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It is pretty standard when in self preservation mode they go to church, maybe even start quoting scripture, etc.

Only long term actions really mean anything.

Most can hold a facade for awhile but.......

Beware, words and short term actions don't mean much.

I got into the car today to go for a hike with WH. I went becAuse it was a nice day. I triggered as soon as I sat down. The seat was moved way forward. I am a tall girl. The whore was short. I instantly flashed back to all the times I was in the car during the A and the seat was forward - it was often.

So I asked why (And i was calm Sounding) the seat was forward. He knew why I asked and sarcastically said it was because the AP was in the car. Why else? He was angry.

Is it common for your WS to be asshats when you trigger? Why would he be such a jerk?

He acted like a jerk during the A too So I Told him how I expected or needed him to support me during a trigger. I had already told him his car is bad for me. He and the AP went on lots of driving trips, weekends. They loved spending time together in the car. The car is in many of her photos. Needless to say it ruined the walk. And the day. We barely spoke and I walked 40 minutes home so I didn’t have to go in the car again.

[This message edited by Tallgirl at 10:39 PM, January 6th (Sunday)]

So I asked why (I was totally calm Sounding) the seat was forward. He knew why I asked and sarcastically said it was because the AP was in the car. Why else? He was angry.

Is it common for your WS to be asshats when you trigger? Why would he be such a jerk?

He acted like a jerk during the A. So today I Told him how I expected or needed him to support me during a trigger. I already told him his car is bad for me. He and the AP went on lots of driving trips, weekends. They loved spending time together in the car. The car is in many of her photos. Needless to say it ruined the walk. And the day. We barely spoke and I walked 40 minutes home so I didn’t have to go in the car again.

His actions say you aren't in R.

Sorry, at this time you are accepting his behavior. Why?

[This message edited by Marz at 10:37 PM, January 6th (Sunday)]

Hi Marz, We are not in R, we are in the grey zone. I told myself I would not make a decision in anger to R or D and I am still deciding. WH knows that. I have been distant and there is a lot of tension on my side. WH angers quickly and then often says or does things that are in contradiction to what he says he wants which is R. I think the strain and self hate get to him and voila he becomes an ass.

I wish he would be insistent, emotionally sensitive, hold his arms open, ask to hold me and wipe away my tears but he is in the basement feeling bad for himself. Such a mess.

Hopefully tomorrow will be a better day.

About church being a short term way to feel better. It might be. He hadn’t been to church for over six years except for Xmas.

Your wayward husband needs to understand the nature of triggers and how to help you.

There is no reason for his insensitivity. Perhaps he does not know about triggers and what he should do.

(((Tallgirl)))

Tallgirl, I'm sorry you are here. LTSs seem particularly evil. I'm biased, of course.

In an earlier post (one page back) you stated that your WH thought you could have a great marriage and was 100% in. I respectfully disagree given this last post although it could be a temporary slip by him (I don't think so because of other info you've provided).

I'm referring to the passenger seat forward in the car incident. His reaction doesn't indicate he is all in. If he is truly committed to R he has a strange way of showing it. I was glad to see just above that you don't see yourself as being in R.

My WW was a born again Christian as am I. While in her LTA she went to church with me frequently and sat beside me in the pew. Nothing resonated with her that she was breaking a Commandment. I was quite involved with the church and church family. Went to a few lunches with the church family after Sunday service and Christmas parties at the Minister's and supper at other members home. What I'm referring to is that church and church attendance is not guarantee of anything.

Having said all that, I attend church regularly. I've changed churches to attend because I didn't want to attend one that I attended with my WW. There were other reasons, too, but that was the main one. Instead of driving 15 km to church I now drive 60. If I should be fortunate enough to meet a lady that I want to spend the rest of my life with the first requirement would be that she be a born again Christian. Other attributes come after that. So I'm not writing off church and/or Christianity. It's certain people, of any belief, that are the problem - not the institution.

Back to the reason for me posting: given the information you've provided, you are right. You are not in R and he hasn't shown he is all in. Given the little information it seems to me that his method would be to just get over it, rugsweep and move on all happy. Works for him.

He desperately wants R, he is remorseful,

Tallgirl, empathy and contrition are the primary indicators of being in a state of remorse. Your WH is not remorseful. He may say he is, he may be doing some thing, but his responses to you are evidence that his state of mind is not that of remorse. To say to you what he did in the car was the complete opposite of what empathy and remorse is.

He says some words and does some things. If he understands that R is impossible without a deep commitment to empathy, and still does not show empathy, then he really does not want R. He much more likely wants you to move on so he can move on too.

Tallgirl your WH is very insensitive. He doesn't really understand your needs. In this case you need to spell it out for him. If he wants a chance to R with you, you need to outline what you need from him.

Marz, Amanda, Steady, Ripped, DIFM (does it mean Do it for me??), I hear you. Thank you, I wasn't seeing this, and I think there is lots of truth in what you say, and you all agree.

I am stuck in a cycle of not stating my needs, then getting pissed off because he is doing it wrong or not at all. And I keep doing it. I am not good at making demands - I put him and then my kids before myself for 26 years, and then my work etc… I’m not a martyr by a long shot, I just haven’t spent time with me. Here are some things I can think to ask for ... I will honestly tell you that I am so disgusted by what he did, while I’d love intimacy (because I have been lonely as hell for way too many years), I can’t. Sometimes I can’t even look at him.

While writing this list of expectations for R,as you can see, I had some emotional (oops) diversions. Is this something that I should share with him – in a modified form of course? What’s missing? My head is all about emotions these last few weeks - it's exhausting. And seriously I am so practical this is ridiculous for me.

1. No lying. Ever. Deal breaker.

2. Go to IC and figure out why you did this, why you didn’t respect me enough to ask for a divorce when you were in love with another person, why you put our family in danger, why you broke up with her so often and then went back to her even after DD1. Why did you sleep with her again. Deal breaker. Please figure out how to be someone you respect.

3. Own what you did. Tell me why so I know that it won’t happen. Dig deep. Own it to the boys. Deal breaker.

4. When I trigger comfort me. Or let me scream at you. Apologize for crushing my soul and being relentlessly selfish for well over 5 years. Offer comfort not anger. It’s not about you, it’s about how hurt I am. If you can’t, leave the vicinity or if it is not for you period, simply leave.

5. Tell me weekly that there has been no contact. Stop making me ask, I hate it. Tell me if you want contact, don’t hide it. If you want her or someone else tell me immediately, that’s ok, you can have your dream.

6. Stop telling me that if we want R or to be happily married badly enough it will happen. I never wanted to be an LTA victim, guess what? That happened.

7. Understand I don’t have to love you – love is a gift and it happens when you act lovingly to someone you respect and enjoy. You killed mine. R/love is a gift that is constantly given again each day. Earn it.

8. Where are you? If your plans change, send me a picture, text me or call. Even 30 minutes.

9. If you say you are going to do something, do it. Do not forget it because you are down and never deliver. This is for house choirs, or even cooking dinners. ( asked for 2 times a week, down to nothing again). This makes me resentful, I’m not your freaking mother.

10. Text regularly – and don’t get upset if I don’t always respond. I think about this all the time, sometimes I simply hate this and sometimes you.

11. Do not complain about having no privacy. You should want to show me how good you are. Get an app to show me that there are no deleted emails, texts etc. that I care about. And Hand over the PW to your work computer.

12. Do not spend any extra time in the AP’s city. - He now works 15 minutes from where she lives.

13. Put me first. Make dinners, offer to do things for me – like get groceries, run an errand etc, even if it is the last thing you want. At a bare minimum be a considerate room mate

14. Keep your ring on at all times, tell everyone that you are married. (He used to leave his ring in the car with AP. Saw hundreds of ringless photos). If you want it bad enough… Deal breaker

15. Don’t tell me how to fix this mess – you don’t know either. Ever. You broke us. Admit it.

16. Tell me why you want to R and what you think you should be doing. (Be real, because I know a lot of people smarter than me on SI that have seen it all and can sniff out BS better than me).

17. Give me a copy of all financials. Deal breaker

18. Take care of your health – exercise, sleep and eat.

19. No more punching walls, pounding on tables, or kicking cabinets. Control your anger, or it will hurt us.

Well, I'm exhausted, I am sure you are too reading all that stuff. On a lighter note, I started the day off right - car wouldn't start on a Monday, and I wore my sweater inside out for 2 hours this am. I'd be happy if that was all the problems I had to think about. Oh it would be heaven.

Wearing reversible tomorrow.

[This message edited by Tallgirl at 5:18 PM, January 7th (Monday)]

Yeah, go with the reversible, Tallgirl.

Marriage counsellor had an interesting turn of phrase last night, essentially, the A is with the Betrayed in every breathe.

Felt true to me

[This message edited by Tallgirl at 7:29 AM, January 8th (Tuesday)]

TallGirl-

Love your list - have you communicated it to WH? I learned to ask my WH to repeat to me his understanding of those needs. Perhaps you will do the list in an MC session?

Yes - the A is with the BS at every breath. I suspect that resonates with most BS in the first months/years after dday. It certainly does with me. Hard for us to understand that it is NOT with the WS for every breath.

I can't remember if you / WH have read How to help your spouse heal from your affair by Linda MacDonald. If not, I would get it asap (it's apparently available in a PDF online for free). It's only 100 pages. Both WH and I read it in an afternoon. Personally, I think any WS who doesn't show immediate empathy & contrition should re-read it weekly. They seem to need LOTS of reminders.

Gently - I want to reiterate that, as absolutely excruciatingly difficult it is, after you clearly state your needs, I would do my best to then focus on YOU and YOUR healing. I believe "letting go of the outcome" applies to both the BS and WS. For us, that means getting the strength to know you can file for D tomorrow if a non-negotiable is broken. Not every item on our "list" is an automatic D (at least not on mine), but some are absolutely (eg breaking NC and for me, that includes seeing her on the highway driving 70 mph in the opposite direction - he MUST tell me or I will file... the papers are all drafted). As our strength is regained and we can get to that place of letting go of the outcome, we then begin to see things in a different light. It is really really hard (or at least it has been for me). I can see the changes in ME that I like and think about MY future and MY dreams, wholly separate and apart from my WH. Personally, it's become the desperately needed hope... not hope for the M, but hope for ME. Either the M will work out or it won't... the focus is making sure that I work out MY life.

[This message edited by gmc94 at 11:10 AM, January 8th, 2019 (Tuesday)]

Good reminder GMC,

It is so easy to get caught up in all the mess and forget to eat, sleep or workout. Some times I am an unmotivated emotional blob who hides in the house ...

I absolutely will show him my list, and MC sounds like the right place. I haven't read Linda yet, I've been doing a ton of reading just here. You gave me a good reading list! I have to take breaks - emotional.

I'm not close to getting ready to file for D, I was only thinking S. Feels so big. But I like the confidence it gives you.

MC was good last night - she called out my WH for not listening(at all), she told him he was feeling sorry for himself and to stop, that there was consequences for his actions (she said you must know that - but I'm sure he didn't), that his family had a right to their own reaction. She also said it was OK to have anger -it was normal, but absolutely not ok to act it out (amen). And he listened on the 3rd repeat. About damn time.

AND I actually slept because I felt that it was a grown up convo. Oh and I told him that his reasons for staying married were about him - not about me. It should be about me - why stay married to someone you don't love. Then, with my lady balls out, I told him that he truly needs decide what he wants, if it is not ME, that's totally fine. Didn't even cry.

This week, I loved my MC.

So I feel good for this moment.

Communication is key. Remain calm but let it out in a rational manner if you can. Do not hold things back.

He did this so he needs to own it.

The heavy burden is on him.

It does take to to R if that's what you seek but take some time before you grant it.

If he wants to rugsweep then you'll have no R

You don't need him. He's just a want.

Has anyone had their WS tell you that they know why they did it, they are doing the right things, and no thanks I don't need to do reading or any self discovery. There is some kind of denial.

I'm stunned. And disappointed. The R list will be a very interesting convo.

Chevy, I wanted to thank you for sharing your story - particularly about your faith. I am sorry you are here, yet grateful.

I am impressed by you all. Very insightful, and generous with your experiences and learnings.

Marz, I'm still digesting your want comment. Maybe, you are right I don't need him or M, not sure that the husband I have can be the one I want.

Tallgirl I love your list and I hope you don't mind if I steal it!

My husband was with his ex girlfriend for 13 years before me and told me that their relationship was over when he met me.

He always said he fell crazy in love with me right from the start and knew he would never be able to live without me.

We have been together since 1999 and in 2000 I moved out of state for work and he followed me and proposed the day he moved to be with me and we were married within a year.

I caught him on dating sites and other sites within a year of our move. He says he was just looking for ways to make things more interesting in the bedroom for us, how commendable right?

Fast forward through many questionable times where I have been suspicious. Then in 2015, a time where he was completely hostile and nasty for months towards me and a miserable monster at home...during this time he was secretly spending $200 every other month on Pheremones to attract women. I really have no idea of the extent of his betrayal but I did find out on 11/15/18 that he has been in constant contact with his ex girlfriend the entire time we have been together. In fact, he told me that she is his best friend and he knew that I would be upset that he was always talking to her.

I am having a very difficult time wrapping my head around this EA. He says it has not been physical.

He has had no time or patience to ever communicate with me and now I know why. He gave that part of himself to her.

I can't even believe that he can still say to me that she is his best friend, he has repeated that whenever I question him.

He has been married to me for 18 years but she has been his best friend for over 30 years.

He says he has cut off contact with her.

Am I supposed to believe that he will not be in contact with her ever again??

I called her, she said he used to come back to see her for the first couple of years after we had moved out of state.

Am I really supposed to believe that he hasn't been physical with her after they had slept together for 13 years previously??

I feel our entire relationship has been a lie.

If we didn't have three beautiful daughters I would have left him.

I am so sick to my stomach I can't stand it.

We are trying to work on our relationship but I have not been nearly tough enough on him.

I have made things too easy and yet I am burning up inside with anger, hurt and rage.

He has robbed me of the last 19 years and I am furious and devastated.

He promptly deleted his social media accounts that I knew about to erase any more evidence.

He could have other secret ones for all I know, he is very clever.

I wanted to use a digital investigator to retrieve all of the deleted messages and social media contact but I could not afford it.

I know that she is not the only one he is involved with either, I found facebook and Instagram messages to another woman from his past telling her how hot and beautiful she is numerous times and I have caught him in many lies.

I want to try to reconcile but there are days that I just don't know if I can do this.

How can I ever believe anything he ever says?

I don't know if I can waste the rest of my life with someone that I will never be able to trust again.

We are trying to work on our relationship

What is he doing? Are we 'we' or 'you' working on the relationship?

Deceived, please feel free to use the list and improve on it. There is a good list in the

Healing Library too. Though I'd say it may not have the same spin... :).

I am so sorry you are part of SI, it's not the club anyone wants to join, there's tons of good info and support here - lots of wise experienced people.

I think you need to go with your gut, much of what you describe about your husband's behavior indicates that he is lying - and I expect there is more to this story. There is a long way to go to real R.

My WH during his A was often monster - angry, disrespectful, rude and cruel. It was the cheating and lying - living 2 lives, one with her and one with me. (poor guy had it tough). I had 2 DDays - between the 2, he was angry, rude, told me he didn't love me and that we were finished, when I said good, he backed off and wanted to reconcile again. He was back with the AP (full in). When we had DDay2 my world blew up but at least I know what situation I am in. I'm not sure I can forgive him or trust him again. We are in MC, but this is only possible because he had told me everything. Now he has to unlearn being a selfish son of a bitch through IC, and work harder than he ever has before.

So when you say you are not sure you want to reconcile, I feel you girl! Me either. We don't have to - we do have to do what is right for us whether it is R or D.

Please read the list of what WS should do when truly wanting to reconcile. It gives you a good idea of what behavior you should be seeing for R.

(((DeceivedMe))) Take care of yourself.

Deceived - so sorry you are here.

Your story sounds painfully familiar to mine, only my WH only dated his POSOW for a few months and he never told me she existed, let alone told me they were in contact.

I would be surprised if it was not also a PA - why keep someone secret unless there was some attraction?

In any event, I share all the feelings you expressed, particularly that my life has been a lie.

Other BS seem better able to avoid that one, but I have not been very successful.

Is your WH going NC with the OW? If not, there is no R.

You say you want to reconcile. I was the same way right after dday. However, I soon realized that healing must come FIRST. Before I can consider attempting to R with my WH, I need to do some hard work to heal myself. AND, WH must also do a ton of work on his side of the street as well (starting with living honestly, which seems to be elusive for him). I have found that as I regain my footing and strength, I become less & less concerned with R and more & more concerned with ME.

I don't know what will happen to my M. But I do know that I will survive and thrive with or without him.

Godspeed and hugs to you. It's a difficult journey, but there is hope and light ahead.