SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

DevastatedDee..you're having a hard time wrapping your head around it because you had an RA. You clearly think it's acceptable behavior. You've justified it.

While I can understand the reasoning behind an RA, I can't comprehend doing it. If I had, then maybe I would have a hard time reading some of the posts on this thread.

[This message edited by HellFire at 10:09 AM, September 15th (Friday)]

This is quite a struggle. People that have RAs are generally broken, confused, and going through a whirlwind of emotion and pain. I'm not saying it's ok. It's not. And HP is acting like a shitty human (stop being shitty, HP). And we are harsh on people who have, or are contemplating RAs. It's never a good idea.

I know that when I did it I didn't see that I had a marriage and was leaving. Maybe that's a justification, maybe it was just my reality at the time. I didn't do it trying to R. It happened on DDay and I certainly wasn't in my right mind. I woke up the next morning and broke up with my WH party because of what I had done and my realization of how messed up I clearly was, and only decided to stay when he broke down and wept.

The problem with this thinking, Dee, is it really truly is Wayward thinking. Waywards think things like "my marriage is already over" when they have an affair. Maybe your W/BH didn't THINK it was over. He didn't want it to be over. He royally screwed up and destroyed his marriage and maybe it should have been over--but it wasn't yet. This is similar to all the other justifications that WSes make. The justification I REALLY hate to hear any wayward make (and which my WW did) was "I thought the marriage was over" or "I thought I was going to divorce you then changed my mind."

That's why you don't cheat. It's why you wait until you ARE divorced, then start new relationships. It's selfish and impatient, no matter the state of the relationship, to cheat without truly knowing what you want.

Anyway. Dee, I'm sure you get a lot of heat for being an MH so I don't want to be harsh. Just trying to share my opinion of those justifications. RA thinking is really no different than WS thinking, except that those having an RA generally have more valid reasons for being unhappy in the M than an original WS.

^^ What TwiceWounded said. How many WSs have come on here, or their BS have, with the excuse of "well, I felt like the M was over"? In my 7 1/2 years here, probably thousands.

I don't agree at all. When someone punches you in the face, they are an immediate threat to your health, well being, and even life. And the immediate threat is probably going to punch you again if you don't act quickly. They may even try to kill you.

As devastating emotionally and risky as infidelity is, the immediate threat is over on DDay. Sure, the WS could keep cheating but the BS doesn't have to sleep with them and expose themself. They can use protection. They have options. When someone punches you in the face, your only options are punch back or run and turning your back on someone who just punched you is not a good idea. The two really aren't comparable.

It's not directly comparable, fair point. I still don't think the crime is equal when comparing a WS who hit first with infidelity and a BS who had an RA. Once you've hit the point of an RA, the marriage is already trashed.

@DevastatedDee

Maybe that's a justification, maybe it was just my reality at the time.

This is you trying to justify right there. Much of what you have posted in this thread is you trying to justify. You haven't really owned it.

RA thinking is really no different than WS thinking, except that those having an RA generally have more valid reasons for being unhappy in the M than an original WS.

This is spot on Twice Wounded.

The justification I REALLY hate to hear any wayward make (and which my WW did) was "I thought the marriage was over" or "I thought I was going to divorce you then changed my mind."

Yep, and let's add my FWH's justification to that "I thought you didn't love me anymore." (so I wouldn't care what he did)

Randy, maybe you need to raise up a little bit and get on some moral high ground. Encouraging others that have left their morals behind that they are fine in doing so is not a good look for anyone.

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 2:37 PM, September 15th (Friday)]

DevastatedDee..you're having a hard time wrapping your head around it because you had an RA. You clearly think it's acceptable behavior. You've justified it.

While I can understand the reasoning behind an RA, I can't comprehend doing it. If I had, then maybe I would have a hard time reading some of the posts on this thread.

No, I don't think it's acceptable behavior. I have a pretty full understanding of what led to me making that choice in my case and it's not a bunch of healthy stuff, I can tell you. I traumatized myself by doing it. I traumatized my WH by doing it. I don't have nearly the guilt that he does about his infidelities, but that makes sense to me. He kept up the facade of a happy marriage so that he could screw prostitutes behind my back and exposed me to all manner of emotional and physical dangers for 14 months. My RA was about an hour-long on DDay and I by no means tried to pretend that all was well so that I could go selfishly get my kicks and still have a spouse at home. I was done. I'm not defending my actions. I'm objecting to the very concept that what I did was equal to what he did. It's not remotely, in my opinion.

The problem with this thinking, Dee, is it really truly is Wayward thinking. Waywards think things like "my marriage is already over" when they have an affair. Maybe your W/BH didn't THINK it was over. He didn't want it to be over. He royally screwed up and destroyed his marriage and maybe it should have been over--but it wasn't yet. This is similar to all the other justifications that WSes make. The justification I REALLY hate to hear any wayward make (and which my WW did) was "I thought the marriage was over" or "I thought I was going to divorce you then changed my mind."

That's why you don't cheat. It's why you wait until you ARE divorced, then start new relationships. It's selfish and impatient, no matter the state of the relationship, to cheat without truly knowing what you want.

Anyway. Dee, I'm sure you get a lot of heat for being an MH so I don't want to be harsh. Just trying to share my opinion of those justifications. RA thinking is really no different than WS thinking, except that those having an RA generally have more valid reasons for being unhappy in the M than an original WS.

Oh no worries, I can take the heat. I've actually had some real concerns over my inability to truly regret my RA even though I understand that it was a bad choice on my part that I got no enjoyment out of. My IC and our MC were no help. They both just said it was understandable and that I shouldn't beat myself up too much about it. I don't agree and I want to own it. I know me well enough to know that I wouldn't have cheated on my husband under any other circumstances. He meant so much to me that I couldn't bear to bring him pain. I'm not sure that I'd have registered as a sane person the day I had my RA.

Probably I have too much anger still over his actions to process my own rationally yet. Still...there's a difference between sleeping with a prostitute and coming home to hug your wife and tell her you love her and pretend all is well and to find out that your husband has been cheating on you extensively and in anguish and pain react with an RA. They can both be wrong without being equal.

Randy, I feel your situation is different than the OP"s.

You had your "revenge affair" after a few weeks of dealing with an unremorseful WS,and divorce was happening.

That is different from having a "revenge affair" on a remorseful, doing the work,etc, WS. Which is what he has. They are supposedly working on reconciliation. And he's not planning on telling her. So that also means he gets to remain on his high horse,hold her accountable, and keep his dirty secret to himself.

It's not the same as your situation.

I understand, and if he keeps this from his fiancee, he will go down as a shithead in my book. But infidelity hurts either way, I can't fault him for wanting some sort of justice (maybe she is remorseful, I missed that part). I don't endorse RA's but I understand why people resort to them.

Whats done is done. The most important thing for him is to come clean and really thing this through with his fiancee if a wedding if really a smart move right now.

I'm objecting to the very concept that what I did was equal to what he did. It's not remotely, in my opinion.

Dee, I hope you don't feel as though I am picking on you. I am not. I am trying to get you to really "own it" and "get it". Yes, it is equal to what your WH did. A betrayal is a betrayal. An infidelity is an infidelity.

When you can say that you had an ONS and you don't add any qualifiers to it, either in a post, on paper or even your mind then you truly "get it". You then truly "own it".

SMS,

So if you had an ONS right after DDay, you would feel you had wronged your husband just as much as he wronged you, even though he had a 7 yr affair?

Dee, I hope you don't feel as though I am picking on you. I am not. I am trying to get you to really "own it" and "get it". Yes, it is equal to what your WH did. A betrayal is a betrayal. An infidelity is an infidelity.

When you can say that you had an ONS and you don't add any qualifiers to it, either in a post, on paper or even your mind then you truly "get it". You then truly "own it".

I don't feel picked on, SisterMilkshake. I'm happy and grateful to be challenged on my mindset. 3 months out from DDay has not been my most mentally stable time, lol. I'm still trying to figure out who I am now and stuff like this can help.

I honestly would rather be "as bad as" he was. It would help me not feel like such a fool for staying and such an idiot for being treated that way. My RA was the only reason I could stay. I felt an obligation to help him heal from my actions. It helped teach him how to help me heal, weirdly enough.

Maybe I'll open a thread in the WS forum and get some feedback there too. I'm still not near finding it equal. I betrayed myself by doing it for sure. It's still in my head that had I done it while I thought he was faithful, I'd be feeling horrible about myself. I really don't think that I would have been capable of doing it while he was faithful. I had opportunities and had no trouble at all turning them down flat. Doing it when I discovered his infidelities is different. Not good, but different.

Sorry for threadjacking the crap out of your thread, hurtpenguin!

I have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that they initial cheater didn't intentionally nuke the relationship when they cheated. None of them were so dumb as to think that their spouse would be cool with it or they wouldn't have lied to cover it up. They knew they were nuking it if they got caught. They just didn't care enough about that at the time.

You're right - of course they knew. They just fervently hoped they wouldn't get CAUGHT, is all.

And you were also right - satisfying their own needs absolutely trumped their need to care about us or to do right by us.

So whether their intent was 'malicious' or not doesn't negate the incredible damage they KNEW they could (and DID) cause the second they chose to risk it all for their own selfish gain. So in a way, it actually was done with malice because they had the chance to stop it and didn't.

So, I tend to agree with your outlook, Dee. And I always agree with Randy as I usually do, with his scorched earth approach.

No Mercy, back at ya!

((((DevastatedDee)))) I am not saying you are "bad". You are not a bad person. Your actions were wrong, though.

You may get to a point were you understand the points that many of the veterans here have made about so called "revenge" affairs. A lot of us take issue with using the word "revenge" because that right there is a "qualifier". An affair is an affair. LTA, ONS, or RA. It is still very early in the journey of healing and surviving infidelity for you, Dee.. It takes a lot of time (well, it took me a lot of time) to understand all the nuances of infidelity.

So if you had an ONS right after DDay, you would feel you had wronged your husband just as much as he wronged you, even though he had a 7 yr affair?

Yes, I would feel I wronged him even more so. Knowing the pain I felt I would knowingly inflict that on someone I proclaim to love? Yeah, that is fucked up squared.

Part of me thought the RA would give me clarity, but I still don't know how to feel.

You really thought that having an RA would give you clarity? Having spent time with an IC who we know now did *not* counsel you to have an RA, and having spent time on here, you just figured that all this advice was bollocks because you are the exception to all the rules?

I completely understand why many who posted agree we should not marry. However this is one train that is almost in the station. Had I wanted to halt the marriage I would have done so in April after DDay, not 4 weeks prior to the wedding.

I just imagine my husband saying to me, "What's the big deal that I cheated on you? If I didn't want to be married to you, I'd just have divorced you." And if I didn't immediately impale him with a sharp object, I'd say something like, "When you exposed me sexually without my knowledge or consent, you took away my autonomy and risked my health. When you led on a single woman who was hoping for happily ever after with you, you demonstrated selfishness and a lack of empathy and maturity that I find distasteful and troubling. When you led a double life and hid things from me, you eroded the trust that is the foundation of our marriage."

I understand wanting to even the score and acting on impulse. I'm more concerned with the rationalizations you are making. Blaming your AP for being on the same hookup app that you are on just doesn't cut muster. She isn't hiding a life partner whom she plans to marry in four weeks. You also imply that your WF must surely know you are cheating, so that makes it OK.

It really doesn't bother me that this feels good to you in the moment. Obviously affairs feel good in the moment. I'd like some fun and illicit sex and compliments too, if I made that choice. What concerns me is that when life got tough, you ignored all the good advice you had access to and chose to escape, blame shift, minimize, and act without integrity, and you somehow believed this would help you heal.

You have children and you don't have the luxury of being a man-boy while you pretend you don't have adult responsibilities. "She did it first!" and "She went on a dating app and aggressively pursued me under the impression that me also being on the dating app and also swiping on her somehow meant I was fair game!" do not cut it.

This hole you're digging is not leading anywhere good. Please stop digging, climb out into the sunshine, and start putting things right.

[This message edited by swmnbc at 12:35 PM, September 15th, 2017 (Friday)]

HP- I am going to sidestep judgement on what is/was wrong and skip to where you are now.

How was IC ? Did you have a chance to talk to your BS/WS ?

FWIW- I get the thought process that got you to where you are now. I don't condone it, but I understand it. I've been there myself. You are reaching out for help and I commend you for that.

What is done is done. Where do you go from here ? If you still plan on going through with the M, how to you begin to heal all of the damage so that you and your W can have the M you deserve again ?

Being with another woman and not telling her you're already in a relationship is awful. Sorry, there's no two ways about that. It's a bad thing, dude. The woman is a bystander, an innocent, and she doesn't deserve to be dragged into your situation.

The issue with your fiancee is a thornier one, I think. Obviously everyone will have a subtly different take on it, but personally I don't see it as a black and white, cut and dried thing. We're dealing with shades of grey, here.

Because it ultimately hinges on your own psyche and the way you see yourself and your relationship. It may be that, in the wake of her A, you felt that the only way to restore your relationship was by gaining some sort of parity, by demonstrating to her that you are perfectly able to do what she has done, and deriving from that a sense of Old Testament-style justice.

If, having done that, you are then in a position to R, perhaps there's some logic to it. Obviously, it would be great if everyone could forgive and R without "evening up the scales", so to speak. But humans are flawed and not everyone's mind works the same way.

Of course, your fiancee - when you tell her - may decide she can't handle your RA and leave. She may not. But if having your own experience with someone else was a prerequisite for R for you, then what is there to lose by it?

[This message edited by HeLLz at 11:40 AM, September 15th (Friday)]

You would be insane to get married IMO. I know it sounds bad but I have no skin in the game and am unbiased. There is no way in hell I would ever marry someone after he/she cheated. It is as if they have done you a favor and played their hand before wedding day. And now the MH thing?

No way. I would scratch this whole episode of your life and start anew.