or will he choose passivity and not working on himself. So far; he is actively working on himself and what he was trying to medicate with the Adultery.